SUT help

This is very simple, besides the fact that you don't need a SUT.  You can use any SUT with a 1:10 step up ratio.  That means the signal voltage will be increased 10-fold, to 4mV with either of the two cartridges in question. That is easily enough signal voltage to drive the MM section of your Modwright, set to even 40db of gain.  If that seems a tad lean, you can use the 46db setting, but the 52 db setting is definitely overkill.  (The phono gain needed is somewhat dependent upon the gain added by your linestage, if you use an active linestage, the input sensitivity of the amplifier, and the efficiency of the speakers.) The load seen by the cartridge is the input resistor of the MM phono stage divided by the square of the turns ratio.  If the Modwright has a  typical 47K resistor at its MM inputs, then the cartridge sees 470 ohms (47,000 divided by100).  That is absolutely fine for either cartridge.  This is all you need to know.

SUT's that are a match to a Cart' are not all equal in their ability to impact on the end Sonic.

On previous occasion within this forum, I have made it known different Brands / Models / Transformer Types used for DIY Builds are able to create the perception of a Rich Tone.

The scale of Rich Tone can be perceived from a Hint of Rich, through to a very loose overbearing Lower Frequency Bloom.

From experience of use I am Wed to SUT's that I perceive as being almost lean, a Very small hint of Rich end of the scale.

A Head Amp is able to be perceived as being Lean and I do like these in use as an alternative presentation.

As Rich Tone can easily become a detractor and unwanted, have you an idea of how much of a Rich Tone you would like to be exposed to during your listening periods ? 

@lewm Thank you for that - nice and simple! Makes total sense. The only reason I've wanted to try one out is to see if it will improve soundstage width/depth. I love the Modwright stage and the MC input is very nice, but I've never tried a SUT, so curiosity is getting the better of me!

@pindac From what I gather, you're referring to a warm vs neutral vs bright/analytical? I usually prefer close to neutral. Musical without being too warm and muddy, but also without being TOO bright and analytical to where it can cause listening fatigue.

Considering my setup is almost all tube, with SET amplification, I need to stay away from adding much coloration earlier in the chain.

Oh - two others that have been mentioned to me in the past:

1. Sound Tradition Live MC-10 (but I don't believe these are still being made?)
2. Sculpture A mini nano

I have a Modwright with the XT upgrades and use a Hashimoto HM-7.

I haven't checked it against the MC side since I did the upgrades but before it seemed to expand the soundstage some.  I think you mostly use a SUT to bypass an active gain stage.

The Lundahls in the Modwright are on the inexpensive side and Dan told me he chose them mainly for low gain since the PH9.0 already has tons of it.

Honestly I run the Hashimoto (1:15, PH9 at -6) mainly because I've always used them, back to my Darlington Labs days.  I'm betting there are tons of happy non SUT Ph9.0XT users out there!   I think if there's any difference it's small and nuanced would depend on the rest of your system and the cart.

I do like the extra gain sometimes as I do have some low, low MC carts. I don't run a pre and go  straight into my amp (2A3 set).

If there is any improvement, again I think it would be small and it depends on you whether or not it's worth it.

@theflattire I think the Sound Tradition Live MC-10 uses HM-7s, but not totally sure. I can't find any info on it as far as if they are still made. The only pre-made SUTs I can find with HM-7 are Swissonor and they're something like $3300, which is a bit crazy. I do not have the equipment or skills (or confidence to not screw up) trying to make one myself.

I'm not expecting any earth-shattering improvements (mostly everything I'm doing with my system involves small tweaks) but if I end up with a notch up in performance for around $1000-1500, that's fairly cost-effective versus many other upgrades and tweaks!

@mmcgill829 

I got my Hashimotos on eBay from a Japanese seller.  I believe I paid around $1300.  He lists it for more but make an offer and he will discount it.  Made to order so it takes about a month.

I"ll try and do a A/B with/without tonight and let you know.

There are a lot of other SUTs I would consider.  I would try and stay around 1:10-1:15 because of the gain in the Modwright.  Maybe Ned Clayton (ebay) Cinemag 1254s.  I had those for a while and they were fine.  Half the cost of the Hashimoto.  I would have to consider what is better than the Lundahls?

@theflattire home&scitek on ebay? Interesting. Looks like they just use a kit basically.

You also should look at Bob's Devices.  His are excellent and I believe he might offer a return privilege.  10:1 would be a good ratio for what you want.  IMHO, any phono stage is improved when an SUT is inserted.  I just like the way they sound. My current favorite and newest phono stage is the current top offering from Conrad Johnson, the ART Phono.   At $28K it sounds marvelous either way, but I gravitate to using an SUT with it most of the time.  A Good SUT or two is handy to have.  You will not regret the acquisition.

Here's the interior of mine.  

He uses the same chassis for all the Hashimoto transformers.

You can look at the HM-X also.  Same gain but a little less cost.

Someone else ordered from this person without the switching so it can be custom wired.

Bobs is good too. Proprietary Cinemags.

Heard good things about Finemet also.

Either “handy” or superfluous.

@theflattire Thanks for sharing. Pretty simple and clean inside.

@billstevenson Bob's is definitely an option too. Looks like full refunds accepted minus 10% restock fee for 2 weeks. Could be wise to start there since if I can't really discern any real difference or improvements I can just return it. Slightly poorer, but richer in experience.

The custom ones (like the HM-7 one) would definitely be going out on a limb.

There's a Bob's Sky10 on USAM right now.

1:10 is probably all you need.

I gotta say, I listened first through the MC side and then through the Hashimotos and I don't hear much difference.  Of course there is the gain.

Not listening for anything in particular, just seeing if anything sticks out.  Both ways throw sound out pretty far to the sides and my speakers are kinda close together.

I think at this level you are pretty maxed out.

I would probably spend the money on a cart before a SUT (of course I already got one).

I just got a used a Koetsu Black and it's a wow.  Get the Umami!

@theflattire interesting!

I'm definitely considering the Umami (though I also thought about the Etsuro Cobalt) but I struggle spending $4k (or $6k) on a cart that will have to be replaced every couple years due to wear. The trade in is a 30% discount toward a new one, but still. That's a pretty high recurring cost. Whereas something like a SUT if it offered any improvement lasts pretty much forever. That was my logic, at least. haha.

Side note, it's a bummer that Koetsu is no more. Good thing you got one while you still can!

In my opinion, if you are dissatisfied with the SUTs that are built into the Modwright, you ought to talk to Modwright about having them install a better pair of SUTs. You would have pretty much the same array of choices, you probably will save money because you don't have to pay for the box that houses the SUTs, you probably gain some advantage over any external SUTs in that you avoid another set of RCA connectors and wires with capacitance in the signal path, It's a win, win, win proposition.  After all, Modwright made their bones by modifying gear built by other companies; surely they can do the same for their own gear.

@lewm That's a very good point!

@mmcgill829 As Stated, I have experienced many SUT's, a large selection of these on the home system, that are with retail Values of Approx' £300 - £2K and maybe even more expensive if listened to in other systems.

These SUT's are designs no longer produced, through to available designs.

Additionally, I have experiences SUT's that are produced using Tranx's referred to above and others, that have been utilised as a DIY Build.

As a result of Phonostage Bake Off's attended, I have experienced many Phon's used with a In Built MC Stage and a MM Stage with a SUT.

From a large range of experiences, I have not experienced too many SUT's I have thoroughly enjoyed and could live with.

Also when a SUT has been of real Interest, it is because it has produced something in the end sonic, that is much more wanted to be maintained than the MC Input can achieve.

As an individual with an all Valve System and a main Phon' being Valve Input / Valve Output design, along with Phon No 2 being a Valve Hybrid, I have selected SUT's that are in your description in the range of being Neutral. ( Richness being detected is a unique preference, it causes endless debate or blatant rejection, I've seen this regular in Group Assessments. One's own Get of the Bus point for a Tone is another's that is classed as best avoided).

The idea of having the Tranx's placed within the Phon' is an OK idea, but will be limiting to your experiencing SUT's or Head Amp's if they become a device of interest. 

The Sculpture A has been referred to above, I have been demo'd these in both Copper and Silver Coil Tranx's and have been so impressed, these are on my must try in the home system short list, not much gets on to that list today.

A thread about SUT's and produced by a Forum member who's posts are looked forward to by myself is attached.

Your MC stage of your Phono Stage IS A SUT.

ALL MC low signal in/MM strength out are SUTs.

Your Phono has a terrific set of optional Loading:

ModWright PH 9.0

MC Loading: 10-20-50-100-250-470

And, independent and adjustable gain is the holy grail IMO.

.............................

IOW, you already have an EXCELLENT SUT

and, SUTs are not supposed to have a sound, exactly the opposite, just step it up without changing the sound of the cartridge or the sound of the MM Phono Stage.

....................................

Additional Cartridges: the sound of any cartridge you have/get needs to get thru a SUT without alteration. I’d put money on the fact that your ModWright does just that.

Aside from researching/considering any cartridge's sound characteristics, which are ’preferred, not better’, I always encourage looking for technical specs: wide channel separation, and tight channel balance, the combo yields terrific imaging of the ’preferred’ cartridge sound.

@elliottbnewcombjr Your Statement:  

"SUTs are not supposed to have a sound, exactly the opposite,"

"Your MC stage of your Phono Stage IS A SUT."

Are these statements based as the outcome of personally experiencing a Broad Range of Phonostages in use, where MC Inputs, or as you describe ( On Board SUT's ) are assessed for how the end sound produced by the system overall, impacts on your own unique preferences for produced sound ?

Similarly, the SUT / Head Amp Off Board and connected to the MM Input. Are your comments made as the outcome of having personally experienced Broad Range of these configurations. Which have been assessed for how the end sound being produced by the system overall, impacts on your own unique preferences for produced sound ? 

My experiences of MC Inputs and Off Board SUT's used with the MM Input, leaves myself with the perception that a Richness of Tone will be added when a SUT is used with the MM Input. 

I do not class this as a unwanted perception, I am encouraging those interested to be aware there will be a perception of some type detected, and it their unique tolerance of the perceived presence, that will be influential in making a added device become an attractor or to be repelled.

One SUT experience is not a broad experience of SUT's and the influence a SUT can have is not likely to be realised from limited exposure to the devices.

I though my own Journey was concluded with SUT's, Head Amp's were of Interest, then along come Sculpture A, and SUT's are of real interest once more.  

Another Link from a broad range of experienced forum members making the case for Off Board SUT > MM Input a option in discussions on Phon's that will cost the price of a nearly new used vehicle.

SUTs are like seasoning on food.  They definitely change the sound, it is silly to think they don't.  Silver wire sounds different than copper, the core material matters, how they are wound etc. also matters.  They are not everyone's cuppa.  No matter.  Everyone should make up their own mind based on their own experience. They work better with some phono stages than others, some cartridges than others.  They are just another tool in the box.  No more, no less.  Best to keep an open mind.

@billstevenson is 200% correct, but use bad A fantastic low capacitance cables and keep connectors very clean… which is also why the OP should contact the MOD at Modwr@lewm good idea.

As to a cartridge as a consumable…. yep, no kidding as are all your tubes…. just part of the journey……

I really hope my surviving kin don’t engrave “ here lies a frugal phono cartridge spendthrift “…. on my tombstone…..

I don’t know a TON about SUTs, but I’d like to experiment to see if adding one will enhance my experience.

I almost know NOTHING about SUTs, but all I know that either higher output cartridge or higher gain phonostage will outperform combination with SUT.

All you have to remember is the rule of number of components in the signal path. With SUT it's more components than without. Simple math there no science needed. 

@czarivey Thank You for your input, it does seem the Math is your Governor and the effect of the Sound produced on the individual is to be disregarded.

Such a stance sounds very very 80's when the upcoming of todays Super Brands were taking the Old Guard On, when the mantra was the Customers did not know how to listen, these are the very best products and customers are failing to appreciate them, as they don't know how to listen.

All was marketing spiel, one likes what they like. 

My response to those who believe in the Math only is one of my favourites.

You are welcome to disregard it, you seem pretty adept at that one,

 "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

Some of the very best EE Designer / Builders do the math religiously and get the Oscilloscope to present a beautiful wave. Then the same EE will spend a very long period Voicing the Design, as the Math does only so much.

For the user of a SUT, it is a means to use a LOMC Cartridge and for those in the know, is also a means to Voicing a Cart'>Phon.    

@billstevenson Agree. I don't want this to turn into a debate on whether one is necessary or sounds different or not, since I'm a pretty firm believer in having to use my own ears to determine that. Even in my own system, what is perceptable to me might not be for others (and visa versa!). I merely want to explore what they have to offer, if anything, beyond the built-in SUT in my MW.

This also brings me to consider, even if I reach out to MW about having something different installed, I have absolutely no clue or reference point on whether anything else would sound different, so it could turn into an expensive back and forth endeavor. It might be better to first experiment with different outboard SET options and if there is one that I like more than the build-in, then I could discuss with MW to see if there is an option to replace.

I may not even perceive any difference on trying one, but mostly just wanted some guidance on how to go about matching with my components and some recommended options to try out.

@tomic601 Sure, but tubes last significantly longer and are significantly cheaper (unless you've got a PSET 300B or something). Cartridges last about 1-2 years max with me as I play quite a bit of records, so the recurring cost there is much more frequent and a lot more expensive. That's all.

@czarivey Sure, and I could probably get a bigger improvement by replacing all of my gear entirely with different, more expensive things, but that's not really the point of this thread. 😂 I'm just curious about SUT options is all, and like Bill touched on in his comment - add 'another tool to the toolbox.' If I try a few and can perceive absolutely no difference, then that'll be the end of that.

;-) Then i would recommend an Entre w Tamura transformers… $400-550 ish… u can flip it for about same…

I have personally tried lots of combinations with the Hana ML and Hana Umami Blue and Red.  1:20 is perfect if you set your phono to 40dB and 47k ohms.  If you have a Hana SL, then 1:10 is the best match.

pindac

nope, nope, nope ...... nope.

Passive, Straight Wire With Gain, ZERO noise: that’s what my Fidelity FRT-4 SUT is.

MM Passed Thru it to my mx110z or MM straight to my mx110z’s MM Phono sound the same. I love the sound of my mx110z’s MM Phono RIAA and would not want it’s sound altered by anything, just a different cartridge to evaluate, hear the cartridge’s differences: ’preferred, not better’.

Disliked my McIntosh C28's Phono, Liked my Fisher 500C and 800C. Liked my Tandberg TR80; Like my Yamaha Receiver's MM Phono. RIAA differences. 

My different MM Cartridges, their differences similarly heard passed thru SUT or direct to mx110z’s MM Phono as above.

MC, the story is the same when listening to mine or friends (who are familiar with my system’s sound), theirs’s sound ’essentially’ like they are used to, the sound they preferred, not any noticeable alteration. Wrong Impedance/xFactor setting, we hear it right away, primarily female vocals changing.

My office Luxman SQ-N150 has built-in MC and MM. Sounds darn nice! I have two MM I play on my TT here, I hear what I am used to hearing downstairs.

I had tried a few Phono Stages, internal riaa, into Line, didn’t like anything except a $14. Pyle.

Cambridge Duo, sent it back, two others highly recommended, sent them back.

It’s the RIAA that sound different, not the transformers in my experience.

Tell me I’m/we are deaf, we can hear differences between cartridges, but me: not ...... fuses.

Phono Stages, with their own SUT within, AND their own RIAA Phono Stage Within, now you’ve got to get your ears polished.

Elliot, So, to boil down what you wrote, your FR SUT used with an LOMC cartridge, has no effect on the overall SQ of your MX110 used straight in with an MM cartridge, even taking into account that the two cartridges themselves are different from one another in SQ, like tonal balance, bass accuracy, etc.  Would that be a fair summary of what you wrote above?  Because I am on your side; a SUT, like any other component of an audio system, ought to be as neutral as possible (even though nothing is neutral except subjectively).

@bobsdevices the man himself! Thank's for your insight.

@czarivey Sure, and I could probably get a bigger improvement by replacing all of my gear entirely with different, more expensive things, but that's not really the point of this thread. 😂 I'm just curious about SUT options is all, and like Bill touched on in his comment - add 'another tool to the toolbox.' If I try a few and can perceive absolutely no difference, then that'll be the end of that.

There are in fact pre-phono preamps that do job of SUT a lot better and even worth a lot cheaper. dint ya kno that???

interesting theory…. this straight wire transformer…… i shall notify all those transformer engineers they have been doing it wrong all these many years…. except for @atmasphere …who for some crazy reason has worked very hard building amplifiers that….. ahem…. eliminate these perfectly transparent components…..

If you think this hysterical…. just alter the spelling…. slighlty….

lewm

not quite, I can compare MM with or without the SUT, I can only hear LOMC via the SUT.

""My different MM Cartridges, their differences similarly heard passed thru SUT or direct to mx110z’s MM Phono as above.

MC, the story is the same when listening to mine or friends (who are familiar with my system’s sound), theirs’s sound ’essentially’ like they are used to, the sound they preferred, not any noticeable alteration."

....................................

LOMC, I don’t know what my LOMC AT33PTG/II sounds like except the combo of FR SUT and McIntosh mx110z Phono RIAA EQ. Same for my AT33PTG/II LOMC Mono cartridge. My confidence that the SUT is not altering the Cartridge’s sound is from playing several of my friend’s LOMC cartridges here.

theirs’s sound ’essentially’ like they are used to the sound they preferred, not any noticeable alteration."

...............................

Get thee a tonearm with removable headshell, get thee some friends, get thee a true Mono Cartridge, get thee two tonearms, alternate ready to go!

I noticed, the ModWright has a rear switch: Stereo or Mono, which I suppose is like a Stereo/Mono switch on a preamp with that feature. It’s a feature loaded Phono Stage, I’d like to hear it here!!!!!!!!

Just as the OP said, SUT discussions are like drunken sailors, but remember, they get where they are going, usually.

@elliottbnewcombjr @lewm @mmcgill829 Here is something you all might want to consider. Audio transformers of all types make distortion. If they are not loaded properly they will make more distortion but you can never make them distortion-free no matter how well they are matched to the system in which they are used.

This is because of something called the 'hysterisis curve'. With a simple sine wave the distortion can be fairly low, but since the curve runs through all 4 quadrants, when the signal is more complex the distortion will be far more complex as well, meaning you get more than just a simple 2nd harmonic!

Its unavoidable if you use a transformer.

Put another way, if you don't want to color the sound, if you want to hear the music with the least amount of distortion, avoiding a transformer at the input to the audio chain is probably a good idea (if you have enough gain otherwise); there is no way to reduce that distortion downstream as it compounds from stage to stage.

You can debate the 'sound' of the transformers all you want but that 'sound' you hear is in fact the distortion of that transformer. If you like the sound of a certain transformer that's fine; its good to know that distortion is why and that it may not be so benign as signal level increases. Distortion obscures detail in addition to modifying the harmonic structure of musical instruments. So if you want the most out of your analog investment dollars, this is something to consider.

Thx Ralph… hence my play on words….

Ralph, You should know by now that in my case you are preaching to the converted. I do not now own a SUT. Nor have I ever owned one. Furthermore, except for one amplifier I built myself from scratch for the fun of it and because I came into a pair of fine vintage output transformers, I have never used a transformer coupled tube amplifier. But all that is part of a personal belief system that I keep to myself (except for now), and I would not foist it on anyone else who likes to use a SUT.

I also now have two very fine phonolinepreamps (to use Raul's parlance), one basically tube and one all SS, both of which have sufficient active gain for any MC on the planet, which is to say the Ortofon MC2000 at 0.05mV output can be accommodated by both with no intercurrent audible noise.

lewm

how is the .05mv increased to MM signal strength?

Active Gain, signal not stepped up?

Using low impedance MC carts, I would highly recommend looking into a Sutherland Engineering SUTZ. Which is a step up transimpedance unit made to replace the internal solutions of your favorite phono preamps. Just put this between the cartridge and MM input, exactly like you would incorporate a step up transformer. I have improved a number of tube phono preamps, to include Allnic H-7000 (with silver step ups), Manley Steelhead, and most recently an Allnic H10000. A truly incredible device with a 2 fold benefit. Add transimpedance to the system and improve transparency over any step up transformer I have tried to date.

Seems I poked the beehive with this topic 😅.

I appreciate all the varying perspectives here. Has given me things to consider.

Elliot, The phono stages in both of my phonolinepreamps have sufficient gain to handle any LOMC cartridge. I am going to generalize and say they both produce a total gain (including linestage gain) of more than 75db, probably more like 80db. They are both fully balanced designs. (One is my modified Atma-sphere MP1; the other is Raul’s 3160 Phonolinepreamp which can be configured for either of two levels of MC gain.) No MM stage is involved. 80db applied to the MC2000 output is enough gain to drive my Atma-sphere amplifiers with room to spare, and the amplifiers drive Sound Lab 845PX speakers which I have modified to make much more efficient than stock. To the OP: I have no beef with SUTs. I have heard SUTs do a fantastic job paired with an excellent MM stage. I just chose not to go that route. I can’t even give you a good reason why, except maybe I am a cheapskate.

I've experimented with "transimpedance" stages, and I prefer the above two preamplifiers to what I have heard in my system.  Let's call them "current driven", not transimpedance, because the latter term implies that impedances make no difference. They do, or it does make a difference.

@lewm Yes, I was just pointing to a reason why SUTs tend to be less spacious, detailed and involving even when properly loaded as compared to when you are able to run direct-in.

I am not seeking a route away from a SUT. 

My assessments to date have kept me close to them as a device to be used with a LOMC.

Most recently the very analytical assessing has been carried out on same support > same Plinth > same TT >same TA+Heads he'll, with same and similar Cart's from the same Brand.

Experiences are had with SS, Valve Hybrid, Valve Input/Valve Output, SUT's, or Head Amp. 

One  SS MC Input/ MM Input Phon used, is one I am seriously considering owning. I Struggle to see where there is wrong, as I can contentedly  listen to a MC Input without any concern, on the Phon's used, The end sound is fine and living with it for an extended period, is a welcome experience. 

Put a particular design for an SUT or Head Amp into the 0 and I find it hard to wish for anything different. 

I have from an audible experience no issue with the recent description a distortion is introduced, of which to a certain individual is an attraction. 

From an audible experience based on my ability to detect information extracted from the Groove, the options I have around me to use as  Phonostages are all seemingly with a Parity for being Spacious and Detailed.

I would say the SUT has the edge on creating the perception of being Involving and wanted to be maintained in use. 

My Perceptions of how an analytical period of listening impacts om me as an individual with unique preferences for an end sound. 

Pindac, I have no doubt that what you say is a true summation of your personal experience. I can only suggest that maybe you haven’t sampled some of the very best high gain phono stages. This is not to say that I would argue the superiority of any single approach to amplifying LOMC cartridges. Also, I might point out that a “head amp” either voltage driven or current driven is naught but an outboard gain stage that mimics the gain characteristics of a good high gain MC stage, which puts everything in one circuit without the necessity for a separate chassis and an added pair of ICs.

To the OP..no worries…. beehive is where the honey is.

Somebody said pick the distortions you like… i add nothing ( so far )  is free ….

I have in one system a highly modified vintage tube amp w what i consider to be some of the best output transformers ever made….so i’m not as pure as the driven snow….

Have fun…i looked at your system photos…lovey curated gestalt….

@tomic601 That is quite true!

I am not of the camp that aspires to absolute purity above all else. Somewhere in the middle is where I like to land, so I’m not quite as concerned about being ’distortion free.’ I mean, most of my gear is tube gear in some capacity...

All that being said, I don’t think there is a right or wrong approach here. Just depends on what sounds good to our ears in our own systems.

I do appreciate hearing lots of different perspectives, however, and it’s given me plenty of things to consider in addition to the answer to my actual original question.

EDIT: also, thank you very much for the compliment!

@lewm I don't think I have heard the very best of anything the commercial world can put out as an Audio Device, especially Phonostage. Who has in this thread? 

In my limitation to nearly all Audio Experiences being UK Bound, I do think I have experienced in known systems, a very good Commercial Offering in Phon's upto £15K.

At Events I have heard commercial offered Phon's that far exceed the £15K.

I have been very familiar with Commission Built Phon's upto £8K where bespoke parts are produced for the design. 

I have heard DIY Built Phon's  where the BOM is close to  £2.5K

I am very familiar with an extensive range of Phon's and shortlisted only a few, and also had one commission built to meet my own needs.

Help me out please, when the Phon' of Phon's does become available for my experiencing. How do I capitalise on this opportunity.

Must the TA be the £60K Sat. 

Must the LOMC be over £20K

Must the TT be north of £80Kish

Must the Interconnects be £20K+

What must the Downstream equate to £250Kish.

Would I be wrong to try out a SUT or Head when such a Audio Set Up is assembled. 

I don't want the 'so called' best, I'm happy with the cut of ribs or offal. 

But what I really want, is simply something that makes the idea of it sticking around attractive. I have got this in many owned items to be used for Audio and Music Replay purposes. 

It is important the OP knows this and those looking in without comment made. 

The jensen isomax sut is a nice one. The 1/10 version will work well with the hana's. I use it with both my hana el and denon dl103. Tavish design uses Jensen transformers in their adagio.

Pindac, what a pile of rubbish!