Tariffs and sky high audio prices.

@mapman 

Ok, I think I understand. I too am concerned about extremism in any form, especially as a method of whipping up the electorate into a froth. 

As to Breitbart, I just can't seem to even explore what they publish. My path crossed with the central character at Breitbart many years ago and I would rather avoid any exposure whatsoever. Some things a shower won't wash off.

Extremism in audio? I've seen evidence that it is alive and well too. I've seen here on Audiogon where the different camps get all bent out of shape because someone loves their $500 amp while others get bent out of shape because someone else thinks their $100,000 amp is a great value. There is no one size fits all in anything but the person with the $100,000 amp doesn't care if there is a group of picketers out there, certain that anyone spending more than they have arbitrarily determined is the ceiling. The "fuser question", not unlike the "birther question", seems to have no common ground. There are only 3 categories on that front: They absolutely know the truth and have taken a stance, they do not absolutely know the truth but have taken a stance and finally, the "really, don't you have anything better to do than argue over something so trivial?" I'm going to let everyone in on the facts...

(1) fuses work (most of the time, they blow when they are supposed to)

(2) President Obama was born in this galaxy

Take a gander at breitbart.com and you will see. If I have to come up with a label, I’d call the "so many" "nationalists" those who think they are getting the shaft from everyone else, harbor great resentment, and have identified the scapegoats. Much like Germany after WWI.  

@mapman

Please elaborate. Who are the “so many” and who is “others”?

So many seem to just want to blame their problems or shortcoming s on others. It’s human nature I suppose. Whatever happened to people not blaming others, taking responsibility, solving their own problems and making it on their own? I guess that demographic is on the decline in the US these days. Probably due to the inflated standard of living many but far from all have achieved over the years. We all better learn to look out for rather than antagonizing each other sooner rather than later. Also to look out for our planet together as well may as well mention. Unfortunately we seem to be moving entirely in the wrong direction as more and more people fall by the wayside, unable to keep up on their own. At least many have cell phones and headphones capable of making pretty good sounding music these days.

@rodman99999 LOL. I hear you and nothing wrong at all with non US parts or manufacture. That’s kindof the point isn’t it. There shouldn’t be anything wrong with utilizing the best part for the job. That kind of competition forces everything to a higher level of quality and performance. 

My system is a United Nations of gear and they play nicely with one another. Maybe audio systems can be a shining example to world leaders of how to get along. Have a great day.

@blkadr


Between the two choices, the Rogue. LOL

I can't provide in-depth analysis of the intricacies of economic policies. I can report on what I have witnessed over the last couple of decades. 1 party, the self-proclaimed deficit Hawk fiscal responsibility party, warns us of the dangers of tax-and-spend policy.
But when they regain power, suddenly the deficit doesn't matter and they Implement tax cuts that funnel this lost government revenues to the most wealthy.
Meanwhile I'm reminded of the old saying, you can't teach Old Dogs new tricks. One man has proven this wrong, he seems to have taught an entire political party to roll over. This one man seems to be the only one who thinks that tariffs will achieve a desired effect, while the vast majority of his own party disagree but are unwilling to go against him.
That being said, should I get a new Rogue Sphinx V2 or a used Bel Canto?

No doubt! I almost added, "...well- assembled, anyway." Nor- did I mention things such as the Duelund(Denmark), Elna Silmic ll(Japan) capacitors, and HI-FI Tuning(Germany) fuses that I’ve installed. Some things are patently impossible to avoid, nowdays. Guilty, as charged! All a company need do(legally), to claim, "Made in USA", is perform one weld or install one screw/component. Soon, the only thing left, actually made here, will be all those Made in China STICKERS.

@rodman99999

Excellent comments. I respectfully challenge your US made assertion. Maybe that’s what you intended...to buy US made only but I am 99.9 certain that whatever you happen to have in your system, something contains “ingredients” that are not 100% US.

@oregonpapa

Yeah, things seemed so simple in 1956 but it wasn’t all that great if you happened to be non-white. In the USA, the systematic exclusion in the participation of this group in the prosperity of the American dream is well chronicled and beaten to death. We are actually in the midst of the “correction” of that which will take place over the decades to come. Those of Hispanic origin are on the cusp of being the largest ethnicity in the USA, if its not already. The African American group has alot of catching up to do economically but its hard when you factor mass incarceration. As a nation, we incarcerate more non violent offenders than the rest of the developed world. Its mind boggling and mind bogglingly expensive not to mention inhumane. An interesting data point, the amount of US GDP allocated to the penal system here today rivals non war military spending from the time of Eisenhower.

While on the subject people of color throughout the world and the injustices for centuries inflicted upon them, a great deal of the financial data that gets analyzed from history is so skewed that I hardly consider it valid. What data makes any sense from 1860? In the south there wasn’t much cost of labor to factor huh? The Irish were excluded to a large degree and all groups were exploited and grossly underpaid. The latter part of that century marked westward expansion fueled on the backs of immigrant Chinese who were excluded otherwise at every opportunity. The example cited wisely by @millercarbon mentioned the opium wars. Imagine that, Britain invaded China to force them to accept opium for trade payments rather than the silver that was agreed upon. 

I’m too lazy to do the research but when I was in grad school I recall vividly that the GDP of the west (Europe/US) was likely overstated by double digit percentages for the century from 1830 to 1930 due to colonial exploitation of other peoples throughout the globe. Back to the mid 1950’s now Frank. Clinically speaking, it was a great time for the bottom half of the caucasian populace to get ahead. Top tax rates forced investment and there weren’t alot of Rockefellers or Mellons looking to build roads or hammer nails. Fast forward to today and I can understand that the descendants of that middle class that emerged feel threatened. They should from an economic standpoint because the economy values what it values and labor is cheap....elsewhere. Those same Indians and Chinese who were once exploited by the west are willing to work and work hard for alot less than a typical worker from the west. We can argue about quality of work as a differentiator, higher productivity and the moral intangibles we like to pronounce but the reality is their cost of living is less and their willingness to work for a lower amount makes competing economically with their manufacturing base quite difficult. When you hear a politician or a protectionist talking head stating “they should pay a living wage so we are going to slap tariffs on them until they do” are actually saying they should have to build in the decades of wage growth that has been accumulated here. Not gonna happen.

So, is an Indian or Chinese company not going to sell their steel or their cars into the rest of the world because someone with a 4 year shelf life in Washington is trying to raise their approval rating? Do you believe a country with nukes is worried about defaulting on some debt to Citibank? As long as there is someone else in the world willing to loan they aren’t and there is always someone willing to loan. Trying to measure net debt is an interesting thing at the macro level. Who really owes whom? The music stops and only then you discover how few WERE in a net positive on the books. I’m a pretty passive guy and not at all of the half empty camp but I really do believe this time is different. I view myself as a citizen trying to do his part. I pay my bills early, have absolutely no debt, help others when I can and most of all, I don’t get bent out of shape when change is inevitable. Spend any time in the rest of the world and you will discover that the most important change that has happened is the free and unfiltered flow of information. The narrative that we are here to help and spread the gift of western prosperity is not going to cut it any more. That was colonialism 2.0 and the developing world is on to it...we educated their leaders here and they aren’t buying it. They won’t be bullied going forward.

The surplus of labor - the central tenet of capitalism- was realized in China. Wages were minimal. Production cheap. We bought their junk. They win.

The U.S. economy needn’t be destroyed by another country’s actions or policies. A natural disaster(ie: Cascadia Subduction Zone, San Andreas Fault, Yellowstone Caldera, etc), or anything(on either coast) that even temporarily wiped out the electronic funds transfer records, regarding the billions of Dollars, moved EVERY day, via wire, would do the job. Every American citizen, would then be responsible, for what they owe the government. They’d pay, one way or the other. For such as can comprehend the significance: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/10/this-is-how-much-debt-your-country-has-per-person/ Those are simply facts. Digest them, as you please. As I quoted earlier, "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Someone recently added that(somehow), “its different this time”. They forgot, "IT CAN’T HAPPEN HERE!" Only time will tell. Could be another 200 years, or- tomorrow. Hopefully, we won’t be around to see the results of the current, tragic level of willful ignorance, so prevalent in this nation. "Misc Audio" thread qualifier: Except for my Canadian phono stage, everything in my home system is USA made.

@millercarbon

Excellent points all. Your examples are all relevant and reasonably accurate. Debt is a big deal worldwide and defaults trigger some amazing ripples and a few tsunamis from time to time. The nice thing about some debt though is watching the reset. What we have never seen in world history though is an intentional default from a nuclear power. You could argue that Russia was a hybrid but I might suggest they were just trying to find a few loaves of bread after wall fell and the Long Term Capital Management collapse.

The one child policy was effective for China, slowing the exponential and unsustainable population growth while allowing them to get infrastructure and food production to at least a manageable level. Their birthrate is now somewhere between Japan on the lower end and the USA on the higher end, a little more than 1.5 children per capita IIRC.

Once again, China’s international holdings and trade reach rivals ours. The EU will trade with them. Period. The EU was formed to try to establish a trading block to rival us. Whether it stays together remains to be seen but its allegiances will drift further away from the politeness assumed by the US/UK. Additionally, the wave of nationalist/far right movements throughout the world jeopardizes free trade and reasonable discourse.

We all have a ringside seat and it will interesting to witness. This is far bigger than steel but the Chinese will not have to capitulate. Frankly I would be quite worried if they did. That would mean to me that they are buying more time to position.

Been following this thread diligently.  Please moderators don't kill it. It is a great debate to follow and most interesting.
Yes it does affect any and all things audio. 
A very civil discussion between all parties. I'm loving it.

I want to click the heels of my red slippers and make it 1956 again.

Frank

Its real easy, and simplistic, to look at China and see a juggernaut destined to overtake the US, if indeed it hasn't already done so. It really is a simplistic view. I'm not big on the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority (like quoting a Nobel laureate in lieu of actual argumentation) but I would recommend anyone interested pick up a book or watch a few videos with James Rickards or (if you think you have the financial chops) Kyle Bass.

First off neither China nor anyone else can just sell their Treasuries. The Treasury market is controlled by the Fed. (This fact like everything else I am saying is easily verifiable. DYODD.) Besides, even if they did, the way the bond market works is pretty much like everything else- you go to sell a lot, that sends the supply up and the price down. China can only sell so much without driving the price down. Would we take a hit? Sure. Compared to the hit China would take? Ha. They'd be screwed. And they know it, too.

I really cannot recommend enough - THINK don't just regurgitate!

Seriously. Most of what's out there is fake news. THINK! DYODD!

China has had a one child policy for decades. Combined with their preference for boys, China has a very VERY big demographic problem. Lots of single men. And that's just the tip of the demographic iceberg. As the massive legacy population grows older, One Child has left behind a huge drop-off, probably the worst in the world.

China is also a command and control economy. Very inefficient. Search the web for ghost cities. Entire cities- apartments, stores, - enough for millions of people, just sitting vacant. Go watch the videos on their construction quality. Built crazy fast, they crumble just as fast. There's tons of videos and stories. Check em out. DYODD!

Its one saving grace has been the lack of regulation that has allowed near unfettered private enterprise. This is why we see all these Chinese billionaires. Its not that they are so much better or smarter. Its that China allows them to do pretty much whatever they want (Permits? We don't need no stinking permits! Piracy? That's our business model!), and to keep pretty much whatever they can earn.

Is China hoarding gold? Hell yeah. Read your history. Unlike Americans who have never experienced hyperinflation the Chinese have a long history of paper money (possibly invented there) being hyper inflated to nothing. People who talk about the long history of China never seem to have learned this part of it. 

Opium war. Heard of it? British sent warships, forced Chinese to accept opium instead of silver for payment in trade. If China ever acts like its got a great big chip on it shoulder, brother, they do.

Soon as they get some money they buy some gold. Soon as they get a lot of money they get it OUT OF THE COUNTRY! Why, if China is so great, would they do that? Because they know China has no rule of law and a long history of monetary debasement. 

No rule of law. No faith in the currency. Not to mention a population so spied upon and controlled they already have millions who can't take a plane because the facial recognition software caught them stepping off the curb before the light changed. Not exactly ingredients for prosperity.

One more, as if the above aren't enough. Math. Sorry. But do the math. Yes China (and Russia, and Iran, and a bunch of other countries) are working diligently on establishing direct currency exchange outside the dollar. This is the REAL reason behind all the hoo haw about Russia, etc. But again, do the math. The USD market is beyond trillions. With derivatives it is into the quadrillions. Last I saw the derivatives market was 15 quadrillion, notional. Its truly astronomical. The Treasury bond market, just the T-bill part of it. is so vast as to be beyond their reach any time soon.

Almost forgot! Debt! Every country in the world is up to their eyeballs in it. And make no mistake- debt is not a problem. Problems have solutions! When you are in a plane and the pilot collapses you have a problem. When you are falling from the plane without a parachute then my friend you are in a predicament. Globally and locally, debt is a predicament! (Illinois, anyone? Anyone? Beuller?)

There is a range of debt to GDP that has been studied in many countries and shown that once debt reaches 105% of GDP its Game Over. Going by memory so could be 106, could be 110, but its in there somewhere. Like I said DYODD. Point is, from then on there's no coming back. No country of hundreds studied went anywhere from there but hyperinflation. Weimar Germany, Zimbabwe, Venezuela- those are just the ones you probably know about. There's a lot more. DYODD? Okay I will do this one for free: 28 countries just in the last 25 years!http://www.munknee.com/21-countries-have-experienced-hyperinflation-in-last-25-years-is-the-u-s-next...


So here's the thing. The US is right there. Depending on how you  measure we are right there or a just over the line. But guess what? China is a whole lot worse!

For sure China is a serious global competitor and not to be taken lightly. The way things were going until 16 we were on the road to being a wholly owned subsidiary of China, Inc. Not any more.

Just a little perspective. DYODD.

I wouldn't bet against China. Back in the late '80s, early '90s, they were predicted to be eating our lunch by leading economists and the Pentagon.

Being at the top of the food chain, directing policy or just observing, they saw all the trends that would lead to our present situation and urged us to be prepared for it.

No one really listened. Now it's a great hobby horse to rail against. TPP was meant to reign in China on all sides to combat their aggression but someone who didn't like his legacy decided to dismantle every thing he did. Go figure.

All the best,
Nonoise

Moderators ...

Please don't delete this thread. It is very informative and entertaining as well. Plus, there are no knife fights or gunfire, just an exchange of ideas between friends.

Thanks ...

Frank

@millercarbon @nonoise 

Many thanks to both of you for posting salient points. @inna , salient means “really bitchin”. The real problem, of course, is that there is no way to know absolutely for certain because there are so many forces at play. Some food for thought...

As we all know, the old saying goes “those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it” and “its different this time”. Those two statements have cost alot of smart people alot of money over the centuries. I would also submit that to assume that past tariff actions and outcomes are applicable today is dangerous. The good news/bad news at least is the current tariff decision maker doesn’t read history so we will have a few random decisions and data points to analyze in the centuries to come.

I would submit that tariff policies prior to 1929 should be evaluated individually and there was typically a strong player being punitive with another strong player. In modern history, there was alot of back and forth between the USA and Great Britain. There are certainly other examples but that is the relationship most often examined. They/we were the only world powers at the time with momentum.

Now fast forward...there are plenty of choices of trading partners today that simply were not factors prior to the early twentieth century. The largest democracy on earth today (India) was enslaved at the time by Great Britain. Same goes (for all practical purposes) for China. Between the UK and Japan, China has been exploited for much of modern history and every european country seemed to have “claimed/colonized” every square inch of South America, Central America and let’s not forget the African continent and the middle east. Again, colonies all.

Prior to the second world war, oil was controlled by the US and the UK and it was traded in British pounds. Tariffs end up being either protectionist or punitive. In today’s integrated, global economy where information, shipping, fund flows, data flows and communication is virtually instantaneous its naive to believe a punitive tariff will change the behavior of countries with a choice. Mexico doesn’t have a choice...that’s like beating up the gentle little kid next door. Sure, you can win but what do you win?

Now let’s look at China. They are 20 years from not giving a darn what Washington does because they have wisely invested and diversified. They have almost reached economic parity with the USA in a little more than 1 generation. The present tariff policy in Washington amounts to kicking a lion cub....try that when they finish growing. And China is growing and is unstoppable. The EU, South America and Africa will buy their steel. Australia has become an economic colony of China. I don’t lament any of this as its the natural progression of things. Countries rise and fall throughout history. The silk road predated the USA and China isn’t just a flash in the pan, its real and has critical economic mass without the constraints of those pesky issues like an opposition to pay to play (read:bribery) cultures, etc.

So, since no one has a perfect crystal ball, all we can do is guess. My guess though is our present tariff strategy will hasten the development of a world economy dominated by the Chinese first, then the USA/Britain will be fighting it out to stay ahead of the EU but when the former Soviet block aligns (and I include Russia) with the EU they will lap the USA/Britain without the anglo influenced mitigator. So, there we have it...or not. I could be completely off base and China may run home at the idea they might see a mean tweet, get their feelings hurt and capitulate. What do you think they will do? They already build a better Tesla than Tesla AND have these really cool pods scattered everywhere that you can pull your electric car into and in 5 minutes you drive out with a freshly charged battery pack swap!!! For half price. They have another strategic advantage over the west that they haven’t had to use. I hate to say it but they can press their populace into instant austerity at the stroke of a pen. Its not morally something we believe palatable but they are not going to blink guys, they don’t have to have us. Oh, and if you don’t think the North Korea/US “conversations” aren’t a Chinese test marketing of how to negotiate with the USA well.....

Their final ace up their sleeve, they can begin to sell the huge cache of US treasuries they own to fund any trade issues for the near to medium term. What will that do to the yields the USA would have to provide to future purchasers of treasuries. In the past, someone would just start a war and take what wasn’t rightfully theirs. That’s impossible in the information age with a militarily powerful country in the nuclear age.

Who is betting against China?  That would be like betting on your local high school againt the New England Patriots. Its really sweet sentimentally.  We need them to need us but we can’t force that as in decades past.

millercarbon ...

Here’s a little personal info: My mother worked for the Federal Reserve Bank in downtown L.A. for over 30 years. She was the first woman to make it into management.

Sometimes on Friday, I would take the bus or streetcar to the bank and she and I would go to lunch. I was only nine years old, or thereabouts. And yes, it was perfectly safe for a child to travel alone at the time. I did it all the time.

My Mom got paid on Fridays so she always had her pay envelope with cash in it. One time, we were sitting at the lunch table and she pulled out a twenty dollar bill. She pointed out the writing on the top and said, Frank, do you see what it says on the top? It says "Silver Certificate." She went on to say that she could take that twenty dollar bill into any Federal Reserve bank and demand twenty dollars in silver in exchange for the twenty dollar bill and the teller had to give it to her. She told me that, that was what made the country great. She said, that if that ever changed, the country would be in trouble. Of course, I didn’t understand what she meant at the time, but I sure do now.

The national debt is over 22 trillion now. Hey, we can even fund wars with counterfeit money and pay the piper down the road ... or at least our grandchildren and great-grandchildren can. This debt represents labor not yet expended and production not yet produced.

I actually took a tour of the inside of the Federal Reserve bank with my Mom and an escort. We went down into the vault, which as I remember, was several stories underground, and saw money stacked from the floor to the ceiling. One of the workers handed me a brown-wrapped package to hold, then told me that I was holding a million dollars. Wow! A thrill for a nine-year-old kid. Then, they showed me the blast furnace where they burned the old money. Geeze, they were shoveling cash into the furnace! Now, they just tax it away.

By the way, another thing people should ponder is the fact that when our money is borrowed into existence, they never loan the interest. Maybe as a point of interest, you could comment on that little tidbit. :-)

Frank

Two characters come to mind from Through the Looking Glass,
Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb.

Good one, Frank!

Another clue to what is really causing all this inflation- fiat currency -

Prior to 1964, back when you could buy a gallon of gas for a dime or so, that dime was minted out of silver. Not pure silver, but still. Flash forward to today, gallon of gas more like $3 or 30 times as much. But you can still buy it with a dime. It just has to be one of those pre-1964 dimes. Because of the silver in the dime it has pretty much retained its purchasing power.

I can even recall driving by a gas station advertising ten cents a gallon, and a restaurant selling cheeseburgers for a quarter- in both cases when paid for with pre-1964 coin.

Here’s a nifty quote for anyone still thinks Krugman has a clue:

By 2005 or so it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s.
- Paul Krugman

As Bugs Bunny used to say, what a maroon!

nonoise sez ...

@millercarbon,

• "In all seriousness, are you on a Kool-Aid IV drip that you pull around on rollers?"

I suspect, nonoise, that when it comes to economic theory, you are a fellow traveler of Robert Reich. *lol*

Here, have a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_LkMWP2Q2A

PS: Millercarbon ... that was a good five-cent cigar. I know, because I got sick on a few as a kid. They were called Roi-Tan cigars at the time. Here’s a Roi-Tan commercial:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0C3Q0XfCYs

Frank

The Great Depression was caused by misdirected monetary policies of the Federal Reserve. The "Roaring 20s" were roaring for a reason. The economy was overheated by the Fed's policies. Then they tightened up the money supply too far and the economy crashed.

FDR exacerbated the problem, extending what would have been a normal business cycle downturn with all of his convoluted make-work programs, excessive spending, and the confiscation of gold coin and bullion in 1933. 

 FDR is credited by the left as "getting us out of the great depression." It's become common knowledge despite its falsehood. Nothing could be further than the truth. There were more unemployed at the start of FDR's third term than there was at the beginning of his first term. The unemployment rate actually hit 25%.

The Smoot/Hawley act deepened the depression even further. As stated, what was a normal business cycle turndown, was turned into a major depression of long-standing and major suffering because of government meddling in the private sector where it didn't belong.

Like all wars, including economic ones, the government always comes out more powerful and overreaching than before the war began.

millercarbon ...

Man, you are dead-nutz on with your comments on the money issue. If only the majority of Americans understood the information you posted above, things could really be amazing. 

When I was a kid, I remember magazine ads and Sears catalogs that had all prices posted. That was when prices were extremely stable. You won't see that today unless what you are buying is in the here and now.

This is all audio related as far as prices are concerned. There is a reason that high-end amplifiers are selling for twice the price of my first house, and cables are selling for more than I paid for that brand new 1965 Plymouth hardtop with the 383 ci engine.

Oh, and I don't think I mentioned the brand new VW Bug I bought in 1972 for $1,800. That represented less than two month's pay at the time.  

Frank

@millercarbon,
In all seriousness, are you on a Kool-Aid IV drip that you pull around on rollers?

The Federal Reserve was created in 1913. Prior to that, if you can be bothered to look up the facts, there was essentially zero inflation in the US. Pretty sure you will find the word did not even exist, at least not in the monetary sense. Why would it? You cannot inflate a currency when it is minted from solid metal that can only be created by human effort digging it up, refining, coining.

Once the Fed was created what happened? Immediately we had the Roaring Twenties. For the first time we had inflation. Real inflation. The slogan, "What we need is a good ten cent cigar" came about because people wanted a return to the low stable prices that had been the norm prior to the Fed.

It was the banksters loose money policies that created the Roaring Twenties, and the Feds monetary measures that created the Great Depression. Which by the way was a deflation. Two things, inflation and deflation, the US had never really experienced, in peace time, prior to the Fed.

Paul Krugman won a Nobel Prize in Economics, about which it helps to know a couple things. One, its not a Nobel Prize. The so-called nobel prize in economics was established in 1968 by the Riksbank, the central bank of Sweden.

Get it? The banksters hi-jacked the Nobel imprimatur, paid for their own prize, to promote their own interests. Its a crock.

Which explains Paul Krugman being such a load of you know what. Hard to think of a more disgraced excuse of an economist or one who has gotten more things more wrong more widely published.

Aside from that, all the best!

Actually, if memory and google serves me correctly, the tariffs exacerbated the Great Depression, not caused it. They came about a year after the 1929 stock market crash. It’s a linear thing.

And there is a leading, noted, Nobel Prize winning economist who thinks otherwise:

"But didn’t the Smoot-Hawley tariff cause the Great Depression? No. There’s no evidence at all that it did. Yes, trade fell a lot between 1929 and 1933, but that was almost entirely a consequence of the Depression, not a cause. (Trade actually fell faster during the early stages of the 2008 Great Recession than it did after 1929.) And while trade barriers were higher in the 1930s than before, this was partly a response to the Depression, partly a consequence of deflation, which made specific tariffs (i.e., tariffs that are stated in dollars per unit, not as a percentage of value) loom larger."

--Paul Krugman

All the best,
Nonoise

People are really clever, creative, greedy and stingy. All you have to do is let them trade among themselves and over time you get a lot more really good stuff at lower and lower prices. Exactly what happened over the roughly 100 years of sound money due to the gold standard.

Prices, like I already said, were remarkably stable in the US for 300 years. Its a fact. You could look it up. The track record was not perfectly flat. A few wars created some inflationary spikes when paper money was created to fund the wars. But standard items like a bushel of corn or wheat were virtually the exact same price at the end as at the beginning, 1600 to 1900.

Seriously people. Its a fact. You could look it up. Really. You should.

Then consider how many tariffs, and a lot bigger ones, were enacted back then. So drop the ideas mentioned. They are contradicted by the facts of history.

Tariffs in the current circumstances are wonderful. Not perfect. Nothing ever is. But the downsides are all relatively small and limited and short term while the upsides are all big and widespread and long term. Already we are seeing more investment and hiring. Only gonna get better the longer it goes on.

This same exact thing happened back in Colonial America. Naysayers will have to contend with the reality of how beneficial tariffs were then.

So why do prices rise then? Because instead of money we have debt. Pull a bill out of your wallet, if you even have one, and look at it. Federal Reserve Note, it says. Well, its private, not Federal. There are no reserves. And do you know what a note is? Its a loan. When you buy a house you sign a note. A promise to pay. A mortgage. The literal translation of which is "death pledge."

So, in other words, a Federal Reserve Note is an IOU. Which if you visit any coin store or look on-line its interesting to follow the history of this fake currency as over the years it deteriorates from being coined of actual gold or silver bullion to paper with a literal claim on those metals to a promise to be exchanged to .... nothing. Today it is not even exchangeable for anything. The "dollar" is not a dollar. And the Federal Reserve Note is an IOU

An IOU what? An IOU NOTHING!

There’s the crime at the root of it all.

Just for educational purposes, we should focus on ghasley's comment about tariffs and how they caused the great depression of the 1930's. Here's a link to the Smoot/Hawley act:

https://fee.org/articles/the-smoot-hawley-tariff-and-the-great-depression/

Again, ghasley ... excellent stuff.

Frank

😂😂😂😂😂

@inna 

I apologize if anything I've written has come off as a lecture. That was not my intent. I've just noticed alot of your postings seem angry but many of those posts were deleted by the moderators, maybe at your request. Anyway, my apologies.

Now I will take issue with "dilettante" which is intended to convey that there is no knowledge to back up the statements. In the immortal words of Bob Newhart, "I would never mean to denigrate you, which by the way means to put down".

If you are angry and miserable, its highly likely it didn't happen over night and it may also be likely that you are exactly as you have intended. If that's the case, my apologies for trying to spread a little sunshine. Nothing worse than a happy SOB bouncing in and spoiling the fun.

@nonoise 

I like it...to bring it back to audio, didn't Bob Marley record something about shooting the tariff?

@ghasley
Thanks for the primer. 👍

The next time we hear "There’s a new tariff in town," think, for a minute.

All the best,
Nonoise

It is related to Audio, we are making noises especially gh with his dilettante lecturing. 

@inna 

Why are you angry? When were you last happy? 

Tariffs are a direct result of not understanding economics and free trade. Its really not complex if a country is trying to be a good partner and reasonable.

A few truths:

1) Tariffs are paid by people who still buy stuff even after a tariff has been levied. Think about that for a moment. Don’t like tariffs, don’t buy the stuff. If you are ambivalent, keep buying or don’t keep buying.

2) There has never been a tariff levied among reasonable equals since the beginning of time that hasn’t escalated. Eventually, cooler heads prevail. Sometimes it takes triggering the 1929 stock market crash which, in turn, triggering the great depression to get the attention of the decision makers.

3) In a moral society, the tariffs collected would be paid out those most adversely affected by the necessity that triggered the tariff in the first place. They are hardly free market, free enterprise or intelligent.

4) What happened with the recent steel tariffs? USA steel companies raised their prices to parity...to match the price of Chinese steel plus the new tariffs. Outside of our borders, do you believe the USA steel companies are holding the line on those prices or do you believe they are competing internationally by pricing their product fairly? So, USA steel is sold into the international market for less than you can buy it here.

5) In point 4, the shortsighted pricing action taken actually renders the tariff completely ineffective. If both steel beams are priced similarly, then its about specs, quantity, price locks and deliverability. Had the USA steel providers left their prices alone, not one ounce of Chinese steel would be purchased.

Once again, we should all suck it up and pull together. @inna your posts just seethe anger, maybe I’m reading too much into it but anyway....

Read intelligent writings that DIFFER from what you presently believe. If you only read the blog of someone touting alt currencies from Panama or if you only read your Costa Rican off the grid live off the land guru you are missing some stuff. If you are far right, read some reasonable writings from the other side. Its not important if you agree but it is important that you understand. We shouldn’t be so self assured, we should be objective. For every Tienimen, there is Wounded Knee or Kent State or Homestead. They are all equally bad but sitting around wringing your hands and griping isn’t going to solve anything. 

If someone voted for those in office, then the tariffs are their cross to bear. Learn from it and vote differently. In between, nobody gives a darn how angry and disenfranchised you may feel. Fix it, get happy and realize that you can choose to make a difference today or you can choose not to....but make no mistake, its a choice you are making!

Well, there goes the neighborhood. 😄

But, in keeping within the parameters of the topic, the price of audio from China as it relates to tariffs, I can't wait for some sanity to somehow creep back into the minds of those who understand American tariff laws and how they are legally enacted, as a countervailing force to the imbecilic and illegal way it's been recently done.

All of this is a made up crisis, our economy be damned. 

All the best,
Nonoise

Can we try to keep the topic related to  Audio again? Please. 

^^^

Hey! You callin’ me a homo sapien? I don’t swing that way. *lol*

Let’s not delete this thread.

On audio equipment made in China ... Yes, the prices will increase. Tariffs are basically a VAT tax on the end consumer. Let’s hope for an even-steven trade policy where citizens of both countries benefit. I’m sure the citizens of China would like to be driving Chevrolets and Ford’s made with American steel.

Frank

Frank, they will delete this thread if we go into the details of power distribution and political structures. What you quoted regarding power was already known to African Homo Sapience hundreds of thousands years ago.

Well, the topic at hand is our tariff policies with China. It has, however, morphed into a conversation about the general overall corruption in our government. Corruption exists on both sides of the aisle. Is there anyone here who would disagree with that?

In reading the posts here, I think we are all pretty much on the same page. How we see the solution is the problem. I take more of a liberal stance ... in the Jeffersonian sense, that is.

It has been said: ... "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely." With that in mind, why would any liberty devotee want to increase the power of the central government and take power away from the states in order to do so?

Frank

PS: ghasley ... Once again, I appreciate your well thought out posts. Excellent, thank you.

They are not our leaders, they manage corporation America the way they see fit, and they almost own it.
I heard educated rumors that Facebook has a very tight link to CIA/NSA.   

@oregonpapa 
I agree with your latest post on China but they are norm, and in comparison to North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and even Russia, they look less and less onerous. Yet, our leaders make deals with them and personally profit from it and when the cameras are on, they denounce them when it suits them.

Nothing bad will be said about Russia since a certain someone still wants to build his hotel there after he leaves office.  That same certain someone went around Congress and gave high tech nuclear info to the very country that flew two airliners into the World Trade Center just 16 days after they butchered a journalist with American legal residency. 

Take your pick. It's like floating down a river of shite and picking out one turd and saying, "this one really pisses me off."

All the best,
Nonoise

As Haredim might say we are all miracle of Creation. They are probably right.

Ozzy ... There’s just something about you that pisses them off. *lol* (jk)

gasley ... The problem with communicating as we do over the Internet is that we cannot see facial expressions, hand gestures or body language. As a result, sometimes our comments are taken in a negative way, when we were intending to be friendly, or at least passive. There was nothing in nonoise’s post that I took as offensive. Nor did I intend to offend.

nonoise ...

There are no "half-truths" in the fact that Tibetans have been ground into the ground by China. There are no half-truths about the fact that China has locked up between one and two million Muslims in internment camps. There are no half-truths that thousands of Chinese citizens were ground to death under tank tracks and shot to death in Tiananmen Square for the "crime" of peaceful protesting. Same with stealing our patents, hacking our computer systems, manipulating their currency and dumping their products.

inna ... Yes, it is obvious why prices are going up. When money is "printed" into existence and distributed throughout society, it dilutes the worth of money already in the system. This causes more money to chase fewer goods and prices to go up. The politicians blame the consumer, as the Gerald Ford administration did. I wonder if any of you guys remember Gerald Ford’s "WIN" buttons. "WIN" stood for "Whip Inflation Now." The thrust was to get consumers to stop consuming so much. *lol* Those among us who were more astute kept saying ... "consume less, hell ... stop printing money!"

But then, what do I know. I don’t even have an AA degree like nonoise does. Heck, I barely made it out of high school. My Mom considered it to be a miracle. :-)

Frank

PS: Even Adam Smith promoted a "safety net" for those less fortunate amongst us.

PPS: I second gasley’s suggestion ... READ.

I, however, do understand why my post about Chinese Square was deleted.
I have always ignored Facebook/Twitter and intend to keep it that way.

I don't understand. 
My post got deleted and all I said was that I have no audio equipment from China or Mexico.
Watch this will be deleted again.
Is Audiogon becoming like Facebook/ Twitter?

ozzy

Isn't it obvious why the prices are high and getting higher, Chinese tariffs or not ? Tariffs on European products are in the making too, as I understand. Besides steel. Corruption is the norm, lack of it should be punished and it is punished. 

@oregonpapa

I don’t believe @nonoise intended any slight toward you, maybe the person in the video (which I have yet to see if it is referenced in the link to Breitbart) but not you.

I again pose a familiar question, why is everyone so angry? Is there considerable surprise that our fellow citizens of the world are capable of dishonesty? Surely not. Politicians? Surely not. TV repairmen? Lawn services? Surely not.

If we would all commit to vote our conscience, not our self interests but our conscience, then our elected officials may begin to resemble ladies and gentlemen of character. I won’t comment on a particular politician or party, things like that can be a slippery slope. I am concerned that future elections will be decided by those casting votes who get their news and information from a single source. People, please read alot and from a broad variety of opinions. Think about what you have read and use your own intelligence to make up your own mind. You shouldn’t want Steve Bannon or Steve Jobs charting your path any more than you should want Jeff Bezos or Jeff Beck.

Donald Trump almost won the popular vote and without diving into politics at all, just observations, I was kind of surprised that America elected a president who went broke in the casino business. Do you realize how hard it is to lose when the odds are stacked in your favor? Term limits would be nice. People with good intentions on both sides of the aisle get elected and immediately they are in grave danger of experiencing a gradual but steady erosion of their character.

The main point of this post though is, if you believe you are a good person, then go do some good. Help 1 person today, help feed the hungry, mentor a child or someone less fortunate, go volunteer at a soup kitchen. Maybe it will catch on. People of character having a great day helping others become impervious to the negative schlock and bitterness that pervades. The more we give, the more value will be placed on giving and maybe, just maybe, people will begin to care less about what they are getting or entitled to.

It's not so much lies as half truths. We all spy on each other. We're no angels in that regard. Some cry for free markets but there's no such thing, and there will never be.

Some cry out for capitalism to rule the day yet forget that Adam Smith based his economic model with the proviso that it's all done to protect domestic markets, but go to any Chamber of Commerce office with a business plan and they'll instruct you on how to go to Asia to have it made and American taxpayers will foot the bill for your move.

You can't demand allegiance to a country and then abandon it when it suits markets. Yet, that is what our business leaders do, on a regular basis. 30% of the shareholders in American corporations are foreigners. About the same amount got that big tax break that benefited the already filthy rich. Look online and see how much land in America is foreign owned, which unless we nationalize it (how commie like) we'll never get it back.

All the best,
Nonoise

^^^

Yes! Shoot the messenger. That way, you will never have to see the message.

nonoise ... What are the lies of which you speak? I didn’t hear any lies coming from the person in the video. Also, the corruption you alluded to is exactly what we need to get rid of. It is in both parties, the media and academia as well. Do some research on California’s UC system for starters. You’ll be shocked. From there, move on to the Los Angeles Unified School District for more shocking details.

Frank