I have an original XL with 2 motors and the Airline arm, and upgraded from a Kuzma Reference with Triplanar. There was a world of difference in presentation- mainly in the absence of the sense of a turntable spinning. You don’t know it until it is gone-- I call it a "halo" effect--something people seem to assume is part of the record playing experience. I attribute that to both the table and the arm.
In terms of cheaper options, what about used? You can always upgrade the motors later)(I still haven’t done it and probably won’t until the original motors fail)-- I’ve had my table since around 2006 or 2007. Except for changing out a belt, lubricating once I drained the bearing well to move my household, and having Franc do some work on the inner platter, which he ultimately replaced for me--it was rubbing-- the table has performed flawlessly. There are other tables, some priced higher, that don’t make me want to change at this point.
One table that has long interested me is the Platine Verdier-- it is now sold as a "nouvelle" model, I gather the original was a killer with some tweaks. The newer model may not have issues, and is worth looking at or researching in more depth--it is similar in the sense that it is no suspension and high mass, external motor ’pod" and allows multiple arms like the XL.
One other issue that you may have to sort with tables like this is isolation.
I have not had the table on concrete slab but typically set up in older houses, wooden floors, etc. High mass isn’t easy to manage for that purpose and I had to buy a Minus K iso platform in my new location, given the weight of the table/arm and the inability to isolate it from a wooden floor via a wall mount.
I do have a 4 Pt 9" in my vintage system mounted on a period Technics SP-10 and it does deliver- no on the fly VTA like the bigger 4 Pt. models (and the Airline). I had the 4 Pt 9 set up to do side by side comparisons with the Airline and preferred the latter on my main table/system. |
As I mentioned upthread, I had a Kuzma Reference and upgraded to the XL some time ago. The XL is a better table and its "sound" is better because there is less of it (you aren't hearing as many artifacts of vinyl playback). The bass is also extremely good, goes very deep, and that with an air bearing arm which is not an arm design known for pronounced bass.
I'm not saying the Kuzma is better than any other table but you asked about a house sound. The point, to me, is to be utterly absent as part of the presentation. And you don't appreciate that until you don't hear it. Short of the XL, the M would probably be a good table, lower in price, but I have no hands on experience with it. Kuzma does support his product well. I've talked to Franc many times, as well as his importer/distributor here in the States, Scot Markwell. I don't know your territory and players so I can't speak to what can be had there which competes, offers a better value and is similar to what you heard.
I also use a vintage SP-10 with a Kuzma 4 Pt. 9" in my vintage system and it is more table than the system requires in some ways.
Ultimately, the table/arm/cartridge and phono stage make up the front end and variables including the wire could affect the sound. I'm currently using stone bodied Koetsus on my main table- the XL and they work fantastically with the Airline. There are of course other cartridges and arms that you may prefer. You are in control of this- based on due diligence, such as you are doing here. Getting a chance to listen to a particular set up in a dealer's room is better than nothing, but it still isn't the same as your system/room. Set up is part of it too and can make a significant difference in performance.
Have fun with this.
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-@lalitk I’ve had this system, in roughly this form, sans those woofers, for a long time. The Lamms I’ll probably never part with; the Avantgarde is not cost effective these days and if I have to replace, I may go another route. Yes, the big woofers made a difference, but believe it or not, those Koetsus really made a difference in the bass. Previously, I had (in order) a Lyra Titan I, an Airtight PC-1 and Airtight Supreme with this system (at the time I set it up I had the original Parnassus with the platinum magnets but it was dated).
All were "good" cartridges, but the Koetsu really gave me something the others didn’t-- fully fleshed out bass with tonality and a 3d quality that wasn’t boomy or bloated but taut and articulate with the same kind of holographic quality their cartridges are known for in the midrange.
I think this, too, is a system variable with arm and the rest of the system that can exceed expectations or disappoint, depending on the system as a whole. In my case, they worked synergistically and make the woofers sing. Thanks for the nice words about the system. I spend most of my time, money and effort on records rather than gear these past several years and get a lot of enjoyment from listening. |
Good for you, @uwiikz. I’d recommend that you pay to have the dealer do the initial set up for you. Yes, it is good to know how to do this yourself, but your first go round with this table (or lacking recent experience with TT set up generally) really mandates that. And, I say offer to pay only b/c he’s selling the unit to you without making much if anything. Be sure you have the warranty. Franc Kuzma is a stand up guy but it is still important to have a local contact--
The only aspect of this that I question is how much mileage is on the cartridge- without undermining the offer the dealer made, I’d prefer something fresh since a used demo cartridge is going to be a question mark. Obviously, that can be replaced if it already has mileage on it, at a cost, but these do not last forever and in fact, wear more quickly than claimed by many manufacturers, assuming no damage by use. Otherwise (and I’m not trying to rob you of the pleasure of your deal, I think you’ll enjoy the XL), congratulations.
One last thing that goes less to the transaction and more to set up is isolation, which I mentioned upthread. The XL is metal, and very heavy. You need to situate it on a sturdy platform that can not only support the weight but is unaffected by footfalls, vibration, etc. and is ergonomically sensible for your system. I’d give a little thought to that because before I bought the Minus K for mine (which isn’t cheap), I had to resort to a few tricks to mass load and isolate the platform on which my table sat when I first got it. It was tricky.
+ @ferrari275 for your comments and user name- one of my favorite body designs, apart from the ’50s cars. I had quite a few of the little red cars from Modena, but none that early. I got to see Sergio Scaglietti dribble cigarette ash into some of the cars he built at a show where he was the honored guest, watching the owners of the cars cringe, but say nothing, having the man who fabricated the body (or in many cases design and fabricate) sit in their respective cars for photo shoots. |
My pleasure. Enjoy it. I think you will be happy and will not need to upgrade anything for a long time on that front. Hi, @terry9 ! (uwiikz, Terry9 is a very good contributor here who I haven't spoken to in a while).
Bill Hart |
@chakster - I think your taking shots at the high end through this new user's thread is a little misplaced. You seem to know old MM cartridges well based on what I've seen and that's a valuable contribution. The turntable this person bought is a good one based on my experience with it. Perhaps you should take your own advice, to the effect "that there is not such things as "best" for everyone, you can only try and compare yourself." The poster did get to hear the table and is buying the set up at what is apparently a good price. Don't begrudge him that. |
As I've gotten older, Inna, I have less need to be "right." The process is more interesting than the result in some cases, which may be one explanation for audiophilia. |
We are limited as much by what we know as what we don't. |
@uwiikz-- this is why I only post on web fora occasionally. Bad S/N ratio.
You got what you came for and you did good. Let us know how it works out, what cartridges you play with, etc. You don’t have to play back and forth with folks that want to argue. It is pointless.
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@uwiikz-- I too was involved in several different Internet chat groups, reflecting an array of interests. From them, I actually made a few friends in real life.
At its best, these boards serve a function beyond answering technical questions, or providing needed "how to" info -- there is a sense of shared community, a bond that exists among the members that goes beyond their common interest in a particular subject. There was a member here who recently passed away, and everyone said the same thing-- he was knowledgeable and never foolish, and never engaged in mud slinging. I think he was well loved because he was knowledgeable and always took the high road,
As to legal claims, the Internet and the like:
I am a lawyer- I practiced in NYC for 34+ years, specializing in copyright. I had a fair amount of involvement in the Internet early on in some of the foundational cases and beyond. I also helped a well-known board focused on Ferraris gratis because I liked the board and some of the folks who were regulars there- I will tell you there were some great people there, and some who were...well, not so great. It could be a mosh pit sometimes.
My best advice to you is simply to let it go and move on. Illegitimi non carborundum.
There is a dealer in NZ named Jason Parmenter who I haven't spoken with in years, but we shared some interest in the same gear.
Stay in touch and let us know of your adventures. You can always start a new thread about cartridges, arm adjustments, etc. as you progress.
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@uwiikz-- couple comments about your room and set up if you don’t mind.
First, it looks like you have hard tile floor- those tend to be reflective. A nice rug will change that without absorbing too much energy;
Second, speaker placement. I know some people use their stereo for TV viewing, which may explain your set up, but at least cover the screen when you do critical audio listening. The screen is reflective and can mess with the image. I don’t like over damped rooms, but shifted away from having anything between the speakers, including gear rack-- which is on a side wall. (the amps are adjacent to the speakers but sit low and I run long interconnect).
Some people disagree that having the equipment rack between the speakers is significant, but at a minimum, I find it to be a distraction.
Jim Smith’s Better Sound has a lot of good no cost suggestions for room set up and you should be able to get it via Amazon.
Glad you got the table and arm set up. What cartridge did you have installed? |
@uwiikz- sounds like you are on the right track in dealing with the room; to me, parquet would be better than tile, but is still a hard surface; I have wooden floors covered with a large old Persian rug.
I use bass traps in various corners, have fairly thick cellular or honeycomb type window shades to deal with the glass in the side windows-- the front wall has large windows that are covered first by a thick somewhat absorptive material similar to sail cloth, with several layers of curtains heavily bunched together over them-- it's enough to eliminate that window as a factor. Do read Jim Smith's book- he does in-room set ups at people's homes for a fee and a lot of basics are covered in the book (travel expenses would exceed his fee in your case), but the more familiar you are with your own system in your room, the better you can dial it in; my system took a few years to get right when I lived in NY and when I moved to Texas, and had a new to me room in an old house, I had a pretty good idea of how it would lay out. It still took time to dial it in though-- through measuring, listening and moving the speakers in slight increments. So, by the time you have readied your dedicated room, you'll probably have more experience with the system, what it can do and where its weaknesses are. Small changes can make big differences in set up, particularly with turntables and speaker positioning in the room.
I don't like over damped rooms with too much treatment- they sound too dead to me. You'll find a balance, the more you listen the more you become accustomed to what the equipment can do and if you are willing to experiment a little, you can optimize positioning.
The turntable does require something that is not susceptible to footfalls and it is very heavy, as you know. If you look at my system page, you'll see how I have it mounted on an HRS platform, which in turn, sits on a big Minus K isolation platform. Franc sells an active isolation device but it isn't really meant to deal with footfalls- he assumes you'd be on a concrete slab but the active devices are typically used to improve the overall performance of the equipment by isolation. Mike Lavigne, who is probably one of the best known members here, has done a deep dive on these things and would be a good source of information about them if you are curious. Just note that they won't solve a footfall problem; the Minus K will. |
