@best-groove, I absolutely do not agree. Further, I think that what you wrote is mean-spirited. When you audition and audition and fall in love with something, that's probably real. And now the OP has said that he's going to practice on an inexpensive cartridge - what could be more sensible than that? Hardly a matter for condescension. IMO.
The best TT system for under 30K
Hi agoners!
I have been floored by Kuzma Stabi XL DC with 4 points TA on a recent audition. It was extremely analog sounding, insane details with speed, beat and clarity that made me wonder if I am listening to a live concert, just can’t help my toe tapping. Was comparing the sound to the top of the line Accuphase CD player with the same rest of system and it was no contest.
Switching from Accuphase CD player to Kuzma XL DC was sounding like adding a pair of subwoofer and going up 2-3 levels on the rest of the system. Mind you the rest of the system was Accuphase E-650 class A integrated that should favor the Accuphase same brand CD player but that wasn’t the case. The speaker was Kerr Acoustics K300 under 10K entry level bookshelf and the sound of the entire entry level system armed with Kuzma XL DC beat the hell out of the entire super high end system the dealer has on the other listening room with Avalon PM3 speakers, Accuphase A-250 monos, Audionet Stern Preamp with Accuphase CD player.
However obviously I cannot afford the whole set of Kuzma XL DC considering I am also in the process of upgrading my existing system. What will be the closest contender in the US$30.000 retail price range that has the same sonic signature as Kuzma XL DC?
Thanks in advance for any advices!!
I have been floored by Kuzma Stabi XL DC with 4 points TA on a recent audition. It was extremely analog sounding, insane details with speed, beat and clarity that made me wonder if I am listening to a live concert, just can’t help my toe tapping. Was comparing the sound to the top of the line Accuphase CD player with the same rest of system and it was no contest.
Switching from Accuphase CD player to Kuzma XL DC was sounding like adding a pair of subwoofer and going up 2-3 levels on the rest of the system. Mind you the rest of the system was Accuphase E-650 class A integrated that should favor the Accuphase same brand CD player but that wasn’t the case. The speaker was Kerr Acoustics K300 under 10K entry level bookshelf and the sound of the entire entry level system armed with Kuzma XL DC beat the hell out of the entire super high end system the dealer has on the other listening room with Avalon PM3 speakers, Accuphase A-250 monos, Audionet Stern Preamp with Accuphase CD player.
However obviously I cannot afford the whole set of Kuzma XL DC considering I am also in the process of upgrading my existing system. What will be the closest contender in the US$30.000 retail price range that has the same sonic signature as Kuzma XL DC?
Thanks in advance for any advices!!
205 responses Add your response
Dear @uwiikz : These are good alternatives for your " learning cartridge. The Windfeld is an ecellent performer at an ecellent price, it can challenge easy the one you bougth with the Kuzma TT: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa51dg-kuzma-car-40-cartridges https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa5791-dynavector-karat-17dx-brand-new-cartridges https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa7gii-ortofon-mc-windfeld-brand-new-cartridges https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa8869-ortofon-cadenza-bronze-cartridges R. |
Cartridge: Disclaimer - I have no recent experience with inexpensive cartridges. But, you fell in love with Miyajima - do they sell an inexpensive one? I have heard and read good things about the Nagaoka line, it is or was the factory recommendation for a good line of turntables. What does your dealer say? Don’t buy used!!! Except from your dealer or another trusted source. Not until you have more experience. May I also suggest an inexpensive alignment protractor, and an inexpensive torque screwdriver? Even an experienced user can tighten one side of the cartridge much more than the other - at least, I have. But not with a torque screwdriver. You don’t have to use the stuff right away, or even ever. Just having it around will help. Imagine using it, get a friend or dealer to show you how, eventually install a $50 cartridge several times. Use it on a record that you don’t value much. And if you never do use the setup equipment, so what? One of my audio friends with a higher end system (but not quite where you are) won’t even think about it. His friends do it for him, and gladly. Good luck and good listening. |
@uwiikz, I am with terry9 on ‘don’t buy used cartridges’. You just never know how others have handled the cart. Being a newbie, you don’t want the headache if it is working or sound they way it should. If you’re going to be playing with carts, then I highly recommend couple of must have accessories, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076DFZDS4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ERPWAK2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://highend-electronics.com/products/nasotec-tweezers https://elusivedisc.com/vinyl-center-hole-reamer/ https://www.amazon.com/Last-Stylus-Cleaner-Stylast-Pkg/dp/B004XDTUS8/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1ULTQI4R9GR51&a... https://www.amazon.com/KAIU-Vinyl-Record-Stylus-Cleaning/dp/B088M9Z2P3/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywo... And remember, no LP goes on spinning platter until it’s cleaned, even the new ones! Your investment in RCM shouldn’t be a afterthought. Welcome to world of analog 😊 |
terry/lalitk : The OP wants a " training " cartridge, second hand is a good option for a " trainer ". In the other side, I bougth top LOMC cartridges second hand through Agon with excellent results. You have to make a little research about the Agon seller through his Agon feedback, you are not buying in blind condition and if you buy using Paypal and what you receive is not what the seller stated you can recovery your money. In over 20´that I bougth here I never had the necessity to confront the seller, always been satisfied with. Agon is a guarantee for that kind of buyers and a very good opportunity to own and listen a top cartridge as the Windfeld for only 1.5K ! ! I know that both of you can buy it new at 5K ( the new Ti. ) but in the link I posted the seller said the cartridge has 50hours of play, is almost not even " settle down ". Why distress audiophiles about? please let us how many second hand cartridges, both of you, bougth in Agon and how many of them were a true " scam"? please show your first hand specific experiences about? About the ultrasonic cleaner terry said " for old records " and if both of you read the Agon thread about that that was said the OP there too. The OP here will buy new records and what I don't understand very well is of you lalitk that posted the Project cleaner and suddenly change your advise in your last post ? ? R. |
Raul, I do not think that a newcomer to the hobby should have to worry about whether or not the cartridge he received is ’as advertised’. The OP is obviously not short of a few dollars, and he can afford to let others worry about that. It’s a cost-convenience tradeoff, with knowledge tipping the scale towards one side or the other. Personally, I would only go with a trusted source - but to date I have only bought new. As for US cleaning, I clearly stated that I US all records, new, NOS, or used, because of contaminants which can be observed on some of them, even new in plastic. Further, after playing a record for a few years, I clean it again. Don’t get enough grunge off to detect it, but I don’t want to risk my stylus. Obviously, you disagree. Fine. Enjoy. |
Terry : I said " old records " because you refered to that " grunge " that does not " comes " in the new ones and that’s all. As for used or new cartridges these are two options as other audio options: tube or SS, BD or DD, LT or pivoted. You go for new only good noproblem about but I think that trying to desqualify or dimish the other alternative is only a " limitation " and this is your audio way of life and that’s why I understand your attitude. Never mind, it’s not something to " live or die " for. R. PS: That Windfeld could be a challenge for your Kotsu too and only 1.5K. I'm not looking for a cartridge for me if not I bougth it with out doubt. Yes, this is me. |
Can’t go wrong with a Lyra Delos around $2K. If you end up buying a turntable from Upscale Audio you can buy the Delos with it for around $1.4k. If you like it there are 3 Lyra models up the ladder. The Kleos $3.7k The Etna $9k The Atlas $12k The discounts also apply to them and all other carts they sell. No affiliation just a satisfied customer of a recent VPI and Lyra Kleos. |
I also smile when people jump straight to a top of the class without having accumulated experience in small steps. If you prefer to use that analogy, well... my first sport car was a 2012 Porsche 997 GT2RS and that was immediately after driving slow JK Wrangler. I didn’t crash making use of that 623 WHP and I had loads of fun. Some people just have money to burn and smart enough not to destroy what that money bought. I hate bickering on forum but what’s up with the hate? It’s my money and my system. |
@uwiikz Some folk have to find fault with product they cant afford or are not prepared to invest in. At the end of the day you have purchased an outstanding turntable package. I have spent much time with the Kuzma 4Point11 tonearm, and the great thing about it is that it a very easy arm to set up and adjust. If you want to play with other cartridges you can purchase additional headshells from Kuzma so that your alternate cartridges can be changed quickly and easily. Please bear in mind the Kuzma arm is a high mass arm ( effective mass 18g ) and so that means that the alternate cartridges should be medium to low compliance = this would suggest low compliance moving coils or low to medium compliance moving magnets. The Soundsmith range includes low compliance moving iron cartridges that would work well. you will need some set up tools to change cartrdiges - I use the Feickert protractor for cartridge alignment, its very easy to use, and you will need a tracking force gauge. Make sure the dealer provides you the complete toolset (allen keys et ) that comes with the tonearm & turntable. I know you will enjoy the music - at the end of the day thats the goal. Enjoy. |
| Post removed |
My humble apology for the rest of the wonderful gentlemen that contribute in positive manner on this thread. I don’t mean to downgrade this wonderful thread with my anger but this 4$$h4t$ really get into my nerve. Anyone that hope somebody killed in a car crash publicly are not worth to be considered human in my book. That’s really way too much. @best-groove you are welcome to come to Indonesia if you want to see what I am capable of. |
@uwiikz Wow how much unnecessary bitterness!!! I am not hurting anyone, you have misrepresented my words and you have put fantasies in your head that I have never said. I’m sorry for you man but you don’t really know how to accept jokes and you have turn them into resentments ... I think you are a man with little humor for not taking life with joy but if I hurt your pride I apologize ... |
It’s not about my pride, I have nothing to prove to this forum. I do what I do and ask what I ask and that’s it. And no I don’t misinterpret your words, English might not be my mother tongue but I know I can read and understand English better than many native English speaker. What humor???? If you call that a humor then you are the one who need to look at the mirror. Your so called joke was about my death crashing Lamborghini. Is that what you call joke? That is you hoping that I will die crashing my Lamborghini. If you just upgraded to Pagani Huayra after your Hyundai broke down and I tell you that you will crash and kill/hurt yourself would you stay calm and not angry? Look at the mirror man.... |
Hunday?!! Lol a true rich gentleman you say you are doesn’t write all those things, it’s very likely a "parvenu", but it doesn’t matter I laugh and go on. We were discussing turntables the lamborghini was just a very trivial and stupid example, an example not Associated with your car, but I don’t want to insist anymore, if you want to understand you understand, but if you don’t want to understand, arrange yourself. I can’t insist if your head is hard. :( |
Yea I have a good life. 75 employees, 2nd and 3rd villas in Bali, 4th condo In Vancouver, come to the office once or twice a month, wake up at 10 am everyday, ideal bodyweight, 120/70 blood pressure, 3 wonderful kids, a wife that loves me to death, 2 full time maids serving the family, 2 full time drivers driving us wherever we wanna go, one personal assistant, parents that loves me more than anything else all at the mere age of 40. So adios amigos and enjoy your hard life |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Hunday?? You can’t even spell correctly. It shows that you are uneducated. I never claim I am rich, I am well off...yes, rich?? Absolutely not. Bezos is rich, I am just well off. Parvenu?? Yes I am not ashamed to admit I am Parvenu, at least I get my income from hard work and perseverance not from inheritance. |
@whart you are 100% correct and thank you very much for your wise words. I am a member in many other automotive forums forum such as HDforums, iH8mud, Chevytalk, trifive, mustang forum, Rennlist, Reefcentral, MV Agusta, Ducati, etc. I am a hobby buff since long. I use the same nickname Uwiik/Uwiikz almost everywhere. Anybody can see my posts on the many forums I am a member and everyone can see In my decade of digital trace that I have never ever even once start a fight nor bickering back and forth in any forum. What @best-groove implied on his first insult was the most condescending with vaguely implied threat towards my very life. I admit he got the best of me for once ever in my various forum life, even his “fake” apology was still accompanied by more insults which off course I cannot forgive so I have no choice but to stop his insults by suing him if necessary. If that have to happen, I know I have slim chance of winning in court but knowing that person having to go back and forth to court countless time not to mention the cost of his lawyer while I can just sit back and relax letting my lawyer do the legwork in US is good enough for me. One can insult me anyway they can like I said I deal a lot with politicians my patience and tolerance level is very high, but if one threaten my life even by vague implication I am prepared to go all out to give a lesson to that person. |
My humble apology if the wonderful gentlemen here are dumbfounded by what happened above. That wasn’t my intention at all and I actually regret responding to that person not worth my time. I hope this thread can continue with many more informative posts for many other members information that might be in the same situation as me. Peace ✌️ |
@whart @terry9 @lalitk and many other I cannot mention here, in the spirit of more positive posts here is my choice for cartridge which the dealer have on stock: - Miyajima Kansui it is what currently fitted and the dealer is willing to sell that to me at 60% discount from RRP. He will even let me to bring my microscope to inspect the needle (any pointers on how to inspect?) - Miyajima Madake used once for a weekend long in a 2019 home audio show for 40% off RRP - Miyajima Destiny brand new with 30% discount because I bought the whole set from him - Linn Krystal brand new for $1300 nett I am leaning towards the demo Kansui or the used once Madake for the keeper and Linn Krystal for me to learn with. |
@uwiikz-- I too was involved in several different Internet chat groups, reflecting an array of interests. From them, I actually made a few friends in real life. At its best, these boards serve a function beyond answering technical questions, or providing needed "how to" info -- there is a sense of shared community, a bond that exists among the members that goes beyond their common interest in a particular subject. There was a member here who recently passed away, and everyone said the same thing-- he was knowledgeable and never foolish, and never engaged in mud slinging. I think he was well loved because he was knowledgeable and always took the high road, As to legal claims, the Internet and the like: I am a lawyer- I practiced in NYC for 34+ years, specializing in copyright. I had a fair amount of involvement in the Internet early on in some of the foundational cases and beyond. I also helped a well-known board focused on Ferraris gratis because I liked the board and some of the folks who were regulars there- I will tell you there were some great people there, and some who were...well, not so great. It could be a mosh pit sometimes. My best advice to you is simply to let it go and move on. Illegitimi non carborundum. There is a dealer in NZ named Jason Parmenter who I haven't spoken with in years, but we shared some interest in the same gear. Stay in touch and let us know of your adventures. You can always start a new thread about cartridges, arm adjustments, etc. as you progress. |
About the wonderful member who recently passed away, was it Dan (Jdandy)? I read a lot of his posts on the other forum and yes he is one hell of a guy. I cannot help feeling sad when I read through his thousands of posts, what a journey. From the old time when he still have his wife Marlene, her passing and eventually Dan’s own passing. Although I am new I cannot help feeling sad reading all about it. |
@uwiikz, looks like you did it all yourself. You found the dealer, you found the bargain, you identified the cartridges. And made good decisions. All you needed to know was, "In the light of experience, does this make sense?" The answer was overwhelmingly, "Yes." Well done you. I would listen carefully to the Kansui at the dealer's and ask him to mount the Mandake while you watch him, make notes, and ask questions. Then choose the one you prefer - but err on the side of smooth - don't go for sizzle. Sizzle gets wearing, as you are doubtless aware. |
I am convinced now that I've upgraded to a Fatboy Arm on my VPI Aries that the two most important parts of a vinyl audio system are the arm and the phono preamp. All the 4Point suggestions are really spot on. One of the best arms available. Then I'd suggest a Lamm LP2.1. Those two elements will give you a foundation to enjoy a huge range of turntables and cartridges at different price levels to completely you setup. Those two components will allow for anything you surround it with to sound awesome. Have fun with this purchase! |
WONDERFUL NEWS!! I got quite familiar and friendly with the dealer and he threw in the Miyajima Kansui used on the demo unit completely free of charge. I am happier than happy right now. Right now I am negotiating with the dealer if it’s possible for him to come setup the Kuzma today. I just don’t have the patience to wait until my custom table is finished. Ordering some LP from local internet store. Just for fun, we in Indonesia have this wonderful online marketplace called Tokopedia, it is literally better than Amazon Prime, it’s like Amazon NOW instead of Amazon Same day, I can get what I order in 1-2 hours... it’s crazy. |
Coming in an hour, it’s 8pm here.... I am very excited, he is going to set it up immediately too. Aaaaaand he will also bring Accuphase E-650 and Kerr Acoustic K300 to leave in my home while waiting for my Accuphase C2850, Accuphase A-250 and Kerr Acoustic K100 to arrive. I guess we will be staying up very late today. |
Plugged into my C22 I have to crank the volume to 12 o'clock position for any decent volume, mismatched gain? The sound however was night and day, it's a lot more real and improvement was everywhere, background was pitch black, even my very shy tweeter started to sing, low level listening and dynamic was only ok though. Don't get me wrong, the improvement by adding Kuzma to my C22 + MC75 was supremely major, maybe I was just a bit too critical. One thing for sure though, the gain mismatch is a major pain and I think it affect a lot in negative way. I then switched to Accuphase E-650 (dang this thing is heavy) with the Kuzma DC XL still with the same SF Guarneri Evolution speakers and everything immediately opens up. I can hear again another major improvement in every factor especially speed, dynamics and low level listening suddenly became insanely nice. I can hear every detail, punch and nuances even at a very low level of volume. I haven't got the chance to really test it with normal listening level (75-85db for me) because my wife fell asleep and I pissed her enough already by having the nice technician until 11 pm, she had to sleep in the kid's room only to move to our bedroom after the tech left, off course I did all the Covid protocol before and after. But dang she was really pissed....LOL...I'll let her sleep it off. |
uwiikz Plugged into my C22 I have to crank the volume to 12 o'clock position for any decent volume, mismatched gain? The sound however was night and day, it's a lot more real and improvement was everywhere, background was pitch black ...As long as your preamp can drive your amplifier to maximum or desired output, the position of the preamp's gain control is irrelevant. |
Dear @uwiikz : Good that like it at your place even with out the K300. " Kerr Acoustic K100 to arrive. " You said in other thread that you want it a 3-way speaker as the K100, good. Now the K100 is a passive speakerand has a litle " problem " because its crossover 370hz and that means that that woofer is handling at the same time bass frequencies as could be 20hz ( example only. ) where the woofer has excursions/osciations that does not stop immediatly and at the same time is reproducing vital frequencies from 100hz to 400hz where those woofer 20hz-40hz excursions affects directly the quality level performance of the upper frequencies handled by that same woofer. So exist a high IMD and obviously a high THD in those vital frequencies, vital for quality levels to achieve top quality levels. In the other side the speakers will be connected to an amplifier that too is handling all the frequency range. Look at this agoner room/system: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615 which are the mains differences with yours? you can think everything, well yes but the main differences are: a very high audio/MUSIC knowledge levels of its owner and that those speakers are active ones. Let me explain on it and what I said it before: in a home audio room/system the MUSIC belongs at the bass range frequencies as better the this frequency range as better the whole room/system quality levels no matters what. Each one of the speakers in that link comes with a self powered subwoofer where happens many good things: first the woofers where designed to handle exactly the very demanding frequencies below 100hz, this is that the woofers/drivers are dedicated ones for those specific frequencies that gives you a lot lower THD and alond IMD. The amps inside those woofers are too designed/dedicated to work in precise way for those bass frequencies and for those woofers it self. Again lower THD/IMD. No one " universal " amp can handle in more precise way the subs woofers as its dedicated amp that was builded in specific to that kind of task. This means that no matters which amp or amps will be handled the K100 just can't do it as well and with that quality levels as the subs does and obviously that the K100 woofers can't do it against the subs ones. If you don't mind my advise is to buy a pair of K300 along two self powered subs with high-pass crossing at around 80hz to the K300. In this way that crucial bass range will shines enough and permits to the other frequency ranges performs better than ever trhough the K300 main/satellite speakers. Even not only will outperforms easily to the K100 but any other price no object passive speakers. Using subs in a MUSIC room/system is not for augmernt the bass response but to lower DISTORTIONS down there. Looking to your room is evident for me that either with the K100 or the K300+subs that room needs a room treatment including floor and certainly a TT better position and if you can that screen/TV must goes out. Last and not the least important issue is that after the first overall system set up you need a room measurements frequency response. Today almost all subs comes with this facility. That's what I will do it if I was you that I'm not. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Nice to hear that the Kuzma sounds so good in your own home. That’s the critical test - when you can take your time to determine what you really like. @cleeds is right, as long as your volume control can deliver as much volume as you want, and noiselessly, then it doesn’t matter where the control indicates. My own volume control on my DIY preamp, usually resides at 3 o’clock - sometimes 1, sometimes 5 - designed that way. I have enough gain for a low output MC, enough sensitivity for a MM. |
