For the past 30 years or so I've considered myself a die-hard audiophile. I've gone through similar phases and opinions like most of you probably have. I've bought and sold many dozens (if not hundreds) of high end components and cables. Audio research, Linn, audionote, ensemble, synergistic, Zu Audio, PS Audio, Yamamoto, modwright, REL, Klipsch, hafler, CJ, coincident, classe, anthem, oppo, MIT, and many other brands I don't even remember. I've auditioned hundreds more... I'm also an electronic technician so I had my share of experience with DIY. I've gone from tubes and vinyl to digital and SS, and back around. I've owned mini monitors and huge 6' Giants and everything in between. I've heard the most minute differences in sound quality between cables and footers. I've spent way too many dollars on fuses, tweaks and furniture. I read reviews, and swore by specific brands. I've put together systems which I was sure we're the best ever and defended my choices with a passion.
No more.
I'm sitting here right now in my (ex) music room, listening to a system that costs less than $350 total, and enjoying the music as I rarely did with my recent $30K one. Does it sound as good and realistic as the $30K one? No it doesn't. But it sounds damn good. It's musical, engaging, full bodied with a well established sound stage, good detail and tonality, well paced, and I'm having a blast!!! I just don't care no more for the minute differences in sound quality. There is no end to it.
I let go, and oh man it feels good to enjoy music without constantly analyzing and subconsciously looking for imperfection or thinking how much better it will sound with tweak X or cable Y or upgrade Z... This tiny $350 system delivers 80% of the sound quality of the $30K one, and honestly probably better than many $5K ones out there. I mean it... It doesn't make any sense no more!
I have no regrets ... I've had a lot of fun and I met amazing people that I wouldn't have had I not been an audiophile. I've experienced great uplifting monents and great disappointments. I've laughed and cried, was blown away and frustrated... It was a great ride.
I am leaving this hobby behind and not looking back... Damn it feels good. I'll keep enjoying great music and HiFi sound, and will appreciate high quality equipment, but I won't be obsessed with it no more. I still have a very nice system in my living room which is probably worth around $2K and will be more than I'll ever need going forward. This amazing little $350 system is going to my office where I spend most of my week days and I'm excited about it...
I have woken up from the audiophile dream, and what has been seen can't be unseen.
Goodbye and thanks for the fish :-)
PS: Since I know you are very curious, the $350 system consists of a Raspberry Pi as a streamer ($25) with an upgraded DAC ($60), an upgraded power supply ($50), a 20 watt Chinese digital power amplifier ($70), mini monitor speakers I bought as a kit ($100), DIY stands from leftover lumber ($20), and around $20 in cables... I intentionally omit brand names, this post is not about recommending any specific item. It's about what amazing value you can get for ridiculously cheap these days in general.
I promise each and every one of you that if you were sitting in my seat right now, and I would have told you that you are listening to a $5K system, you would not have doubted it for a second. You are probably thinking that I'm crazy, but I am not. I've already tried this trick on a few very experienced audiophile friends this past week. :-)
my parents ruined me young..one of my first memories at age 4 in 1965 was a big truck arriving from Music Unlimited in Cleveland - the unboxing of Dual, McIntosh and Bozak components. Being warned on threat of death to never touch....My parents had no carpet and as I recall a ratty old antique couch we were NEVER allowed to sit on....oh but money for the trumpet, accordian, piano, voice lessons, and the Hi-Fi......
as I write this I have Fleetwood Mac cranked up, we used to listen at insane levels when the parents not home..tubes in the Mc240 glowing blue w plasma.. I still have that amp...
and yes falcon so many of the best memories are on the cheap as it were...I have been blessed...
Steve Guttenberg "compares" a $250K power amp, to a $33 one. Interesting 8 minute watch, and he re-iterates some of the points we discussed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJqXcBHixQc
My first "audiophile awakening" was around age 16. My parents had an old "all-in-one" Phillips stereo with a receiver, TT, and flimsy speakers that came with the set. I don’t think it even had a Cassette deck, maybe an 8-track, but I don’t really remember. I was extremely happy with it, until one day one of my classmates invited me over to his house to listen to some albums. They had a the top-of-the-line luxman component setup, with a dbx dynamic range expander, and a pair of huge 15" Altec Lansings with horn tweeters, I never even knew what model they were. They were similar to the ones with the huge vertical "slider style" switches they now try to "retro" with their newer models. I will never forget the first time I saw the PD-444 (i found out the model much later, but there was no mistaking that TT) with dual arms, and the first time he played the same album that I listened to the day before on my crappy Phillips system. It was Zenyatta Mondatta by The Police. On the first few bass notes of "Don’t stand so close to me" my jaw dropped to the floor, and I knew I will never listen the same way to that crappy Phillips system. Amazing that 35 years later, I still have the image of their system fresh in my memory.
As long as we're strolling down memory lane, my early teen years were the late fifties when transistors mobilized your music and one could take his tiny[relatively speaking] transistor radio with and listen to Elvis, Dion,The Platters, Bill Haley I could go on, but you get the idea.
@n80When I was young my parents had an old RCA Victor, Victrola. The bottom was filled with 78's. Every once in a while we would crank it up (literally) and put on one of the records. There was classical for sure and I could swear some Count Basie as well. It would probably be worth a small fortune today.
I still remember my mother letting us put on her Simon & Garfunkle, Herb Alpert and Kingston Trio records on the record changer console unit. Looked like a piece of furniture.
My own albums came later. And for me they were expensive. So in addition to the music on them the cost also made them special. And pretty infrequent too.
Talking of memories, it's a sobering thought that I will probably never again attain the sheer listening pleasure that I got back in the late 1970s. The sheer excitement of playing those LPs the first dozen or so times! The Beatles Blue album (wow!), Pepper, Revolver, the White Album, Abbey Road, Blonde on Blonde, Highway 61 Revisited, the Doors, the Velvet Underground and Nico, Forever Changes, Astral Weeks, the Hangman's Beautiful Daughter, Electric Ladyland, Closer, Unknown Pleasures, Get Happy!! etc.
Between 1978 and 1980, the Sex Pistols were as important as food to me. It's funny how the breakup of that band/death of Sid /followed by Ian Curtis' suicide/ Lennon's murder, all gradually combined over the next decade and a half to dim that initial red hot intensity of passion. Looking back I can now appreciate why some had said that the death of Buddy Holly was the day the music died. For them it had.
Back then the Sunday chart show on Radio 1 (and the Top of the Pops BBC TV show) were both a staple part of our weekly routine. The current music scene was an important and relevant part in keeping our lives together then. Some of us needed to go back further into it's wonderful history. First towards childhood memories and then beyond even those, all the long and winding road back to Louis Armstrong.
To now think that most of my 'formative' listening was done through a music centre (record player / cassette /radio combo) feeding bookshelf speakers.
Strangely enough as I was to discover later, no amount of upgrading would ever get that initial magic back again. Perhaps there is no way back, perhaps you can only go back in dreams. Perhaps in real life you can only go forwards.
@falconquest triggered a memory about listening to the radio at night when he was a kid. I did the same thing. First through fifth grade. Late 60's and early 70's. Jacksonville, Florida, always tuned to WAPE, the Big Ape. The Who, Pink Floyd, Joe Walsh, Zep, Stones, Skynrd etc etc etc when all that good stuff was coming out. A constant stream of the some of the best rock ever. I listened to it until I fell asleep every night and it played while I was asleep until my dad came in and turned it off when he went to bed. I remember the concert announcements of all these folks too wishing I was old enough to go. I absolutely loved listening to that little FM clock radio. I never had any notion of hi-fi then but I probably enjoyed music as much then on that one speaker radio as I do now. Maybe more.
@falconquest Wow... definitely interesting! I’m happy to say I’ve been very fortunate in that regard as well. In my ~50 years, I visited over 30 countries and 4 continents. I lived for over 30 years in Israel where I was born, 3 years in the Netherlands, and for 2 years I took a break from life and travelled, driving across India and Nepal on a motorcycle - an indian Royal Enfield Bullet. I visited Thailand quite a few times, islands, mountains, everywhere. Travelled for many months in Africa driving an old Mitsubishi Jeep. Africa is my favorite continent to visit, Uganda in particular, and I’m going there in March again! If you haven’t put Africa on your to do list, you are missing out. It’s different than anything else you’ve ever seen or imagined. For the last 7 years I’ve been living here in northern California. I took a few long vacation trips, about 2 months each, riding my motorcycle across the USA. I probably visited 40 states by now and drove over 30K miles just for fun. Too many experiences to list here :-) Have a wonderful weekend and good luck with your audio quest! (pun not intended) Ami
I guess I have been rather fortunate in my life. I have hiked the Inca trail through the Sungate to Machu Picchu, climbed Huayna Picchu, stared in amazement at the stones of Sacsayhuaman, spent a wind blown night in Monteverde, stared into the abyss of Vesuvius, stood in the amphitheatre in Pompeii where Pink Floyd recorded Echoes, toured the Coliseum and the Vatican (omg, the wealth in St.Peters!) flew over the Nazca lines, paddled a sea kayak into the sea caves on Devils Island, climbed many a Great Lakes old abandoned light house, and rode a horse into Lake Michigan while he swam. All of this was done on the cheap. I love cars and once built a high performance small block Chevy motor but decided to stay away from high performance cars. Some like expensive watches, cars, jewelry, etc. but from the time when I was young and used to lay in bed at night with my portable FM radio listening to the rock station (before it was classic) I told myself someday, I am going to listen to this music on a high end stereo. So while I have done all those things, the one thing I was always driven to is high end audio. My system is very nice but by no means ultra high end. It suits me fine and now that I am getting older I decided before I die I will accomplish this goal. I tweak here and there but am very fortunate to be able to have a "high end" system and achieved what I set out to do when I was 9 years old listening to that portable FM radio under my pillow at night. Interesting life, isn’t it?
but as you delve into DIY, mod , rebuild and repair there are lots of ways to destroy gear..high voltages, ground loops, DC into speakers, electrostats panel arc without dust shields, etc...
some things like Apogee parts are more or less unobtainable.....
@n80 wonderful, they are not making new land in any significant volume soon anyway, and IF that comes to pass well then we all have serious problems...
scarcity is an important concept to economists, your slice of heaven is scarce and has few substitutes....just other ways to allocate resources. We all make choices, sounds like yours are hyper aligned with your passions.
a long time ago a Winchester sage of some note said to me
@ami if English is not your native language then you are still far ahead of many many (if not most) Americans in regard to your writing skills. You are light years ahead of 99.99% of us, including me, in regard to mastering more than one language.
@tomic601"so yes, some of my high end toys are not messed with and others modified and thrashed to within inches of doom ( mine and the toy )"
I don’t have any high end toys at all, but my 350Z is now pure track car. I’ve been off roading more times than I can count. Crashed it once in the rain at VIR(no injuries...to me anyway). Rebuilt it. Put a roll bar in. Now it is worth almost nothing....and that is liberating on track.
One of the nice things about our audio toys is in general there isn’t much way to trash them.......I’ll never know if my Proceed will damage my Aerials.
Edit: I actually do have one high end toy and its the reason I don't have any other high end toys. 250 acres of woodland in prime hunting country with a cabin and 10 acre lake. Been paying on it for 17 years.
@desktop guy. set free the model 4, somebody out there needs them or the drivers, which are now unobtainable...just my two cents. good on you for seeking headphone nirvana, I surely enjoy the transparency of my STAX which i use in live recording
Ami, ignore spelling, grammar advice but do check out the band London Grammar, it is the internet after all....
i benefited greatly in life having rather extensive Kaizen schooling, including beatings, so my mindset is perfection should be sought but is rarelt obtainable...even a $200 M jet is designed to a price point and might not be perfect...YMMV
so yes, some of my high end toys are not messed with and others modified and thrashed to within inches of doom ( mine and the toy ) interesting why I view some differently.....will think on that...
i will most likely attend burningamp2019 in your neighborhood, buy you a cold one then ! hear your $300 marvel !!!!
Interesting post: an "audiophile conversion/epiphany" narrative. I can relate (sort of).
Nearly 30 years ago I had my dream audiophile system set up in my 1st house: big Vandersteen 4s, tube amps, tube preamp, top notch tuner, TT, a couple modded early digital front ends. It sounded like heaven.
Moved to the 2nd house, much larger but (cue dark irony) with no really suitable place for that big system. So the system went into storage in my home office, where it remains to this day.
Late in the '90s I did all that was really left to me & started a desktop audio system. I've continually refined & expanded that. It's now near-audiophile. But it has the very considerable advantages of being headphone-capable: I own 6 solid state headphone amplifiers, 3 of which can also be used (very effectively) as a system preamp; + an OTL tube amp for headphones. And 10 headphones. 2nd advantage is a NOS DAC that has really changed how I regard digital.
Maybe I'm must "making do," but I'm also keep the audiophile flame alive. Some of these headphones are deeply involving and accomplished sonically.
@n80 + @tomic601 I thought some more on your comparison of the cheap vs expensive thrill, and maybe there is another aspect here at play. Driving a 1990 Miata might even be more fun that driving a 2018 Agera... With the latter, any squeek or out-of-place noise, a late shift or delayed power transfer will immediately grab your attention and think "hmmm ... what is wrong?" For a car with that price tag, you will be expecting nothing but perfection, and anything that may seem less than perfect, will be disappointing. With the former, you don't expect perfection. Some quirks, noises, and inconsistencies are part of the deal, and for the price tag, you don't really care. That leaves you with just pure fun, even though the performance level is not the same. I also suspect that you will be willing to test the limits of the Miata more than you will the Agera, for fear of damaging it. Does that make sense?
Same with a $30K system vs. a $0.3K one... I enjoy and appreciate it for what it is, and the amazing value it provides. Absolute performance is less of a factor.
@roxy54 + @n80 what he said ;-) First, thank you for the language feedback. No cynicism, I honestly mean it... English is not my first language, and I only improve with such feedback. Looking back on the text, I agree that the 2nd ’no more’ sounds off, and "any more" is more appropriate. The first one is not a complete sentence, so I think it works fine. A quick Google search showed some interesting rules, and some differences between US and British english. See for yourself: https://www.google.com/search?q=no+more+vs.+anymore&oq=no+more+vs.+anymore
@roxy54 I can't speak for Ami but in the original post "No more" was used as a stand alone sentence, which I think is appropriate, as in "I used to do all this stuff. No more." As in "not any more" or to put a literary spin on it "nevermore".
Otherwise saying "I don't do that no more" instead of "I don't do that anymore" is improper English but a is common colloquialism. So it could be a regional thing or maybe English isn't a first language for Ami. You never know.
ami, Congrats on your enlightenment. I guess I'm midway between the average crazy audiophile and you at this point, which feels like a good balance to me. I do have a question though... Your original post is well written except for the use of "no more" twice instead of any more. Why?
@tomic601 I use the Raspberry Pi only as a streamer. I know Paul Winter, he is amazing! Thanks for the heads-up, will definitely listen! Have a musical weekend ;-)
IF. your Rasberry Pi can stream, KPBS here in San Diego has the Paul Winter Consort Solstice music event tonight at 10-Midnight. Music to feed the primal soul...
@tomic601 I go to the track with one of my best friends (’67 Mustang, 645hp at rear, he does all the work on it) and his wife. His wife is one of my wife's best friends and they hang out all weekend in the tent and bring good food and drink.
I think my wife would be okay with modest racing expenses. Even I would draw the line at the expense required to be a front runner in any late model class. But to me its more about the inspections, log books, impounds and such. Not to mention we’ve witnessed some very contentious red faced confrontations on a number of occasions and that’s not something my buddy or I need on a weekend at the track.
Anyway, there is a part of me that really wants to learn racecraft. But, I’m too old and have too much else to do.
And to steer back on topic, I’m fortunate that my audio system was free. Even though my wife doesn’t blink at $500 brake pads and $1000 tires every 5-6 events she simply does not get this audio stuff.
Interesting topic. I think everyone finds their own level in this hobby whether you are constrained by finances, other priorities, or common sense (your wife). Enjoyment can be had on both ends of the economic spectrum.
I listened to a fellow Audiogoner’s system last year. His current system cost is deep into six figures. I would say it was the most amazing system I’ve heard. Having said that, it was not for me. I like mine well enough at a fraction of the price.
I’m still striving to improve the sound of my system but my focus is on acoustics - not gear. BTW, there are lots of (common sense) constraints in this aspect of audio as well ;-).
@ishkabibil - As I said, this is not about a specific brand. You can get similar mini digital amplifiers online. There are plenty of reviews on these, just search http://bfy.tw/LSpM
@rvpiano - your previous post was not removed, it is on the first page and this thread is now into it's second page. See the blue links below with page numbers to browse.
For some reasons my earlier post was removed! I’ll try again.
I used to love music, period. Since I’ve gotten into this addiction, craziness, obsession etc, I now listen for sound most of the time, and if the music gets through its a bonus.
@n80 I need you on a conference call with spouse about my wildly optimistic racing costs!!! Ha all good ( fishing is almost worse ) sounds like you have enough hobbies/interests and found your sweet spots
”comparison is the root of all unhappiness “....
we are all so competive...some of us sit by the mixing board for a reason...
Going by the logic of the OP going even further than he did might be even more rewarding, no? Which is actually what I did by eliminating cables, power cords, interconnects, fuses, speakers and speaker cables altogether. This would be the opposite of the “upgrade path” currently in vogue. Sometimes to create you must destroy. No more pencils, no more books, no more teacher’s dirty looks.
Sounds like you've reached enlightenment [audio wise]. It's called surrender [to the music].My favorite system is an Emotiva Bas-x A-100 which was called by someone on this forum a lower, mid-fi amp{this is the stuff that turns me off on these forums}. A pair of Sennheiser HD600's and a Sony SACD changer I picked up at Goodwill for $22 and change with my Sr. discount. I'll bet one would be hard-pressed to beat it spending a lot more on expensive cables and power cords.
@tomic601 I do not have a Miata. I have a 350z, which is less capable than a Miata but faster in the straights of course. I do not race. But all I would need to go there is a cage (rather than the rollbar in it now) and a race suit. I have everything else-HANS, harness, gloves etc.
The cost of racing a 350z would be in tires and brakes. I could race with a Spec e-30, American Iron or a Thunder Roadster for even less.
I think about racing but have decided not to pursue it. More because of all the stuff that goes with it than the cost.
When you run DE-4 with a lot of friends you're about as close to racing as you can get. Plenty of unsanctioned (and unspoken of) competition, balls-to-the-wall wheel-to-wheel, passing in corners, etc......but without all the other stuff. Maybe an occasional reprimand from the track staff.
I'd love to try racing. Even just to say I've done it. Just having too much fun doing what I'm doing and weekends are free since I instruct.
The point of all the car talk is that you can get track level thrills on the cheap just like you can do audio for less. Maybe 80% as the OP says.
Firstnot, Ami, I think you could have 2 levels of "cheap system" competition - one with off-the-shelf components that us mortals could put together, and another with DIY systems. I'll admit the DIY competition would be far more interesting...
I have argued that there are basically 3 types of listeners, those who are happy with virtually anything that puts out sound, then what I call the Vandersteen crowd, they want polite music, then there are detail fanatics. The bottom line is that you are listening for your pleasure, so it doesn't matter which camp you are in as long as you are content, you are content!
@ ami: I went and sat down & listened to a system that was a little below 20k for about 15 minutes & I was amazed. For 15 minutes I was in a whole different sphere of sound, as if the universe had been altered irreparably, forever changing the way the things I heard in music. Then I went home to my far inferior system (probably by 18.5k) and I sat down & listened. That day was my "awakening". My system actually, while not fulfilling that sound by any margin, sound quality wise was in the ballpark. So, why do I need to go and spend all that money, remortgage my life & owe money when I owe nobody money now? Instead, I will visit the DIY & AG sites & begin to obtain the knowledge to improve electronically what I already have. That's my 2 cents,
P.S. Most of my system consists of thrift store/flea market finds with some help with second hand shops. My interconnects are more expensive than the units they connect, that's where I succeeded.
Just for fun bought a Zero-Zone tube pre-amp ($40), swaped out the tubes and bought a regulated power supply. Paired w/a Parasound Zamp. Fantastic!. The magic is there but you could most certainly hear it's limitations. Very pleasurable to listen to! I've gotten pretty good at matching inexpensive gear and matching systems sound great for very little $. But, I still have a reference system which I'll never give up.
Hello ami it is great to see you too look for the weakest link in the chain in build performance and design. It’s totally stunning sometimes. I had Harbeth literally hang up on me for I questioned why he would use inexpensive Taiwan cranberry Color small poly caps when in the U.K you have far better caps in Clarity only hours away ? Just to save money,Solen is used more 5hen Any Capacitor in Speakers rated a 6 out of a possible 16 ? Pride. If my name is on it I try to put All quality components in it . I sometimes am compulsive even compelled to improve something that is not really correct. Current quest built Highend speaker cables Litz,- OCC Copper,light Teflon dielectric fantastic wire- VH Audio, from their Today same Wire smaller awg, the Loudspeakers Xover and all driver wires, then electronics all from the same cloth the synergy will be fantastic in previous email all metals Another MFG fault using Goldplated Brass, over 80% of MFG do this ,Brass sucks 4x less conductive then Copper or Silver and realismmodt certainly suffers that is why I changed to 100% Gold Copper ,nochina connectors invited. And UPOCC ultra pure —Ohno cslled -0 Crystal Copperspeaks for itself many high quality companies use it ,then again many don’t because of $$cost. If you truly love your equipment and plan on keeping it then do everything you can parts wise as well as wiring to make it maybe even 20% better or more which is Huge. Sometimes you are much better off buying a very high quality used equipment and making a plan to have it modded. myself mainly just do Speakers .i have a few great friends that are experts in Vacuum Tube electronics.
I used to love only music. Since I’ve gotten more and more into this obsession, craziness, addiction... call it what you will, I have to admit I no longer enjoy it the way I used to. Except on rare occasions, I can’t listen to music without obsessing over the sound.
@firstnot: If that is all DIY, I’m in... Maybe http://www.burningamp.org/ is a good event for your idea. Just choosing and putting together off-the-shelf components doesn’t sound too exciting, and doesn’t show much craftsmanship IMHO. All DIY on the other hand... I might be tempted to build something with TI’s new class D chip they are so proud of: https://www.mouser.com/new/Texas-Instruments/ti-tas3251-amps/
Now this post of Amis is hitting some nerves! Good thing too. Here is what I propose: Have a contest annually with a $10,000 1st prize for the person with the best sounding system under $500 total. Judges blindfolded. Participants must provide evidence that all components are available to the public at the prices claimed. The results might help bring more people to appreciate good sound.
There is is great potential to walk the fringe of diminishing returns with a Miata, bone stock or not. One car in my collection is a ‘97 base model with the only tweak being +0 summer tires. It’s a perfect example of the concept Mazda embraced when they took the roadster market by storm in late ‘89. As with hifi gear, you can achieve fantastic results without bankrupting yourself if you focus on the product(s) that intrinsically combine high value and great performance. And yes, high value means you accept very willingly to forgo luxuries in the name of performance. The quest is fun, I assure.
Ami "Some of the high voltage components were held together by hot glue and double-sided tape,.."
As far as poor construction is concerned, I dislike amps that use sticky cable tie blocks to hold parts. Very lazy and not designed to last. Builders take note.
Walking the fringe of the line of diminishing returns has been quite rewarding for me. I like to think the sound quality of my main system is approaching 90%+ that of “perfect”, with an investment of roughly $1500 on vintage gear that I’ve rehabilitated and augmented with a few things such as a new mid range MM phono cartridge. This hobby has never been so fun!
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