The best TT system for under 30K


Hi agoners! 

I have been floored by Kuzma Stabi XL DC with 4 points TA on a recent audition. It was extremely analog sounding, insane details with speed, beat and clarity that made me wonder if I am listening to a live concert, just can’t help my toe tapping. Was comparing the sound to the top of the line Accuphase CD player with the same rest of system and it was no contest. 

Switching from Accuphase CD player to Kuzma XL DC was sounding like adding a pair of subwoofer and going up 2-3 levels on the rest of the system. Mind you the rest of the system was Accuphase E-650 class A integrated that should favor the Accuphase same brand CD player but that wasn’t the case. The speaker was Kerr Acoustics K300 under 10K entry level bookshelf and the sound of the entire entry level system armed with Kuzma XL DC beat the hell out of the entire super high end system the dealer has on the other listening room with Avalon PM3 speakers, Accuphase A-250 monos, Audionet Stern Preamp with Accuphase CD player. 

However obviously I cannot afford the whole set of Kuzma XL DC considering I am also in the process of upgrading my existing system. What will be the closest contender in the US$30.000 retail price range that has the same sonic signature as Kuzma XL DC? 

Thanks in advance for any advices!!
uwiikz

Showing 18 responses by rauliruegas

uwiikz : I wonder where is your mentor you named?

Please do it a favor ( is up to you. ) and ask your self how camn you truly make an audio item evaluation quality performance levels in that overall set up where still is the TV screen, non adequated room treatment, changing audio items every day evry 2 minutes,. What in reality are you evaluating if any? As I said is up to you but makes no sense to follow that same path/road  full of obstacles ( read mistakes ). You will arrives " no-where ".

R.
Dear @uwiikz : I already posted something I will post again. With all respect you are a " panacea " / " crowns jewel " for any audio distributor because you are an analog new comer with $$$ and nothing else, your analog knowledge levels is poor because you did not have enough time ( years. ) to learn so you are making mistake after mistakes: your mistakes and your money too.

Do you know why exist a phono stage?, I will repeat again:

first than all to MIMIC the RIAA eq. curve used in the recording LP process. This is the main and more critical an important reason why exist phono stages units.

MIMIC means that the inverse heavy RIAA eq. in any phono stage must and should be permiting that the after the RIAA inside the phono stage the cartridge signal be accurately FLAT with both channels ( L/R. ) doing the same and with the same level of inverse RIAA eq. deviation.

The analog manufacturers and the true audiophiles and music lovers know very well those issue and today that inverse RIAA eq. deviation can’t be hiogher than 0.1db.

Things are that Jadis alond the Aries has a swing over 0.4db ! ! Truly bad, even Parasound 3k price unit outperform it and with lower noise levels . The FM 223 only 0.03db, that’s engeenering to the MUSIC/sounds service home reproduction.


""" The problem now is, after I put my Kuzma on steroids with the addition of external Phono and SUT my digital front end with Mola Mola Tambaqui sounds like mini compo radio compared to the Kuzma. What to do oh what to do . """

Nothing wrong with digital the problem is your analog electronics that are developing extremely high distortions ( every kind. ) levels that digital does not but seems to me that you like those kind of distortions that kind of fake sound so stay with, is your privilege. Btw,those " all imperfections "# with your LPs are " voiced loudly " because what I’m posting here.

If you don’t stop with your attitude of an " alone child in a full candies store " you can’t learn ever. This is not my opinion but a fact.

Btw, """   beautiful analog setup.. """, really?. Your analog set up is terrible when the TT is not in the rigth platform need it and is side by side to the speaker back and side vents bass woofers sound/Power. Just terrible contamination/degradation.

R.

Dear @uwiikz :  Good that him is ok.

""  If you attend to a MUSIC live event ( example only. ) where you are seated at near field position and listen to put attention that that MUSIC performance at real SPL is: agressive, brigthness, extremely fast transients, full of power, extreme dynamics, transparent with natural color, very well balanced , even some times a horn we can listen its hardness, timing and full of emotions.   "

I posted that because at " near field " position is whre recording microphones are seated and that kind of sound is what pick-up and in our room/system listening to the digital or analog alternative our main target should be to stay nearer to the recording, that's what even far away is the only way to approach live MUSIC.

That's is my room/system target but almost any single audiophile has his own targets.

R.
Dear @uwiikz : A mix up from my parte about my " passive " crossover filter inside my amps.

It’s wrong, it’s not passive but an active one. Its operation is inside the input active amp circuits that as all designs use some passive parts and here was my mix up.

As I posted before almost all prefers to go with active crossover designs, me too.

It does not matters which subwoofers you decide to buy my advise is that you put the audio signal in the K300 through the Bryston external active crossover or the one you like it.


On the phono stage here what Valin "  the analog man/reviewer " in TAS think about FM Acoustics:


https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/fm-acoustics-resolution-series-fm-155-mkiir-preamp-fm-122-...


R.


Dear @uwiikz : in the orther thread you posted:

"   I have to admit that I miss a bit of tube sweetness particularly on mid. "

well, yes because you are accustom to. That was my mind too when I switch ( after 10 year I have tube electronics. ) to SS and over time I learned that I was not wrong when I decided to go for SS that by a wide margin puts you or any music lover ( not hardware lovers as the tube audiophiles. ) nearer to the recording, it  is way faitfully to that where tubes just can't do it at the same quality levels.

SS electronics in top good designs comes with very wide frequency response at around 1Mhz+ and for very good reasons, are really low noise units and comes with extremely low distortions of any kind. It's a new world just you need time to take in count about, you can't do it in just one week and certainly not in a system that is not the definitive one where almost " day by day " is changing. 

When any one want to evaluates the SS against tube kind of sound always wants that the SS electronics comes with at least a little signature of the tube sound they are accustom too and this kind of attitude is totally wrong because both electronic alternatives are way way different ( like digital vs analog. ) and today SS are way superior just because is way better electronic alternative.

If you attend to a MUSIC live event ( example only. ) where you are seated at near field position and listen to  put attention that that MUSIC performance at real SPL is: agressive, brigthness, extremely fast transients, full of power, extreme dynamics, transparent with natural color, very well balanced , even some times a horn we can listen its hardness, timing and full of emotions.

Then compare it against a home audio system that the best can shows is to puts us nearer to the recording and SS outperforms easily any tube electronics and believe me I'm not biased through one way or the other I'm biased with the MUSIC and how should be sound/performs at home and nothing else.

FM Acoustics is a name I 'm in love for many many years. As a fact when we were in the design and build of our phonolinepreamp the targets I defined were that our unit could outperform any phonolinepreamp in the market or at least been a serious challenge for any units including FM Acoustics that I tested several times thank's to the dealer here that was my friend ( today he is not dedicated to sale audio any more. ) and I tested several other brands in my system and in other top systems with top analog rigs.

You asked: FM Acoustics or Accuphase? I have not to think about to give you the answer: FM Acoustics with out any doubt.

M. Huber designer and owner of FM just play in a diferent " league ". No single electronic design can beats FM ones, coul be a reference for any audio electronics designers.

In the other side and talking about the crossover several gentlemans think that active electronics is a better option than a passive one and in some ways could be true but depends of the passive design ( that must be extremely " simple " ) and the passive selection parts in the design ( this issue is critical. ).

Now, I did what I dit it at the input of my ampliers do that my monobloks are coupled at the input by one capacitor  and thank's to that and after found out how to keep the amp boards diagrams finally I did it just changing that input cap for another cap with a way  smaller  capacitance value followed by changing a resistor for different value that already been in that board. So, I'm lucky enough to do it but before that I did it through extrenal active crossover as Bryston, Threshold, the one in the Velodynes and other options.

So, in reality I don't did it " nothing " but  improved the quality level performance of the monobloks it self with that cap/resistor of very high quality compared with the stock ones ! ! along the desired crossover frequency.

I don't know which could be the kind of passive design your " man " can do it but yes it's an option and you can try it but you need a way for compare against other alternative and the only one could be the one that comes in the subwoofer crossover.

Perhaps the best and only alternative to active crossover than the Bryston is this:

https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/electronic-crossovers/fm-330-series/

R.
Dear @uwiikz : I know you are really impatient/anxious in this new audio world for you in this new and very long trip full of opportunities and full of obstacles that want it or not you as all of us time to time make not one but several mistakes/falls. All those is part of the day by day learning.

You have a very wise dealer that puts in front of you to many excellent " candies for a child " ( like those A-250. ) that the " child " can’t refuse to eat.

You started this thread less than a week ago and rigth know you already made it your first system up-grade: to Miyajima Madake from Kansui, ", well that’s the way you are and the way audio is.

Now and " looking " of what you want and you are doing your next main action is to choose those 2 subwoofers ( yes always must be 2 and never only one. ).
It’s the most critical link in the system chain in the short and long time: we normally make changes in our systems through the years, changes in amps, cartridges, TT, CDP, cables, tonearms but subwoofers where these units normally lives almost for ever with us.

In the other side and I repeat again: we integrate subwoofers in our room/system not mainly to increment the bass low response ( that’s a good side line. ) but to improve the whole QUALITY level performance of that room/system and what we are listening at it.

The best room/systems are those that have the best bass range management/performance. Every thing good or wrong that happens in that frequency range modulates for the good or wrong all the system quality response.
Bass range quality is the most important frequency range in any room/system no matters what.

Rel is a bad choice, first because his response is very poor: -6db at 19hz and its THD is over 5% in the other side is a reflex design instead acoustic suspension that’s lower in distortions and with better overall response: tigther bass.

Of course that you have the Rel dealer at your place and knowing you when you can test it you will pull the triger. Do it a favor and don’t do it yet. Listen to it to learn a little about subs. Anyway you can buy it if you want, your choice.

" REL’s does a far better job of ‘disappearing’ and gelling with your main speakers. "

that statement is not only false but shows the low knowledge level that that gentleman has with the subs specific issue.

Look, if we have a good integration subs inside our room/system all subs " disappears ", period .

Years ago and way before in the high end forums audiophiles talked about subwoofers to listen stereo MUSIC ( people think that subs were for HT. ) I learned my first hand experiences and through several tests in my system and other systems till I learned that subwoofers is a true critical necessity in any " decent " stereo MUSIC room/system. In those years I started a thread in Agon here a highlight about that always is of interest for any audiophile that cares about MUSIC and quality reproduction of that MUSIC:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058

I tested several subs including Rel and finished my " voyage " with a pair of Velodyne HGS-15 self powered subs that still today I’m enjoying and thatI don’t change it for any other in today market.

Velodyne has a patent for the subwoofer ( sealed/acoustic suspension design. ) can performs at below 20hz and over 100db SPL with an outstanding 0.5% THD, not even today any sub can be not even near that figure.
Velodyne subs sense over 20K times each second the woofer excursions to impede the THD goes higher than that incredible spec. This spec permits that you have the best quality level bass response coming from the Velodyne and that no other subwoofer design for home system use can shows you.

No, you can’t reach Velodyne because it’s not any more in business but making a little internet research I found out that thi’s an unexpected source for the last and latest Velodyne subwoofer design the DD-15.

""" I am concerned if blending the sub perfectly will be tough without built in room correction and I like the idea of cutting the frequency going to main speaker.. """

good that you are concerned about because that room correction is a must to have in the subs. Well this Velodyne has it and has a high-pass filter too:

https://www.referenceaudiovideo.net/velodynedd15.html

are the only units all over the world.I don’t know if the seller/dealer can ship to your country and I don’t know if you can wait for it. It’s worth to have these Velodyne subwoofers, big rewards for you and MUSIC.

Important issue: I think that before you start with the overall room treatment wait till you have in place your subwoofers, the ones you decided to buy: is up to you. Normally the 80% of the room treatment has a direct relationship with the bass range, it’s what it really counts.

Other main subject you have to take in count for optimum subwoofer quality levels is if you will integrate it using the subwoofer crossover to split the signal to the K300 or use an active external crossover for the K300.

If I was you my choice will be to make it through the Bryston ( the Accuphase looks very good too but works in the digital domain. ) external crossover and please let me explain about:

first Bryston is a first grade electronic manufacturer for many years, quality  levels of the design is excellent.
second is that the Bryston unit has alternatives to choose the best one that fulfill the K300 frequency response needs that can mates the best with the subs you choosed.

You can choose between 6db, 12db or 18db crossover filter slopes where the first order ( 6db. ) is very convenient because you have no phase problems as with the higher slope order ones that are the ones that normally comes in the sub crossover.

It comes with an attenuator for the main speakers/K300 .
It’s a dual mono design, all separated for each channel.
Has several selectable high-pass frequency of your choice. I think you will need to test between 80hz and 100hz for the K300.

The subwoofers crossovers don’t comes with all those kind of alternatives and the quality electronics of its designs even that is good has not the high quality level like in the Bryston dedicated unit.

In the other side the subs has two options to be connected: one trhough the Bryston and the other is directly from the preamp if this unit comes with two output connectors and this is the best way to connect the subs: directly from the preamp.

Exist the very best way to make the K300 crossover and this way is how I wired/connected my whole system:

I did it with out active external crossover and certainly not using the sub’s crossover.
What I did was to make the high-pass filter in passive way at the amplifier ( pair of monobloks. ) input with a first order filter ( 6db. ) using a capacitor and a resistor of the best quality you can find out and that’s it.

Adding nothing to the signal avoiding any signal degradation but this alternative needs of a good technician to make the job inside the amplifier. I can do that because I have the electronic input board diagram of the amplifiers. Not all amplifiers permit to do it.

Btw, FM Acoustics is an excellent phono, preamp and amplifier Swiss manufactured with a quality levels second to none. Wise dealer......

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @lalitk  : At which frequency are you crossing the Tannoys?, this is: from which frequency ( 70-80-100.etc ). and up are frequencies handled by the Tannoys??

Thank's.

R.
Dear @uwiikz :  "  at 80hz high pass crossing, it means that I need to have an EQ/Cross.. ""

Normally today best subwoofers already comes with the high-pass that split the signal that goes to the main speakers and the signal for the subs it self, check very well that the subs you can choose has that high-pass filter to avoid any additional external item.
Normally too the subs comes with a DSP control to optimize the subs integration with the speakers and the room at your seat position.

R.



Dear @uwiikz : Good that like it at your place even with out the K300.

"   Kerr Acoustic K100 to arrive. "

You said in other thread that you want it a 3-way speaker as the K100, good.

Now the K100 is a passive speakerand has a litle " problem " because its crossover 370hz and that means that that woofer is handling at the same time bass frequencies as could be 20hz ( example only. ) where the woofer has excursions/osciations that does not stop immediatly and at the same time is reproducing vital frequencies from 100hz to 400hz where those woofer 20hz-40hz excursions affects directly the quality level performance of the upper frequencies handled by that same woofer.
So exist a high IMD and obviously a high THD in those vital frequencies, vital for quality levels to achieve top quality levels.
In the other side the speakers will be connected to an amplifier that too is handling all the frequency range.

Look at this agoner room/system:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615

which are the mains differences with yours? you can think everything, well yes but the main differences are: a very high audio/MUSIC knowledge levels of its owner and that those speakers are active ones. Let me explain on it and what I said it before:


in a home audio room/system the MUSIC belongs at the bass range frequencies as better the this frequency range as better the whole room/system quality levels no matters what.

Each one of the speakers in that link comes with a self powered subwoofer where happens many good things:

first the woofers where designed to handle exactly the very demanding frequencies below 100hz, this is that the woofers/drivers are dedicated ones for those specific frequencies that gives you a lot lower THD and alond IMD.

The amps inside those woofers are too designed/dedicated to work in precise way for those bass frequencies and for those woofers it self. Again lower THD/IMD.

No one " universal " amp can handle in more precise way the subs woofers as its dedicated amp that was  builded in specific to that kind of task. This means that no matters which amp or amps will be handled the K100 just can't do it as well and with that quality levels as the subs does and obviously that the K100 woofers can't do it against the subs ones.

If you don't mind my advise is to buy a pair of K300 along two self powered subs with high-pass crossing at around 80hz to the K300.
In this way that crucial bass range will shines enough and permits to the other frequency ranges performs better than ever trhough the K300 main/satellite speakers.

Even not only will outperforms easily to the K100 but any other price no object passive speakers.

Using subs in a MUSIC room/system is not for augmernt the bass response but to lower DISTORTIONS down there.

Looking to your room is evident for me that either with the K100 or the K300+subs that room needs a room treatment including floor and certainly a TT better position and if you can that screen/TV must goes out.
Last and not the least important issue is that after the first overall system set up you need a room measurements frequency response. Today almost all subs comes with this facility.

That's what I will do it if I was you that I'm not.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Terry : I said " old records " because you refered to that " grunge " that does not " comes " in the new ones and that’s all.

As for used or new cartridges these are two options as other audio options: tube or SS, BD or DD, LT or pivoted.
You go for new only good noproblem about but I think that trying to desqualify or dimish the other alternative is only a " limitation " and this is your audio way of life and that’s why I understand your attitude.

Never mind, it’s not something to " live or die " for.

R.

PS: That Windfeld could be a challenge for your Kotsu too and only 1.5K. I'm not looking for a cartridge for me if not I bougth it with out doubt. Yes, this is me.
terry/lalitk : The OP wants a " training " cartridge, second hand is a good option for a " trainer ".

In the other side, I bougth top LOMC cartridges second hand through Agon with excellent results.
You have to make a little research about the Agon seller through his Agon feedback, you are not buying in blind condition and if you buy using Paypal and what you receive is not what the seller stated you can recovery your money.

In over 20´that I bougth here I never had the necessity to confront the seller, always been satisfied with.

Agon is a guarantee for that kind of buyers and a very good opportunity to own and listen a top cartridge as the Windfeld for only 1.5K ! !

I know that both of you can buy it new at 5K ( the new Ti. ) but in the link I posted the seller said the cartridge has 50hours of play, is almost not even " settle down ".

Why distress audiophiles about? please let us how many second hand cartridges, both of you, bougth in Agon and how many of them were a true " scam"? please show your first hand specific experiences about?

About the ultrasonic cleaner terry said " for old records " and if both of you read the Agon thread about that that was said the OP there too. The OP here will buy new records and what I don't understand very well is of you lalitk that posted the Project cleaner and suddenly change your advise in your last post  ? ?

R.






Terry : The OP is a " young " gentleman ( 40 . ) that's in the learning proccess we all pass through and that almost never really end.

He posted here:

""  ZERO trace of SS sound, I could’ve sworn it was tube midrange sound. I never thought I would ever ever consider SS in my system but the low-ish end system armed with Kuzma made me a convert in a few minutes. ....... and I never ever ever favor SS sound even on megabucks system until now, Kuzma really made me hear the best quality of an SS system.   ""

He is not " married " yet to a kind of audio item and this " single behavior "  goes in his favor.

You are married with: Koetsu, planars, LT tonearms and the like and those kind of " marries " always  are a limitation, makes the game-over. At least for me.

I'm not married with any audio kind of item, only with MUSIC and my MUSIC priorities. I like to " play " in this audio game as long as I can.

The OP needs " land " to walk and then to run on it with out limitations.

Btw, @ebm  , the OP already bougth his analog rig.

R.
Dear @terry9 : From the very first time that you started in analog till today how many cartridges do you owned? only 2?

The OP is starting with his first cartridge ever so yes in the near future he will be looking for new alternatives.

Koetsu is the best for you but not for every one and something that analog gives us is the opportunity to change the " color " and quality levels of what we are listening: this is the real advantage of any transducer as cartridges and speakers.

Cartridge manufacturers, including Koetsu, will follow in the cartridge research for better designs to give us that diferent or better color/quality level performance.

Please tell me 2-3 cartridge manufacturers that offer only one cartridge model for 5-10 years with no new improved cartridge designs.

In the other side not all cartridges performs the same mounted in the same tonearm, always exist differences and these differences belongs to the " analog game ". Ok, you finished your " game " no problem with but the OP is just starting with ! ! ! and the analog world is truly wide and he has the rigth to discover it by him self ( as this time. ). Through the time his research and learning issues are mandatory.

Terry, not all audiophiles share the same MUSIC/audio priorities and certainly do not own the same room/system. The OP needs to know the " fun " and learning behind the analog land exploration because all that is main part of the analog game, give him the chance to do it. Just an opinion.

Everything in the life is in continuous movement/changing and audio is no exception.

R.
Dear @uwiikz : You are the fastest " gun-figther " I ever seen in my audio life.

Fortunatelly your chice for analog rig is a good one and I think that before pull the triger so fast due to your " emotions " took a little time to learn because believe it or not speaking of the analog alternative you have a lot to learn. I have over 38+ years about and I can tell you that I’m still learning. We all need learn to walk before we really can run in any audio subject.

Good that the dealer will makes the set up at your place and here the first target is to define where the TT will be " seated " and I mean not only in which position in the room/system but above which damped perfect leveled platform, these issues are extremely important for a top overall quality performance.

Your dealer must teachs you not only all the whole set up proccess but the fine tunning tips/high ligths to that set up, maybe you will need/take more than one " lesson " about to through the time you can be totally " independent " with no help by your dealer or Kuzma.

Other issue along the set up is that your dealer must tells you in specific which kind of maintenance needs the TT and air line tonearm/compresor if any.

Fortunatelly too you meet in your thread to two same Kuzma TT/tonearm owners ( @whart and @ferrari275 ) dedicated music lovers/audiophiles that by first hand experiences are two really authorized " voices " where you can look for help or some advises/tips on your analog rig. You are lucky.

You need too to learn what kind of maintenance needs the cartridge it self and first than all is to mantain the stylus tip in clean condition, there are several " tools " to do it and you need to learn about.

Yes, your new LPs needs maintenance too that means, between other things, that been in clean conditions.

My advise here is that don’t pull the triger on what terry posted about and first go for the @lalitk advise where the same manufacturer has 2-3 models.

At the end terry said that after 1,500 hours a stylus tip was destroyed but 1,500 hours of playing means to listen LPs for 3 hours daily through 500 days and I can tell you ( almost for sure. ) and you can be sure that after 300 hours ( maybe less. ) listening to your your cartridge you will be looking for newer cartridges than can outperforms what you have rigth now.

In the other side the stylus tip it self cleans the LP grooves and ( between other things. ) that’s why you need to mantain clean that cartridge stylus tip. Here you have to really take care when doing it because as other gentleman posted here: the cartridge/cantilever/stylus tip is extremely fragile.

To learn the more in the analog alternative you will need to " move " by what you learned using your brain and not only your " emotions ". Obviously that you can move it as you want it because at the end is your money and your room/system, it’s only an opinion.

These are good and trusty sources to buy LPs and cartridge/LP maintenance products and other audio items:

https://www.musicdirect.com/vinyl/diana-krall-live-in-paris-numbered-limited-edition-180g-45rpm-viny...

https://elusivedisc.com/search?search_query=diana+krall#/filter:custom_format:Vinyl

https://store.acousticsounds.com/


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.








Dear @uwiikz : Do you remember wich cartridge was mounted in the Kuzma dealer's system and the Accuphace CD model?  in that dealer sessions which CD's did you listen it and if you can let us know if the comparisons were with the same LP's titles than the CDs?

Thank's in advance.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.