I have dedicated audio room 14.5x20.5x9 ft. Currently have Marantz Reference CD/Intergrated paired to Magnepan 1.7's with REL T-7 subs. For the vast majority of music I love this system. The only nit pick is that it is lacking/limited in covering say below 35 hz or so. For the first time actually buzzed the panel with an organ sacd. Bummer. Thought of upgrading subs to rythmicks but then I will need to high pass the 1.7's. Really don't want to deal with that approach.
Enter the Double Impacts. Many interesting things here. Would certainly have a different set of strengths here. Dynamics, claimed bottom octave coverage in one package, suspect a good match to current electronics.
I've read all the threads here so we do not need to rehash that. Just wondering if others out there have FIRST HAND experience with these or other Tekton speakers
Please note this is not a personal attack on Jeffery just a strong comment on his setup of his Ulf's:
Are you freaking serious! I would not setup an inexpensive pair of speakers the way this 12K world class speaker is placed in this room. Any rear ported speaker should at least be, if possible around two feet off the front wall, otherwise you muddy up the bass big time. By having the inner front edge of the Ulf's parallel to the cabinet would totally negate the speakers ability to develop center fill and a deep soundstaging. They also are quite close to the side walls/corners that would create early disruptive reflections and again interfere with overall clarity, imaging and lead to a booming/muddy bass response.
Certainly, there are speaker designs that are designed to be placed right on the front wall to develop their soundstages, but the Ulf's is not one of them. I have heard the DI's setup in a very similar fashion and found that their performance was tremendously effected negatively in that system.
Without using room treatments the closest I would place the DI's or Ulf's to the front wall would be, if possible, at least two and a half feet, and from the side walls at least the same distance. I'm very lucky in that I have a special acoustic space both in size and how much wood is used throughout the room which leads to a very natural acoustic environment for any speaker I review. It saddens me that this proud owner of these very special speakers will not really hear the magic of what the Ulf's can do if placed in the correct position in the right sized room.
It's like putting a world class racing horse in a kiddy corral dooming him never to run free at his total potential /speed.
@mac48025 - Hmmmm...curious. You know, I can't remember exactly what Eric said, but he said that the ports on the back of his speakers don't act as usual ports. I'm not sure what that was about, but maybe @tektondesign design can talk a little bit about that. Because, as is, they seem to exhibit characteristics of full range single drivers that I've played with, inasmuch as sure, they sound better out in the room, but you can get them pretty darn close to the wall. I mean, it can't be magick. There has to be some science behind it.
At any rate, I'm committing myself to at least learning the basics of the Sumiko method of speaker placement, because it should work in any room, to let the speaker/room pressure paradigm play itself out in a natural way.Then add room correction and/or treatment as needed...*if* needed!
The only speakers I have in-house as the moment are Dynaudio 340s, so if I play around with them an the Sumkio method and come out aces, with better SQ, I would imagine the mini-Ulfs would work much better, whether the room dictates a few inches or a few feet.
Like teajay I found the DI's to sound best out into the room. Having said that they still sound very good close to the back or side walls. I found the same went for the Enzo's. It's more surprising with the DI's though as they are rear ported and I assume the Ulfberhts are also. Great sounding speakers that aren't fussy about placement.......gotta luv it.
I noticed that...wow, your Ulfs aren't that far away from the front walls. Can that even be a foot behind your speakers? What's more, really no space to speak of the side walls, either.
This seems to be a reoccurring theme, that the Tekton speakers don't necessarily need that much room to breath, or shine. I've seen it myself at Raven Audio and Bullitt's house.
Terry, on the other hand has his Ulfs really far from the front and side walls.
When I spoke to Eric he said maybe a foot from the front and side walls, and said that he wouldn't make a claim that any more distance would do much good. I imagine, like any speaker, that the placing is going to be room dependent, yet I still wonder that what if @teajay placed his Ulfs very close to the front and side walls as a part of his review, he might answer some questions for those people who are thinking about buying Tekton, but they wonder if the larger models are too large.
porscheracer - "Do the Rothwell attenuators alter the sound signal. I suspect they must. Any experienced there?"
No negative impact on the sound that I could detect. Rothwell's website is quite good explaining how they work. I bought mine awhile ago but I think they are around $50 so not a huge expense either.
The output impedance of my preamp in tube gain mode SE is 210 ohms. Is that considered high?
No, not in itself. However the majority of tube preamps have a coupling capacitor in series with their outputs, which in some cases can cause their output impedance to rise from relatively low values at the mid-range frequency the spec is usually based on (e.g., 1 kHz), to as much as 3K or 4K in the deep bass region. (The impedance of a capacitor increases as frequency decreases). And in many circumstances that **variation** in output impedance can be more of an issue than the 3K or 4K value itself.
I couldn’t find relevant published measurements on the Freya, so it would probably be a good idea to ask the manufacturer what its output impedance in tube gain mode is at 20 Hz.
Porscheracer, some people have reported that using Rothwell attenuators has resulted in adverse sonic effects such as a reduction in perceived dynamics. Others have reported excellent results with them. I am in the latter group, having used the unbalanced 10 db version for several years, a few years ago. (My present system configuration doesn't require them).
I suspect that a major factor in the disparities among these reports is the impedances of the components they are being used with. The worst case scenario figures to be an output impedance of the component providing the signal to them that is high and also varies significantly as a function of frequency, together with an input impedance of the component they are providing a signal to that is low.
I officially hate the double impacts! I can't get nothing done anymore! I just listen 👂 like a crackhead all day at home 🏡. I'm drawn to them like a flies to a bug 🐛 zapper. #1stWorldProblems 😂
Hi Cal 37 13, 1 Al as is par for the course raises legitimate concerns. 2 As several of us have suggested see what Israel thinks about this potential amp and speaker pairing. 3 I’d also seek feedback from Eric, is this a good match or would he recommend the Double Impact 8 ohm version? 4 As I wrote earlier the Double Impacts "may" be an exception in this scenario. If you decide to talk to Israel and Eric let us know what they suggest. The Coincident Frankenstein switched to 4 and 8 ohm speaker taps a few years ago. You and I have the earlier (original) 8 and 16 ohm tap model. Charles
porscheracer - "Anyway, I am pretty sure the hum is gain related. My preamp has 14dB of gain in tube mode and the amp has 27dB. That's a lot of gain for speakers as efficient as the Double Impact. If I put the preamp into passive or JFET mode with 0dB gain, the hum gets quieter but it is still there. If I unplug the RCA cables from the amp, it's gets a tiny bit quieter. This mirrors what the preamp and amp designer said would happen with high efficiency speakers.The First Watt F7 has 14dB of gain so I would be cutting 13dB. About the same as going into passive or JFET mode on the preamp."
Not sure if you got your excessive gain/hum problem resolved but if not try out the Rothwell attenuators. They are plug and play a come in -10db, -15db and -20db. I've used them in various systems over the years with great results. Here is a link: http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html
Cal3713, I agree with Charles that it seems evident that the 4 ohm DI impedance is a particularly benign one, with relatively little variation over the frequency range compared to most 4 ohm speakers, and little if any in the way of challenging phase angles.
However two things can be said with a fair amount of certainty: Running the 8 ohm taps of your Franks into the 4 ohm impedance of that version of the speaker will significantly reduce the power capability of the amp, and will result in some degree of degradation of its distortion performance. And there certainly could be other sonic consequences as well.
Personally, I don’t like the idea of introducing a known and likely significant compromise into the configuration of a system, on top of all of the unknown and unpredictable tradeoffs, compromises, and effects that are inevitably present in a system. And in a hobby where many concern themselves with things that are likely to be far less significant, even things like which way a fuse is oriented.
Without a strong endorsement of the idea from Mr. Blume I would not even consider it. At least without the opportunity for an **extended** audition, and I would be hesitant to invest the time that would require given my suspicion that the result would stand a good chance of being negative.
Jeffrey: I see why you went with the full size Ulfs. Next to your cabinet, they do not overwhelm the room. They don't look like the large speakers that they are in that setting. It works out well, IMO
Jeffrey: I thought they'd sound better than they did. It sounded a lot like the sound coming out those little speakers on the back of a cheap monitor. oh... wait... never mind. I'm sure they'll sound better when I hook a pair of Ulfs to my computer.
Adam, I relate to your 300b vs el 34 amplifier and preferring the 300b. I have an el 34 40 watt amplifier and a 100 watt PP amplifier (60 watt Triode mode). I am currently listening to a First Watt S.I.T.amplifier (40 watt push pull special D.I.Y. design of Nelson Pass ). Perhaps the best solid state amplifier I've heard (generous loan from an audiogon buddy 😊).
Yet in direct comparison the 300b SET is more natural in tone and timbre, more 3 dimensional, lively and just has that elusive "breath of life " quality that the excellent First Watt can't match. Bottom line, the First Watt is overall a sonically impressive amplifier, the SET conveys more emotion and soul. Charles
Hello Cal 37 13 and Adam, Ordinarily I’d suggest choosing the higher speaker impedance if that’s an offered option. Ralph (Atmasphere) has pointed out numerous times that in addition to an easier load for the amplifier there’s less distortion produced driving the higher impedance.
It appears that the Double Impacts are an exceptionally easy load despite their 4 ohm impedance (probably relatively flat impedance curve and no steep phase angles). Cal I suspect that the Frankenstein’s 8 ohm tap would likely be sucessful driving the 4 ohm Double Impacts.
A phone call or email to Israel Blume sure wouldn’t hurt. Charles
I had the 8 vs 4 ohm discussion with Eric very early on. Eric does not like to build 8 ohm speakers. He thinks it's old technology and it subverts all his efforts to make the speakers as efficient as possible, if I remember the conversation correctly. He turned me away from that idea very quickly.
@kdude66 Kenny, Minis keep resurfacing. Originally firmly in fashion in the 1960s. They have shown up from time to time. Mid late 80s through the early 90s. Then again around '03 '04. Based on history, a reappearance is likely, though when is a good question. All bets are off, if part of the gyaru subculture...though Utah isn't considered a hotspot.
Sounds like the 1812 of Ulfberhts........you guys might be onto something here! I'll need to start building an auditorium. I say lets go all out with two 18" woofers, two 12", four 6" and four tweeter arrays. Sensitivity of 104 or so, sounds like a winner to me but I'll have to settle for the mini Ulfberhts........poor, poor me :)
I know in the past I have used and preferred the 8ohm taps from other amps with other than Tekton speakers with good results.
I have no experience with the franks and I haven't used a tube amp with my 4ohm DI's other than my Zotl40 and that's not a issue. You may want to call Israel at Coincident and ask his opinion.
I would hold out for the Ulf Maxi 3 tweeter arrays, 2 16in bass drivers and 8 6in mid bass. Sure, I made all that up, but Eric won't be outdone. It's probably on the drawing board! :-)
Please share some pics when the Ferrari red DI’s arrive! I liked the Enzo’s I saw in red. My wife thinks I should have gotten Mini Ulfs in red but I went for Porcshe agate grey.
You hit the nail on the head Kenny. What the DI's do best is totally disappear and let the music flow. While they do all the "audiophile" sound effects very well, what I appreciate most about them is how natural......real.....right.....they sound. The PMD line sounds like they take that a step further and that's very impressive. As much as I love my DI's it looks like I need to start saving up for the mini Ulfberhts or DI SE's. Thanks to everyone for sharing their experiences with these amazing and fun speakers.
I see no issue using either amp you have with the 4ohm taps with a pair of 4ohm Di speakers. The 8ohm version of DI's may take much longer to get and are harder for Eric to build and they will be about 3db less efficient, if that matters to you and it would make a difference with a 8watt 300b set amp.
I'm using a LTA Zotl 40 and also a couple different first watt amps with my DI's and I have a Yamamoto A09s amp which is a 300b set amp that has 4 and 8 ohm taps but I haven't tried it yet,waiting on some new tubes to show up.
I tried a consonance pp el34 Intergrated and used the 4 ohm taps with no issue.
One thing to keep in mind about the DI's is they don't dip any lwr than 4ohm Impedance load and they are very easy to drive with about any amp you would want to use.
I'm a long way from Minnesota or you would be welcome to listen to mine.
I don't know how the red will do but my Ferrari black metallic finish without question forces the sound waves out of the speakers in a way that's much better sounding unlike some speakers do with the sound stuck in the box. Meaning the DI's are highly resolving and transparent but they also just disappear and just let the music ebb and flow in such a natural way.
But you probably already know this since you have had your pair longer than me.
Long-time Tekton Lore user looking to upgrade to the DI.
I use a 300B amp I built based on the WE 91 circuit using Sophia Electric 300B meshplates tubes and Sophia 91-01 OPT's. The output secondary windings are 4 or 8 ohm.
I also have a EL34 PP amp with 4 and 8 ohm secondaries.
My question is: what speaker should I order? 4 or 8 ohm?
Also, are there any DI's in the upper midwest I can demo? I am located in Minneapolis.
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