Anyone out there have any Tekton speakers with either ribbon or AMT tweeter?? Uruz owners perhaps?
I have finally decided to order a pair of Encore loudspeakers. Upgrading from the Double Impacts.
I've been back and forth as to which speaker to order. Encore vs. Moab. vs Ulfberht......Well, I had a chance to talk to Eric at Tekton the other day. I asked about Beryllium tweeter on the Encore and he certainly can make that happen. At that time, he brought up the idea of using a ribbon tweeter. I have seen zero examples of his larger speakers with that tweeter installed. He seemed very confident in the ability to integrate it into the design. I enjoyed the enthusiasm, so much so that it prompted me to go for it. Experimental blood in my veins I guess.
That being said, I am curious if there are other individuals out there with Tekton speakers with ribbon tweeters? and what their take might be. Impressions? Downsides? Yes, I realize the standard design is fantastic. But I'm a tinkerer at heart. Willing to try things unseen, unheard assuming the risk isnt too much.
Eric said he could use two different brand drivers. Fountek, and Mundorf. Both very linear responses. Both something he felt very east to integrate into the current design. Mundorf being the bees knees, but at an additional cost.
So, bottom line, I gave him the green light to go to crazy and use the Mundorf driver and see what kinda unique loudspeaker he could create.
Also, side note.....I guess a true ribbon tweeter is not exactly AMT?? Casually interchangeable terms? Not exactly sure the specifics as to why thy aren't the same.
But I'm so damm curious how he can integrate this into his current Encore design that I'm willing to try it out.
Boy, this forum can be decapitating but here goes.
Ribbons, planar magnetic and AMT drivers are not the same. We design and build all three types so we know a thing or two about them. I categorize them as light membrane drivers. Like everything else, there are many variations of each type. To say that all AMT drivers sound the same or that all ribbons sound the same is inaccurate. Not to mention all the different dimensions they are built to.
The frontal dimensions of a driver and its frequency range influence the dispersion pattern through that range. To substitute a small round driver in the middle of a circular array with a driver that has a very different dispersion pattern is problematic at best and probably the main reason the circular array is replaced with one AMT. A circular array of AMT drivers is unlikely to be unrealized. We have played with multi-directional AMT and planar drivers. Hard to model and measure.
Obviously, we feel that our OB AMT line array is a very elegant approach. Our customers tell us that our dipole (OB) woofer modules are "very fast" and integrate seamlessly with our very accurate AMT line arrays. They are DSP controlled in both the amplitude and time domains. In the near future we plan on releasing stand alone OB subwoofers. They will be a good match for many panel speaker. The upper limit is 200 Hz.
@asvjerry: For woofers that can "keep pace" with your Heil AMT’s, check out the OB/Dipole Sub offered by GR Research in collaboration with Rythmik Audio. 12" servo-feedback woofers (two or three) mounted in an H-frame (or M-frame if you prefer, in which case for two woofers only), with the Rythmik A370 plate amp into which is installed a dipole-cancellation compensation shelving circuit (which enables the sub to reproduce frequencies into the teens). That the sub shares the dipole radiation characteristics of the Heil driver makes it particularly appropriate for that application. Unlike "normal" subs, usable up to 300Hz. Details on the GR Research and Rythmik Audio websites, discussion about the sub on the AudioCircle GR Research Forum.
Ric Schultz (ricevs above) used that very sub system in the excellent loudspeakers he was offering when all the NEO Magnetic-Planar drivers (Neo3, Neo8, Neo10) were available. Known for their "lean" (none of the all-too common "plumpness" of most subs), clean ("stop-on-a-dime" characteristic), "fast" (return to rest when the signal stops, with no "overshoot") sound quality.
As ricevs said, use of Be may be more critical for very HF. But since Be has advantages of high rigidity with low mass, it probably would let the midrange sound more accurate as well as HF. Since midrange is the most critical for musical authenticity, if money is no object, then using Be for all 15 tweeters in the Ulf, Encore, Moab would be best. In the Electron SE, there are only 7 tweeters, so the Be upgrade is cheaper, although the lower freq range cutoff is higher and then below 400-600 Hz, the inferior 5" driver is used. I am just guessing 400-600 Hz as a cutoff for the single array used in the lower models.
@erik_squires You know Erik, I have given you support in these forums, sometimes when it was not due. Now, I clearly explain the differences in how a Ring Radiator differs in its exact construction and I have to hear this crap from you telling me that I ignore fundamental differences. It is YOU that IGNORES the Fundamental construction that these share. I'm tired of your insults Brother.
Every implementation of ribbons, AMTs. beryllium tweeters, electrostats....etc. into infinity will sound different. You cannot listen to one speaker in one setup and think you know anything about tweeter technology. Even one piece of wire or solder joint or one part in the xover....etc. etc. can completely change the sound. And of course, all ribbons, AMTs, etc sound different from each other.
Martin Logan uses their own implementation of a particular AMT.....this does not mean someone else's implementation of another different or same AMT will sound the same. This game is not simple.
I would listen to a pair of Martin Logan Motion 60's first to see if you like the sound of ribbon tweeters. I for one liked them when I first heard and fortunately I went back to listen to them for a hour and felt I would develop ear fatigue. Unless you either have significant hearing loss in the higher frequencies. They do so crips. However, are they too crisp.
Please, look at the pics of the Moab and above....they are all pure soft dome tweeters....not ring radiators......please look more closely. The cheaper speakers use various types....the Moab and above all use normal soft dome tweeters......Wavecore, etc.
Ring radiators are just a "type" of soft domes....No need to get ballistic about a "word". Who cares what someone calls something. An AMT looks like a ribbon so it is understandable that people roll all this together. Not a big deal......Enjoy your self....and every self that exists in every second of this continuous miracle.
And calling and AMT a ribbon or a ring radiator a dome is to ignore fundamental and important differences in their behavior which is why only you make these simplifications.
At this point I might as well call a farm tractor a truck, and bees cats. I mean, why bother typing in English if you are just going to randomly pick nouns?
I've made the argument here many times that an AMT is a version of a ribbon. (Folded, different radiation pattern etc) I make the same argument with a Ring radiator.... It is still a dome. In a traditional dome, the voice coil attaches directly to the dome and the dome is the main radiating element. In a ring radiator, the suspension itself is the main radiating element. In the end, you don't have a ring radiator without first having a dome.
whacky, Think about other large speakers you've seen. Sometimes a ribbon is used to extend the very highest frequencies (like a supertweeter). In this case, he might have planned to place it in the center of the speaker between the 2 seven tweeter arrays. Companies like Legacy and Dali have done similar things.
I've had the 'large' Heil AMTs' for quite some time now, keeping them 'fused' so exuberance doesn't create fails. The fact they're dipoles does require treating them as such...
Finding woofers that can keep pace with them is an issue. Smaller woofers (say with passive radiator) helps.....adding a sub for the 'low down' does the trick here....*S*
so I’ve just seen the photos of what the double impacts look like with the ribbon/AMT tweeter installed. I was not aware that the entire tweeter array was replaced with a single large vertical rectangular ribbon. I can’t imagine he planned on replacing the entire full 15 array of tweeters on the Encore when he proposed that as an option. But after seeing the photos of the DI, I honestly have no idea what his intentions were. I thought he was just talking about replacing central high frequency driver much like the Be upgrade. Will have to touch base with him about this.
@dancole - refreshing to actually hear from someone who has done exactly what I am consideirng. Very cool.
Those individuals who have preferred the soft dome tweeters have also acknowledged that others with well acclimated ears have preferred the Be tweeters after listening to both. To me, it seems like its going to boil down to a personal preference at that point.
The ribbon however seemed to be the greater unknown. Glad to see there are others out there who have had it done. Not sure how things are setup on the DIs. Did Eric swap out the center tweeter in the DI for the ribbon?
I'm definitely curious to A/B the DI and these upcoming Encores based on all this conversation.
Personally, I would always go for a faster tweeter. The soft domes are great for the midrange....there are so many of them.....but treble requires the fastest driver you can get (ever heard an Ionovac...OMG) Remember, there is only one tweeter....the rest of the tweeters are used as midranges. A guy on the other Moab thread changed his soft dome tweeter to Beryllium and said it was a substantial upgrade. DId Tejay actually A/B two Tektons...one with soft dome tweeter and one with beryllium? I would say you would get substantially more musical info using beryllium than a soft dome.
I special ordered a pair of Double Impacts with ribbon tweeters in place of the array of dome tweeters because I generally prefer ribbons or AMTs, and I was unable to hear the dome array before purchasing. I didn't spring for the Mumford ribbons, but something a bit less expensive; and Eric still said it amounted to an "upgrade." He was also excited at the opportunity the use of the ribbons gave him to lower the crossover point, which he thought might provide a smoother transition between the two midrange and high-end. I'm no expert on the technical stuff; I'm just reporting what Eric told me. Of course, I know he's a good salesman, but I was clearly going to buy the speakers one way or the other. So, he had no reason to prevaricate. And he certainly has a reputation for honesty.
I've had the speakers for several months now (at least five or six), and I love them. Obviously, I have no basis for comparing them to the regular DIs, but I'm more than fine with what I've got.
I demoed the Double Impacts with upgrades. Sent them back as I ended up with all Legacy system. I was searching for a more dynamic system than my Ascend Acoustics with the Raal Tweets. The Legacy’s filled that search. Sounds like Tekton is taking a stab at my likes ….
I've always been fascinated with the Heil AMT and Janszen electrostats, but my current Sonist Concerto 4's have fairly large Fountek ribbons (Neo X 3.0?) crossed over at 8000 Hz, inside wave guides, and it's the best treble I've ever had. No ear fatigue.
I look forward to your comparison of the DI to you new Encore, and excited for you. I am looking to upgrade my Movie Theater/Listening Room with either the DI or the MOAB. Millercarbon enlightened me, with his thread, to consider at least the MOAB.
I want to see Eric build a planar system. A small planar driver like neo 3s, 8s, or 10s (10" are not my favorite)
I could see if the drivers were available, with a reliable supply chain it would be doable. I know the problem for the most part is cost.
I just saw the drivers I been using, for 12 years or so, BG neo 3, 8. 10, double in price, DOUBLE. WHY? Stupidity, when people are that greedy, you got to call them the way you see them. GREEDY. The company changes hands and some corporate, mastermind does that. Doubles the price. Nothing doubles in price, and survives. That's called ringing out the consumer.
I've seen AMT from 40.00 USD to over 2000.00 a pair. I heard there are a few at over 5K a pair.
AMT ribbons/planars, are sure great sounding, you won't be sorry, but be aware most ribbon/planar/amt stuff can be brighter. How ever you want to handle that.. They are not soft domes..
Never say never, but from everything I have seen you're never gonna be hating it. Whatever you get, you're gonna be slapping yourself its so good. What he's done with that MTM array is taking things to another level. So can you do even better with better drivers? Sure. But the majority of the magic is there in the MTM array.
I had that same conversation a week or so back. Great talk. Hard to disagree with the logic in his argument. Combined with his experience, that makes for one healthy recommendation.
That being said, plenty of anecdotal experience from many individuals with the Be tweeter who seem very, very happy with their decision. That has plenty of merit in my book as well.
I didn't even know the ribbon/amt was an option going into the phone conversation. It was Eric who suggested it. Is he a passionate man about his craft? Absolutely. Is he trying to sell me a product? Sure. But I also don't think he would blindly offer up something that he didnt feel would be amazing in the end. And I trust his ability to create something great. Thats good enough for me.
Now admittedly, I am not an audiophile/speaker reviewer with years of experience. Nor am I someone who would be characterized as a pathologically discerning listener or critic. Just someone who enjoys the process, and loves trying new things. For better or worse.
If this doesn't work out, or I end up hating the design/sound/experience, I will gladly be the first to own up to it (said no audiophile ever), and I'll move onto something else.
Also.... the full Be tweeter array...woah. Even my desire to try something new has some limits with the pocketbook.
The most experienced person with these I know is teajay, and he talked me out of the Be tweeter. Not that it took much. One of the many beauties of the design is the organic continuity of using the same driver over so much of the range. Essentially everything from the midbass on up is done with the same driver. If a Be tweeter is used that will be a different sonic signature and so as teajay said better to be all cloth.
I would only consider the Be tweeter if using it across the whole MTM array. Eric swears doing that with an Ulf and you have a speaker as good as any in the world. But again that is using Be across the whole MTM array, not just the one tweeter. He may be right but its beyond my budget. But you can try it and let me know!
Hi whacky, I am really interested to know how he'll position it. Will it be in the middle of the 7 tweeter array, or in between the (2) 7 tweeter arrays?
@millercarbon yup. I have a feeling the situation you described with your Moabs has a high likelihood of happening with this custom build. Worst case, If things don’t seem to be working out when the time comes to actually build the speakers, I will gladly change directions and take either the stock Encore or the Be tweeter. I’m fairly certain I won’t be disappointed either way and im expecting added time and / or hassle with it. It’s that early adopter mindset. Gotta be comfortable knowing things may not go as planned. I’m cool with that. I did think to myself when he was mentioning the option that it’ll likely take more work to get it right with the internals just based on the fact that it’s not the standard design. Ie crossover design, etc. But who knows. It very well may be easier for him just the same. @squeek I did not ask too many specifics concerning the placement, size, positioning. However, there was also nothing said about how it would drastically chance his array positioning. I doubt he is going to go to great lengths to change the cabinet design. Not unless it’s a quick and easy modification. My assumption at the end of the call was it would likely be a direct swap or very close to it. The Fountek be mentioned appeared to be a circular shape roughly the same size as what’s currently used. I have not scrutinized it in detail, not have I looked to see what Mundorff offers that could directly swap in. So I’m not sure which tweeter he was specifically referencing.
I will always go for every possible upgrades when it comes to internals as well. Wiring. Capacitors. Etc. those represent upgrades I would never want to do myself, so I’d rather have those in place from the get-go.
He's been slammed with orders pretty much nonstop for at least a year now. Summer usually is slower but not this year.
My Moab story started similar to yours only with the better Ulfberht tweeters. All was fine until build day and the reality hits that any one different thing like a tweeter requires a complete redesign of the crossover network.
In hindsight I was a fool to believe anyone even as fertile a genius as he is can just slap some new tweeters in and have it be better like I imagine in my naive little mind. That one little change means a significant re-engineering of crossover network, not to mention baffle and bracing. Inside mine at that same location is a brace that fits right around the tweeter. Different tweeter, different brace. On and on the ripples flow out from this one seemingly simple change.
I would get the standard parts upgrades. Caps, wires, binding posts. Leave the rest alone. When you hear them you will know why. Freaking awesome.
Goldenear Aon3 are one model using folded ribbon tweeter I am familiar with. The sound was very “polite”. Nothing there likely offensive to most. Flip side is my understanding is most folded ribbon tweets are very directional. I know some makers won’t use them for that reason but obviously others do. Use in the Tekton array is a unique case. Surely Eric knows what to expect there I would think or he wouldn’t suggest it. If it works you would think he might offer it as an option or even design some models to use them by default though cost would likely have to go up. I had Heil AMT speakers many moons ago. The problem back then is they were easily fried but I expect modern technology would alleviate that by now.
His motivation for proposing them was in response to me asking about the Be tweeter option.
I told him I was interested in that option because I like the idea of having that little extra touch of air and clarity in the top end, as long as it’s not fatiguing or brash. He then said they could even do a ribbon if I wanted it. We talked about the sonic characteristics of them. How they are fast and clear. I think he also mentioned that the ribbons mass works with his array design. Definitely seemed very excited and enthusiastic about it and assured me he wouldn’t let anything leave his shop that wouldn’t blow my mind. I was sold.
@millercarbon definitely gonna be at least a 2 month wait for sure. I’m guessing longer. He said they got slammed with orders recently.
He never mentioned those when I talked to him on my ulfers, definitely intresting. Amts are similar to ribbons, but are folded accordion style and squeeze the air to produce sound. Also has much greater surface area, allowing smaller movements . Each type has its own advantages of course.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Motion_Transformer
I’ve used AMTs (Air Motion Transformer), Planars, and Ribbons. They are the fastest, they are the best.. very simple.. I’m more of a planar/ribbon guy because a GOOD AMT can make or break the bank. Either and or. One of my favorite combos is a soft dome for HF and planar/ribbon for UHF.
What I have been doing for the last 20-25 years planars/ribbons down to 300 hz from there down, round drivers.. I real sonic masterpiece is the Strathearn ribbon... Just wonderful..
I don’t plan on selling my double impacts until the new encores are settled. I absolutely plan on doing side by side comparisons when the time comes. Will gladly post my impressions.
my gear is in flux right now. But when the new speaker show up; I’ll list everything I’ve tried. Currently I’m rocking a Directstream DAC via is2 connection to a PrimaLuna dialogue HP with EL34s. However currently auditioning the PS audio M700 Amps as we speak. They are settling in nicely and I’m enjoying them a lot. Newly acquired high fidelity CT2 interconnnect and cerious technologies graphene extreme speaker cables with some transparent audio speaker cables inbound
Lot of moving pieces presently. But I’m quite excited to be the guinea pig for the Mudorf ( I assume it’s a proper AMT) tweeter in the Encore design.
Oh that is exciting! I'm like you. I would let him do his thing and expect it to turn out well; and I bet it will. Ribbons have their plusses an minuses from what I've read, but they are supposed to be silky smooth and detailed if more directional.
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