Hi Terry,
Yes I eagerly await your Ulfberths review and direct comparison with the Double Impacts. I'm very curious to learn if the Ulfberths are just more hifi spectacular or are they genuinely superior in the more important realm of music reproduction and emotional involvement. I have full confidence that you'll sort this out 😊
Charles |
@teajay "I wish the individuals who are experienced with high power SS amplifiers
on the DI's could spend some time with a SET amplifier, they might find
it very hard to go back to their SS gear."
Question TJ... Take a $4K budget. Using the DIs for Stereo and HT applications. I would need a Preamp with an HT Pass-Through mode similar to what the Odyssey Calandra offers to incorporated it simplistically into my system to make it user friendly for the others in my household. What SET based Pre and Power amp would your recommend to power the DIs to at least 110dB in a well treated room that's 20 deep, 14wide and 12 high and a distance of 12ft from the mains? And I don't play chamber music. My most recent purchase was Bleachers.
Lastly, I don't want to demo this in a store. I don't want to have to deal with a dealer coming to my house. I would be willing to buy the unit if they would agree to a trial/return similar to Tekton and Odyssey. So far I've contacted a couple of tube manufactures and they are all into the Soup Nazi marketing mode. I, in fact, contacted Rogue last week and that was what I got from them. I'm very interested in your response.
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Hey bullitt5094,
First, I would highly recommend that you contact Mark or Will at Linear Tube Audio and ask how much the upgrade is to modify a Micro-ZOTL to have a HT-bypass installed. The cost of this piece is around $1,700.00. Nothing and I mean nothing can touch this in its performance as a preamplifier for thousands of dollars more.
Next, call Steve at Quest For Sound and ask if they still have any Consonance Cyber-30 SET 2A3 amplifiers in stock that retail for $1,150.00. I mentioned this earlier on this thread that for the $ this well built little amplifier sounds great being driven by the Micro-ZOTL on the DI's. I do believe that each of these companies have a return policy if you are not pleased with the piece. I had the volume control taken out of the circuit, which is very easy to do by removing one set of wires, which increased the performance of Cyber-30 greatly, but you could still get your take on it to see if it's what you want, knowing it gets better by the easy modification and be able to return it if you are not satisfied.
If you really play your system at 110dB peaks, hope not very often-even on movie sound tracks for the sake of your hearing, I can't guarantee you will hit this sound pressure range, however you might be shocked how close you would be able to come to it. I have a very large acoustic space and have no problems filling it at very high volume levels with no attenuation/distortion at all. If you are that concerned about this you could try the Cyber-10 ( KT66 or 6550 tubes) that puts out around 12 watts, compared to the Cyber-30 2A3 5 watts, but different tubes have different sonics, so I can't predict what this amp sounds like. I do like KT66 and 6550 power tubes, however, they don't sound like 2A3's.
The total retail price for both pieces is $2,850.00 way under your budget of 4K which leaves enough money to do some serious tube rolling! If you contact either of these vendors tell them that I say hi. |
Charles,
I'm having more fun than I have ever had,Offcourse I have more time to listen than ever.
What I have is a diy nos Sony Vfet sit amp that is push pull class a producing 40 watts into 4.The design was given to the diy community from Nelson's gracious nature.I have heard a production version of the first watt sit 2 stereo version but I have never owned one.I did use to own the J2 and I believe my Sony amp splits the difference in sound qualities between the 2.
The Sony Vfet amp brings more of the tube set characteristics to the table than any other SS amp that I have ever heard.Now can it fully replace a quality set tube amp,No way if that's the sonics that a person desires.
I did build the diy first watt F5 and F5 turbo version a few yrs back but I did'nt build the Sony one,I did'nt put my order in quick enough to purchase matched pairs of nos Sony Vfet's and now they are all gone.
I will always keep a set tube amp around for reference and probably will find my way back to them in the future.My favorite tube is the 2a3,I have had several and have also built a couple.But honestly a Sep with el34's done right is not bad either.
Teajay,
I'm looking forward to reading about your opinion on the big boys from Tekton and I always enjoy reading your common sense honesty on any of your posts.
The Brimar 6060 is the quietest variety of the 12at7 family of tubes,I wish I still had some,very hard to come by now.The Brimar cv4024 is a close second.I use very high quality 1950's mullards and Amperex bugle boys 12at7's in my MZ2s.
Best,
Kenny.
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Hi Kenny,
Thanks for the compliment regarding my posts. I owned a First Watt SIT-2 and think it's a very special amp in its own right. It really needs to be driven by a great preamp because it is completely transparent/neutral/grainless and is totally influenced by the upstream line-stage. Great, but different then a SET tube amp in the way it presents the music. |
Teajay,
that consonance cyber 30 looks like a fun little 2A3 SET amp to play with until I can order the Triode Lab 2A3S FFX. Approximately how close will the Cyber 30 get me to the Triode Lab? Thanks. |
Keep an eye peeled out for a set of George Wright 2a3 monoblock Amps. Point to point wired with high quality trannys and great sound. Around $1000 used. I like point to point vs circuit boards and having owned these amps I can tell you they are great. Easy to upgrade coupling caps etc...if one wants to. These amps can also run 300b tubes if you like. I liked the 2a3 tube better in these amps when I compared on my Cain & Cain IM Ben's. |
Hi mac48025,
A good guess would be around 60% to 70% of the Triode Labs amplifier. The Triode Labs takes the music to a higher level of finesse and does everything better across the board. However, the Cyber-30 ain't bad at all, actually it's quite good for the money.
If you would want to borrow mind, you are more then welcome. Just Email at terryjaylondon@gmail.com |
@milpai
Sources: Theta Data III, Yggdrasil, Modwright Sony CD player. Actually iPad streaming through an AirPort via Yggy is better than I would have thought. Convenience has its merits. I’ve also heard modifying a MHDT Pagoda yields great results.
Everything else is up for grabs. I’m getting very good sound (easily exceeding my expectations) temporarily using an Audio-GD Master 6 SS preamp and a simple pro audio 2 Ch Roland 150 watt power amp (which is only turned up to 9:00). Ultimately, I’ll be exploring tube based amplification options. The DI’s seem like a perfect option to build a system around. The DI SE and Ulfberht II’s have my attention as well.
Someone asked about the stands in the picture. They are the IsoAcoustics ISO-L8R430.
Bill |
Bill,
Great to hear that you are having good results with your setup!
I have a Schiit Yggdrasil in my chain also. I'm using a Small Green Computer - Sonore microRendu combination off of an Ethernet switch. Roon / Tidal as the software with multiple devices serving as remote and the SGC as Core. With excellent results, also.
I'm working on getting a bit more out of the Yggy via footers/platforms/weights for isolation, damping, etc.
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I have had the pleasure of listening to some fine SET amps, Jcarcop's included. And have enjoyed them very much. And when talking tubes, I am ONLY ever interested in SET designs; push pull tube amps do nothing at all for me.
But, I favor good SS designs these days. My comments, while phrased to be annoying, were true. The good things our ear likes on tube/transformer amplifers are a function of tiny eq (sub half db), some resonant behavior, and the spectra of the distortion which all add flavoring to what might be sterile sounding digital music. I just prefer to do that in software, where I can turn if off if it's not in the service of the music (For instance, if the album was mastered with all sorts of tube gear and or digital plugins. In that case, too much of a good thing.) And, of course, because I love the challenge of finding just WHAT it is we are hearing that we like! Turns out that the great mixing and mastering engineers have known for decades. |
@teajay thanks of the recommendations. Do you feel comfortable that 11-12 watts will be enough in a LR Mains HT application? And no, I don't listen to 110dB as a norm. But I would like to have a bit of head-room to facilitate the more dynamic music that generally includes a considerable quantity of low end. Considering that, would I need to incorporate a Sub to help the tube amp on the low end?
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Hi bullitt5094,
I believe that anywhere from 5 to 10 watts driving the DI's would be fine in a HT LR Mains setup. My room has 30 foot ceilings, is 28 feet wide, and 40 feet in depth and I have no problem with volume levels or dynamics on all types of music with 5 watts. I have always used a pair of sub-woofers in my room crossed over at 30 at very low volume levels not for bass extension or reinforcement, but for ambient cues that fill out the depth/width of the sound-stage created in my room. Since I drive this pair directly from the Micro-ZOTL I'll often shut off the amp to show what the subs are really adding to my listeners and they often laugh at how little they really are adding, yet if I turn them off the sound-stage flattens out and loses its 3D perspective. This also means that the DI's being driven with 5 watts is producing the low end grunt on its own when the music contains this type of bass frequencies. |
Bullitt,
Now I truly understand the passion for set tube amps that Teajay and others have,I've owned several good ones over the yrs.I only have one now but I'm presently more focused with various SS amps driven by the LTA MZ2s preamp.
If I recall you have a fairly large room and you occasionally listen loud approaching 110db levels.My room is 20x25x9 with a open kitchen on one end and I don't need the 40 watts of the amp that I'm using to reach those kind of sound levels.I sometimes listen to full orchestra very loudly and have all the pwr I need without subs.Since getting the DI's my subs haven't even been turned on for music.
One option for you is maybe look at a push pull El-34 tube amp,might split the difference for your needs.That would give you 35 to 40 watts,and a good one will give you a high percentage of the Set sound signature that you may like.If you don't mind a slightly used one you could probably find a good one for about 2k maybe less.
Best of luck to you,
Kenny.
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Thanks Kenny. What I have on order already is a tube pre-amp and what I believe is an exceptional SS amp from Odyssey. Terry gives me the impression he believes anyone who listens to an SET amp will never consider a SS again. And I am willing to test that theory if I can find something I can afford that will actually fill my personal requirements of system dynamics. I don't think a 10 watt SET will get there. And when you start looking at any high quality tube design up in the 50 watt range, it gets stupidly expensive very quickly. But, I bought Tekton not expecting them to replace my B&Ws and they did. Nobody can accuse me of not being open minded.
But I've pulled enough away from the main point of this thread. I'll wait for the Odyssey to arrive. If I love it, end of story. And I'm relatively sure I will.
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bullitt,
Klaus probably already mentioned it to you but be prepared for a rollercoaster ride for a couple weeks with the Odyssey amp. They have a notoriously long break in time which I can attest to. Should sound pretty good after that and will continue to improve for months. |
Hi bullitt5094,
This is my final attempt to try to explain to you why you owe to your self to at least hear a SET amp on the DI's.
Klaus' amps are quite good, and great bargains for the money, however they do not compete sonicly, in my opinion, with the latest generation Pass Labs XA.8 series, Perla Audio, and even with many of the First Watt amplifiers. I have owned all of these great amps, yet they still can't do certain things like a SET amplifier.
No SS amplifier presents the music like a SET amplifier. I could get into the liquidity, color ,tonality, flow of the music that is quite magical with these simple circuit designs, but you really have to hear it for yourself, no words can replace actual experience. Your DI's give you the opportunity to try one out, if its not your cup of sonic tea, so be it. Historically, I loved the sound of SET's, but hated almost all the speakers that you had to use with them ( Horns and single driver designs) that had flaws and shortcomings for my taste.
Now, with the DI's which are reference level transducers with virtually no flaws you can use SET amplifiers with a full range highly dynamic box enclosure speaker which did not exist at this level in the past. I'm sure there is a way, hell you can borrow my Cyber-30, so at least you would really know how different the experience is between SS amps and SET amps.
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Yes he did mofojo but thanks for confirming your experience. I believe the term he used was "adventure". I asked if I should just do some continuous music to get some hours on it and said "No! You will want to hear every hour of the process." The man is into his craft. That's for sure.
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A couple of questions I'll throw out there to no one in particular:
Anyone have experience with Linear Tube Audio AND Melody preamps?
There have been mention of 2A3 and 300B SET amps.
What about the 845's? |
Hi Teajay,
What you’ve written on the distinct sonic differences between good quality SS and good quality SET is virtually a mirror image of my amplifier progression and accumulative listening experiences. Musical flow, liquidity, tone, timbre, overtones/harmonics, presence (in the performance venue) 3D presentation, emotional connectivity were superior with a high quality SET amplifier.
One undeniable truth is that people do hear differently and are drawn to various sonic and musical cues. No type of amplifier topology "does it all perfectly " so individuals pick and choose what best suits their own needs. Given this reality I understand why some listeners will prefer a SS amplifier.
Even with an easy to drive speaker such as the Double Impact some will simply prefer to go the SS amplifier route. Your offer to Bullitt to try the Cyber 2A3 SET is a very kind one. Direct comparison with the Odyssey is the true test to make a decision as their own characteristics will be very aopparent.
I could be wrong (certainly) but I get the sense that Bullitt has decided that for his current system and needs that SS and specifically the Odyssey amp is the better match for him. I believe that he will be happy with this choice.
For me (and you Terry) SET if implemented properly has unique and unmatched musical and sonic capabilities. I do recognize that this conclusion won’t be true for every listener. This diversion into discussing amplifier topologies and preference has been quite interesting.
Charles |
Solid-state Class A: Didn’t do it for me
Push-pull SS/Tube: Didn’t do it for me
Class D: (Nords) or Benchmark AHB2: Didn’t do it for me entirely, but definitely an improvement over many PP/SS amps and the very best get closer to a SET in some ways, a viable alternative if your speakers are inefficient or you have a very large room that dictates the necessity for more power than you can get from a SET in your price range.
High quality SET Tube Amplifier with the right Speakers:
Creates a real emotional event that’s dynamic with startling jump factor even at lower volume levels.
Palpability in the midrange and vocal region that can leap out and you think the vocals are simply there in the room with you (startling at times), micro dynamics cues and subtle delays are rendered so well you’re enveloped by a surround sound hologram of the venue using only 2 speakers, tonal textures in instruments that are to die for. A liquidity, and effortless playback that blossoms naturally with no fatigue.
I’m utterly biased in these comments, but nothing connected me emotionally to music more than a well executed SET amplifier and the right speakers.
With EML 300bxls or Elrog 300b at 8 watts the DIs play very loud and lack nothing in the bass region. It doesn’t run out of steam or soft clip and the OPT never over-saturate. If I switch the amp to higher voltage and increase the autobias circuit to 110ma the additional 7 watts from the 300BXL is nice to have at 100db+ playback levels, but it’s overkill, otherwise.
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bullitt,
I would say go with that old saying,there is only one way to find out.
Since Teajay has made a offer to loan you the cyber Amp you might just try it out and then you would truly know if It's your sonic cup of tea or not.
One thing I know for sure is that the DI's are a wonderful speaker to have for amp comparison.I personally hope I never go back to horns,full range,or coaxials of any kind,as mentioned those kind of speakers have way to many shortcomings for the few things they do right.
Charles is 100 percent correct that there is no perfect amp for everyone's individual tastes and sonic presentation preferences.
I've been in this hobby for 31yrs and I still like trying different equipment in my own system,this is the only way that I know if I like it or don't.
I will always have a good SS and tube system that I can change out and get a different sound at a moments notice.
Best,
Kenny. |
If you truly wanted excellent s Loudspeaker that is dynamic, transparent great soundstage,as well as imaging,and bass is not only excellent dual Dual powered opposing subs per cabinet 2 subwoofer drivers ,2 Ncore amps per speaker.
With Anthem Bass room correction. I have heard the double impacts Loud and Dynamic but at a whisper low level detail is not that good and very room dependant in Bass.
The new Martin Logan Masterpiece series the 11A Impression
I just bought after over a month of listening and research
This new series is a land Mark product that puts many speakers 2x the cost To shame .24bit DSP- Bass and Panel runs full range from 300hz
On up. If you have not heard them then you have nothing educated share.This new Masterpiece series is Totally New Top to Bottom
How big your room is would determine how big and bad you want
To be dual 8inch to dual 12 inch powered subs, and 11- 15 inch panels.
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Good to remember that tube amps are not practical for all and impossible for some. For mixed HT and 2 channel use they are not practical. Can't imagine watching TV and movies with $1500 300b tubes😁
I most always have music on in my home. I bet my system runs at least 8 hours daily. Some days much more. Sure, often as background, but I am not going to use a tube amp day after day with this kind of daily use.
Some have small children and do not have the luxury of a dedicated /set aside music room with a door keeping those hot tubes away from children.
Lastly, I have found SET amps shine on certain kinds of music with jazz being one. So the type of music one listens to also plays a role IMHO and based on my experience.
Let's not forget we listen to systems, complete systems. The resulting sound is not a matter of amps alone and the right SS amp as part of a well thought out system and tweaks can certainly deliver on the sound adjectives used for SET amps in this thread. I have tweaked my current rig with wire, capacitors, gear, tweaks etc... to the point that I no longer miss my tube amps and SET amps. It can be done as today's technology and gear is making it a real possibility. It's a great big audio world out there with near endless total system possibilities. No single person can possibly have exhausted and experienced all that can be making definitive statements on the best Impossible. We all must find our own way and settle in on the sound we think is wonderful. Once we have done this remember that where we land is based on finite and biased preferences.
As Charles has eluded to, one may be so captivated with the sound of a 2a3 amp paired with high efficiency speakers that they can't possibly imagine others not thinking it is the pinnacle of beautiful music reproduction. Fact is others may not and do not. Think of it like food. I love Indian food and find the liberal use of spices and resulting flavor to be unbeatable and so very delicious. Others are not particularly fond of it and while that is near impossible for me to understand, it is nevertheless true.
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As someone who doesn't own the Double Impacts I have posted numerous times here. I find this speaker rather fascinating for its reported sound quality, efficiency and flexibility at such an obtainable price for most people.
I'd like to hear the Martin Logan speaker system mentioned by audioman58. My natural inclination is nearly always toward the simpler straight forward approach if given the choice. I really appreciate this simplicity of the Double Impact vs what seems a more complicated Martin Logan alternative.
Of course the verdict relies on actual listening to both which audioman58 has done (and granted it's one man's opinion). From the many comments of owners posted here I haven't gotten the impression that lower volume detail is a problem.
Charles |
Bill (Grannyring),
You made many excellent points and the truth is that there is no universal "best" audio component, rather there's "best" for an individual in specific circumstances. I don't believe that teajay was declaring an all knowing proclamation for everyone to adhere to. He was only sharing his own vast experiences and where they have led him. Well, that’s my inference anyway 😊
Bill if your current SS amplifier gives you what SET offers and, I say great for you and congratulations, I mean that. I've yet to find the pure tone,presence factor and emotional engagement in a SS amplifier as I've heard with excellent SET. Again, this is just my personal experience and has nothing to do with yours. I don't doubt your judgement or impressions at all my friend.
Charles |
Hello all,
From the many comments of owners posted here I haven't gotten the impression that lower volume detail is a problem.
Offcourse this can be system,room and listener dependent.
That's why my DI's were modded by me for my personal preferences.I found my stock DI's only slightly lacking in low level detail and dynamics but they are much improved for my tastes now.
Charles and Granny,
I always enjoy reading your common sense and insightful comments that are unbiased in nature and you both have more than enough experience in this hobby but still retain a openmindness that is truly helpful for the folks that are still discovering and finding their sonic way.
Best,
Kenny. |
@audioman58 I have dual opposed 15" subs in a sealed enclosure. I've experimented with many configurations in my DIY days and the dual opposed was the best I could do for both LFE and clean-tight base for music. I've lowered the crossover frequency quite a bit with the Tekton's though. Especially for music.
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Good to remember that tube amps are not practical for all and impossible for some. For mixed HT and 2 channel use they are not practical. Can't imagine watching TV and movies with $1500 300b tubes😁 My Benchmark DAC2 has a HT Bypass, but I don't need it. I use XLR outs to send the signal to my Dynaudio Powered Monitors for Movies/TV, and the provided single-ended outputs are going to my Art Audio Diavolo SET which is turned off when the TV is on. If I cared about multichannel (I did up until age 25, but haven't cared since) I would use the HT Bypass feature. I most always have music on in my home. I bet my system runs at least 8 hours daily. Some days much more. Sure, often as background, but I am not going to use a tube amp day after day with this kind of daily use. My system is controlled by a smart outlet that is activated by Google Home which also sets a 3 hour timer on the tube amp to power it off. I must tell it to turn on at least 3-4 times a day! I work from home a lot. My tubes are $850-$1200 a pair, but I would likely not use the $1200 pair of Elrogs except for special occasions and run my Emission Labs 300BXLS at 8w instead of their higher wattage rating most of the time which would effectively double or triple the tubes longevity because it's loafing. Some have small children and do not have the luxury of a dedicated /set aside music room with a door keeping those hot tubes away from children.
No children have been harmed in my pursuit and lust for tubes and SET amps. Knock on wood! :-P Lastly, I have found SET amps shine on certain kinds of music with jazz being one. So the type of music one listens to also plays a role IMHO and based on my experience. I agree that certain SETs are limited to some degree by certain genres, but not all SETs fall into that category. My Diavolo amplifier plays at 8wpc or ~15wpc depending on the power transformer windings I use and where I set my autobias circuit to in milliamps which is dependant on the tube I am using. I play very loud house music (presently), deep house music, classic rock, jazz, blues, bluegrass, opera, classical...as long as it's not rap pretty much anything goes. Having a great sounding dynamic speaker as efficient as the DIs affords me the latitude to play whatever I want now with no compromises in volume or quality on any source material, but I'll admit on lesser efficient speakers I've owned in the past there had been previous occasions where things would compress at high volume and soft clip on certain complicated passages more prevalent in certain genres. Let's not forget we listen to systems, complete systems. The resulting sound is not a matter of amps alone and the right SS amp as part of a well thought out system and tweaks can certainly deliver on the sound adjectives used for SET amps in this thread. I have tweaked my current rig with wire, capacitors, gear, tweaks etc... to the point that I no longer miss my tube amps and SET amps. It can be done as today's technology and gear is making it a real possibility. It's a great big audio world out there with near endless total system possibilities. No single person can possibly have exhausted and experienced all that can be making definitive statements on the best Impossible. We all must find our own way and settle in on the sound we think is wonderful. Once we have done this remember that where we land is based on finite and biased preferences. I'll let you know if I ever hear one, but I've yet to hear it in 17years. Years ago when I began this pursuit I auditioned a dozen or so SS amp available to me at my old high end store that I worked at for around a decade in CA, and we only had one SET amp in the store to audition. After 2 months of borrowing equipment, I only missed the SET amp. I bought the store demo for 50% off retail and the owner was glad to unload it because he thought SET lovers are all kit builders and won't pay profit. (not entirely untrue) I do agree we all hear things through a bias. Much like my amplifier, I must have a personal auto-bias circuit towards SET amps and their magic. As long as you're happy with the sound that's all that matters in the end. |
All...
One of the best threads on Agon ever!
Always respect charles1dad, grannyring comments plus jcarcopo,Teajay, Kdude66, many others...bottom line what jcarcopo said, "As long as you're happy with the sound that's all that matters in the end." Trust your own ears. Best to all, mikirob
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Audioman58 7-3-2017
I have heard the double impacts Loud and Dynamic but at a whisper low level detail is not that good and very room dependant in Bass.
The new Martin Logan Masterpiece series the 11A Impression
I just bought after over a month of listening and research
This new series is a land Mark product that puts many speakers 2x the cost To shame .24bit DSP- Bass and Panel runs full range from 300hz
On up. If you have not heard them then you have nothing educated share.
Actually, there are at least a couple of educated things that can be shared by those who haven’t heard them. One is that their specified sensitivity of 91 db/2.83 volts/1 meter, which for their 4 ohm nominal impedance corresponds to 88 db/1 watt/1 meter, combined with the fact that their impedance descends to 0.6 ohms at 20 kHz, would result in their being vastly less versatile than the DI in terms of amplifier selection. Another thing that can be shared is that they have a list price of $10K, obviously far more than the price of the DI. In any event, good luck with your new speakers. Regards, -- Al |
I agree with what uou say where i msy love a 3d sound stage, and fast tight Bass
You may enjoy a slower deep image and a rounder Bass.
I am just Writtung for one guy in particular was saying Wilson grand slams ,
And Big Magico speakers are not as good as the Double impact.
I have heard all 3 the double impact have several strengths but is not
In this elite company just impossible for one their drivers are night and day more
Accurste,as well as the crossover 20x higher quality. Which is the heart of any
LOUDDPEAKER EXCEPT single driver speakers are powered stats the Xover,
Ends at the mid bass 300hz. The Double impact are a great buy I will give that.
Refined and detail champs they are not. If Eric truly wants to prove his Speaker
Give them to Sterrophile John A will test and measure them .That is a True test. |
@charles1dad and @grannyring
Thank you for your perspectives and thoughtful engagement on the topics previously discussed above. Singling both of you out since you don’t own the Double Impacts and yet contribute in such meaningful ways.
@almarg
Thank you for the technical and substance based contributions to this thread. I’m always learning from your posts.
And @ALLOFYOU!!! in the thread...
I’m grateful for all that is shared and discussed, and yes, even from those that offer other alternatives or points of disagreement.
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I believe Bullitt is on the right track in wanting to focus his energy on his most recent purchase. As he stated Klaus offered the suggestion to experience all the changes the amp will offer throughout the break in period.
Along with that ride as Grannyring points out, much can be fine tuned with tweaks, and an almost endless assortment of sound altering options to enhance personal performance.
This hobby even with components of great value still comes at a sizable financial investment (at least in my world it does). He should be allowed the latitude to fully explore the possibilities of his new purchase.
LP |
audioman58
I can’t tell if you’re being serious or trolling us? LOL
My general take on the Martin Logan (nice guy btw), is there's a coherence issue endemic in speakers trying mate woofers with panel speakers of whatever ilk. |
I agree that this is an Awesome thread. Thanks for all the help and advice directed toward me as the noob at this level. My thought process is... first, keep an open mind and then evaluate all information as if the suggestion is the correct answer, even if it doesn't fit my biases. That is REALLY hard for me.
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When I owned Martin Logans I had to get rid of them because my could always discern the discontinuity between the woofers and panel. It drove her bananas. I also knew it was there, but ignored it for a time since I did not want to admit it and take the financial lumps.
Thanks Almarg for your thoughtful, enlightening remarks. You are a stellar assest to this place. Best, mikirob
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I think you're on the right track with the Odysseys and DI's for your HT system, bullitt. I tried for far too long to integrate a tube amp into my HT system before building a dedicated listening room for 2 channel. Once I decide on the DI's, DI SE's or mini Ulfberhts for my two channel system I can focus on getting my HT system again.
I question whether audioman has actually heard the DI's. " refined and detail champs they're not"....... I beg to differ, they are VERY refined and detailed. Maybe he heard them in a system and/or room that is lacking. All too often the speakers get too much credit or blame for how a system sounds.
This thread has been a delight and is the only thread I participate on. There are not only many respected, knowledgeable and astute posters, but they do so with class and dignity. Well done! |
Hey Guys,
Long time audiophile, first time post here! I just got my DI's about a week ago. I absolutely hated them out of the box! No refinement, in you face, dark, and no bass presence. I ran them 24/7 for a few days to get a quick 50+ hours on them, and boy, what a difference! I have had just in the past year Paradigm Trubutes, Legacy Focus SE's (still have now sidelined), and the DI's sound just as good if not better then them. They now have closer to 100 hours on them and they sound wonderful. My only gripe at this point is I wish the bass would fill in a little more and go a little deeper as I hate to use subs with speakers this big. My room is only 12.5 x 14.5 with 7ft ceilings. BTW, using Audio-GD Master 7 Dac with ACSS output to Krell Evo 202 preamp to cast input and hight power SS mono amps. |
Imswjm,
It has been a long time since I used anything from melody,so I can't really directly compare but if I could I'm pretty sure I would be keeping my MZ2S.Melody does make some good products though and if I remember right I think Teajay did review a melody preamp in the past and he probably could answer that better.
I have tried several 845 based sets with the last ones being the pure audio 845 mono's earlier this year.All of the 845's sound like warmish SS to me and I would go maybe for 211 tube instead if I had a need for that kind of pwr in a set transmitter tube amp.
I know some folks like the 845 and there is probably someone using a 845 with DI's.
After using tubed amps of all kinds I do kinda have my preferences and know what I like and don't like.
Best of luck to you,
Kenny.
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Audioman58,
If I had more refinement and detail in my listening room,
I would have to wear a Tuxedo and scrap the detail of the walls with a golden knife.
Now that's some funny stuff.😁😁
Best,
Kenny. |
mac48025
I agree with your assessment of the DIs being very refined and detailed. Told Eric that their accuracy and crescendo capabilities are so good they have reawakened my interest in classical music -- that shows off the dynamic qualities of the DIs to perfection.
Recently ripped a number of the EMI/Warner Karajan recordings. Had not, in the past, listened to them much because of the orchestral sound ideal Karajan developed -- based on fundamental tones and very massive textures.
On the DIs, these massive textures are presented so well that you feel some of the physical power the Berlin orchestra could generate, And it is so strong that the crescendos by themselves become an event worth enjoying.
No other speaker I have heard has been capable of rendering this quality and it speaks directly to your assessment above.
Agree, as well, that the speakers must be in a good acoustical environment in order to hear how well they can sing. Have used wall treatments, Herbie's gliders, careful positioning, and a small amount of APQualizr EQ (run through JRiver) to get the DIs perfect in my setup. The result is a soundstage so secure that performers can be pointed at with ease and who hold their positions rock steady in ensemble.
This thread continues to provide helpful information for the prospective DI buyer -- congrats. |
Ron1264
Have had the DIs for about a month and agree with much of your assessment. Oddly, my set has always had plenty of bass (measured by REW down to 20z) and I am actually using EQ to soften it a little in order to make all balance. This seems to be a room size result as some responders feel the need for a sub and others, like me, find plenty of power there.
The Eminence drivers become substantially more focused when broken in. Have also found that treating the wall behind the speaker removes conflicting sound wave reflections and cleans up the bass sound significantly. |
craigl59,
I think you are correct. I think its a room size issue. If I stand behind my listening position, the bass gets much better. Unfortunately I can't move the seats back as that's how I get into the room. Maybe I'll give bass traps a try, i may be getting some cancellations . |
@ron1264 Congrats on getting your Double Impacts and getting them broken in. A suggestion on getting better bass: the traps will certainly help, but you might want to try raising them a couple of inches and using an isolation footer/platform. Both made a major difference for me. I’m still working out room treatment options, but for now old curtains drapped over small stools behind the woofer ports are helping. |
Craig, it's funny that you mentioned that the DI's have you enjoying classical music again. I've always liked classical music but never bought much of it to listen to.....having the DI's is changing that and I'm adding more classical to my collection. The DI's dynamic qualities along with their detail, refinement and tonal balance makes them perfect for classical music I would think. Perfect for any music actually. Many people assume that due to their large size, large woofers and number of drivers that the DI's are party animal speakers, yet they are as delicate and transparent as any speaker I've owned......and yes, they can rock the house too!
Ron, congrats! Bass shouldn't be an issue at all with the DI's. Like you mine are in a similar size room with low cielings. Floor to ceiling bass traps in each corner worked wonders for me. I think once you get your room situation addressed the bass from the DI's will put a big smile upon your face. I also had the Legacy Focus SE's and found the DI's to have just as deep of bass with better quality, especially in the upper bass regions.
David, great tip for a quick and easy bass trap. |
Mac48025 You might want to check out the Bernstein Concertos and Orchestral Works available at Amazon -- 80 CDs for about $120. These are truly great recordings, many still the best of any recorded. The original Columbia tapes were resampled by Sony at 24/96 and they issued them as a direct transfer to Redbook CD. Everything in the original tape is clearly presented, including the original tap hiss. So, use some software package to remove the hiss and you’ve got a state-of-the-art sound that surpasses any 21st century recording I have heard (ADD can be that good). I rip them into JRiver and then use the Restoration Suite in the German DAW Samplitude to remove the hiss -- takes very little time but 80 CDs will requires an afternoon or so. Curious that Sony left this hiss in the CDs when it is so trivial to remove it with modern DAWs. Could it be because they offered, at the same time, each CD individually in SACD format at $35-65 each? No hiss in the SACDs... Am now listening to the Norah Jones "Come Away With Me" SACD and it is startling in accuracy. The engineers got the original right and the SACD processing brings her into your room. |
David_Ten and Ron1264: Used pillows rather than a stool in the same way and noticed the improvement. This led me to design and construct some wall panels that have cleaned up the issue entirely. Have found that Herbie's gliders not only tighten up the bass but, because of the added vibration control, contribute to a more accurate soundstage. And, as well, if you damp the wall behind the soundstage area (= wall space between the two DIs) then the depth of the stage will open up as it does not have to compete with reflected waves. |
I just love any Norah Jones,we got to see her 4 to 5 yrs ago at the Brady theater which is a smaller more intimate setting.
I just bought a slightly used Zotl 40 at a good price off the gon,
Can't wait to try it with my MZ2S.
Best,
Kenny. |
