SUT help

SUT's that are a match to a Cart' are not all equal in their ability to impact on the end Sonic.

On previous occasion within this forum, I have made it known different Brands / Models / Transformer Types used for DIY Builds are able to create the perception of a Rich Tone.

The scale of Rich Tone can be perceived from a Hint of Rich, through to a very loose overbearing Lower Frequency Bloom.

From experience of use I am Wed to SUT's that I perceive as being almost lean, a Very small hint of Rich end of the scale.

A Head Amp is able to be perceived as being Lean and I do like these in use as an alternative presentation.

As Rich Tone can easily become a detractor and unwanted, have you an idea of how much of a Rich Tone you would like to be exposed to during your listening periods ? 

@mmcgill829 As Stated, I have experienced many SUT's, a large selection of these on the home system, that are with retail Values of Approx' £300 - £2K and maybe even more expensive if listened to in other systems.

These SUT's are designs no longer produced, through to available designs.

Additionally, I have experiences SUT's that are produced using Tranx's referred to above and others, that have been utilised as a DIY Build.

As a result of Phonostage Bake Off's attended, I have experienced many Phon's used with a In Built MC Stage and a MM Stage with a SUT.

From a large range of experiences, I have not experienced too many SUT's I have thoroughly enjoyed and could live with.

Also when a SUT has been of real Interest, it is because it has produced something in the end sonic, that is much more wanted to be maintained than the MC Input can achieve.

As an individual with an all Valve System and a main Phon' being Valve Input / Valve Output design, along with Phon No 2 being a Valve Hybrid, I have selected SUT's that are in your description in the range of being Neutral. ( Richness being detected is a unique preference, it causes endless debate or blatant rejection, I've seen this regular in Group Assessments. One's own Get of the Bus point for a Tone is another's that is classed as best avoided).

The idea of having the Tranx's placed within the Phon' is an OK idea, but will be limiting to your experiencing SUT's or Head Amp's if they become a device of interest. 

The Sculpture A has been referred to above, I have been demo'd these in both Copper and Silver Coil Tranx's and have been so impressed, these are on my must try in the home system short list, not much gets on to that list today.

A thread about SUT's and produced by a Forum member who's posts are looked forward to by myself is attached.

  

 

@elliottbnewcombjr Your Statement:  

"SUTs are not supposed to have a sound, exactly the opposite,"

"Your MC stage of your Phono Stage IS A SUT."

Are these statements based as the outcome of personally experiencing a Broad Range of Phonostages in use, where MC Inputs, or as you describe ( On Board SUT's ) are assessed for how the end sound produced by the system overall, impacts on your own unique preferences for produced sound ?

Similarly, the SUT / Head Amp Off Board and connected to the MM Input. Are your comments made as the outcome of having personally experienced Broad Range of these configurations. Which have been assessed for how the end sound being produced by the system overall, impacts on your own unique preferences for produced sound ? 

My experiences of MC Inputs and Off Board SUT's used with the MM Input, leaves myself with the perception that a Richness of Tone will be added when a SUT is used with the MM Input. 

I do not class this as a unwanted perception, I am encouraging those interested to be aware there will be a perception of some type detected, and it their unique tolerance of the perceived presence, that will be influential in making a added device become an attractor or to be repelled.

One SUT experience is not a broad experience of SUT's and the influence a SUT can have is not likely to be realised from limited exposure to the devices.

I though my own Journey was concluded with SUT's, Head Amp's were of Interest, then along come Sculpture A, and SUT's are of real interest once more.  

 

Another Link from a broad range of experienced forum members making the case for Off Board SUT > MM Input a option in discussions on Phon's that will cost the price of a nearly new used vehicle.

 

 

@czarivey Thank You for your input, it does seem the Math is your Governor and the effect of the Sound produced on the individual is to be disregarded.

Such a stance sounds very very 80's when the upcoming of todays Super Brands were taking the Old Guard On, when the mantra was the Customers did not know how to listen, these are the very best products and customers are failing to appreciate them, as they don't know how to listen.

All was marketing spiel, one likes what they like. 

My response to those who believe in the Math only is one of my favourites.

You are welcome to disregard it, you seem pretty adept at that one,

 "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

Some of the very best EE Designer / Builders do the math religiously and get the Oscilloscope to present a beautiful wave. Then the same EE will spend a very long period Voicing the Design, as the Math does only so much.

For the user of a SUT, it is a means to use a LOMC Cartridge and for those in the know, is also a means to Voicing a Cart'>Phon.    

I am not seeking a route away from a SUT. 

My assessments to date have kept me close to them as a device to be used with a LOMC.

Most recently the very analytical assessing has been carried out on same support > same Plinth > same TT >same TA+Heads he'll, with same and similar Cart's from the same Brand.

Experiences are had with SS, Valve Hybrid, Valve Input/Valve Output, SUT's, or Head Amp. 

One  SS MC Input/ MM Input Phon used, is one I am seriously considering owning. I Struggle to see where there is wrong, as I can contentedly  listen to a MC Input without any concern, on the Phon's used, The end sound is fine and living with it for an extended period, is a welcome experience. 

Put a particular design for an SUT or Head Amp into the 0 and I find it hard to wish for anything different. 

I have from an audible experience no issue with the recent description a distortion is introduced, of which to a certain individual is an attraction. 

From an audible experience based on my ability to detect information extracted from the Groove, the options I have around me to use as  Phonostages are all seemingly with a Parity for being Spacious and Detailed.

I would say the SUT has the edge on creating the perception of being Involving and wanted to be maintained in use. 

My Perceptions of how an analytical period of listening impacts om me as an individual with unique preferences for an end sound. 

@lewm I don't think I have heard the very best of anything the commercial world can put out as an Audio Device, especially Phonostage. Who has in this thread? 

In my limitation to nearly all Audio Experiences being UK Bound, I do think I have experienced in known systems, a very good Commercial Offering in Phon's upto £15K.

At Events I have heard commercial offered Phon's that far exceed the £15K.

I have been very familiar with Commission Built Phon's upto £8K where bespoke parts are produced for the design. 

I have heard DIY Built Phon's  where the BOM is close to  £2.5K

I am very familiar with an extensive range of Phon's and shortlisted only a few, and also had one commission built to meet my own needs.

Help me out please, when the Phon' of Phon's does become available for my experiencing. How do I capitalise on this opportunity.

Must the TA be the £60K Sat. 

Must the LOMC be over £20K

Must the TT be north of £80Kish

Must the Interconnects be £20K+

What must the Downstream equate to £250Kish.

Would I be wrong to try out a SUT or Head when such a Audio Set Up is assembled. 

I don't want the 'so called' best, I'm happy with the cut of ribs or offal. 

But what I really want, is simply something that makes the idea of it sticking around attractive. I have got this in many owned items to be used for Audio and Music Replay purposes. 

It is important the OP knows this and those looking in without comment made. 

@lewm  Has this not been where the Thread Started,

Has not all Posts been close to describing what one is doing as their very unique methodology to experience a particular type of Cartridge and nothing else.

Have you not yourself stated the following:

 "The answer to Raul's OP question seems to be no, nobody knows which cartridge type is inherently "better".  But most of us have an opinion."

Funny how when I express an opinion on how I perceive what might be the best conditions to assess the Mother of all Phon's, the reply is that it is utter rubbish.

A Pole might suggest my hypothetical list is one that a proportion of others seem to think would be attractive is able to be achieved.

But!, If they Don't, at least the assessment of the Threads Theme and Contribution has bee maintained, where most of us have an opinion . 

@atmasphere You Stated:

"the most expensive gear might not be the best sounding."

Might !!, Is very broad in its context used.

I will say when I eventually / If I eventually get to experience the end sound produced by the most expensive equipment. There might be a sound discovered that shows it to be extremely desirable to keep in use, maybe more attractive a sound than any other encountered. Obviously affordability will be the realised  constraint to making an acquisition materialise.

I don't see too much difference between either of our Statements, they are both Conjecture. 

I suspect that any body with a interest in experiencing something that is off real interest to them, is with a underlying wish to experience the very best of what is available.

Gastronomes will quite happy put their name on a waiting list to be given a seat in a restaurant of choice with a year for the waiting.

A Photography Enthusiast, will usually make sacrifices to get to the place of having professional quality Glass in their arsenal of lenses.

Vintage Car Enthusiasts will Travel far and wide to see the most pristine models from their chosen era of production.

Vehicle Enthusiasts, with little interest in owning a Performance Car will pay to experience Track Days in Super Car with Professional Driver and Coach, just to know what it is all about, a Performance Car Enthusiast, I presume the Goal is to keep going to the day out is in a Formula One Vehicle?

As for Audio Equipment, there are many who are enthusiasts, that would like the experience of being seated in front of an Uber Expensive Set Up.

I myself have done this on occasions to the point I class myself as Familiar with an extremely expensive Audio System. Even though extremely impressive and always thoroughly enjoyed when experienced, I do not class this as the Very Best in Audio, neither is it the very best produced sound that I have encountered.

My own take is attraction to end sound is unique to each individual, so each has their very own preference for what they want to wed themselves to.

My inquiry was relating to what would need to be the supporting equipment to prove a particular device selected for Audio purposes is the Best of the Offerings.

If I made the Statement I have heard the best end sound from any of the Phon's I have heard in use, hence I believe this Phon' to be the best Phon' ever produced.  I'm sure my statement would be questioned quite heavily.

The heavily questioning may be quite less, if such a statement is backed up with the types of supporting equipment used, the description offered will hopefully be one that can be seen to be with increased creditability, if references to equipment used are seen as cutting edge and at the forefront of design and function.

But most importantly, all the context of the above is conjecture, the experiencing and impression being made is the only way to assess how an end sound is one to be lived with or not.

@lewm seemingly decided he knew the quality of the end sound of my owned Phon's and suggested my owned and in use Phon's, were inferior in producing sound to others.

My Bespoke Built Phon' was over a period of time carefully worked with, to Voice it to my own particular preference. When the Phon' got to the end sound I was most attracted to. The designer / builder, made it known, my version was to be the upgrade option. I know I have got exactly what I want to make Old Bones with.

I also know Customers for this same Phon' design are extremely pleased with having discovered this as an option.

   

       

  

@mmcgill829 The very best method to make a discovery about a impact a device can have is to experience it with an open mind.

You are on the right track with Winding Ratio's selected.

The want to experience will be furthered as an educational encounter when a SUT is used in your system.

Your assessment of your experience, as well as the impression that is made on you, is awaited by myself.

There is plenty of info in this thread and linked threads to help you get a bearing on what has been experienced. 

I am happy to have supplied a description that will be a aid to this. 

 

@lewm I do not own a Paradise at the present or any other time.

I have described how I have experienced the Paradise as a SS Circuit as a few build guises. 

I also made it known that an alternative SS Phon' is also known to me that is one I am very impressed by.

I am without a Vinyl Source, it is packed away ready for storage. 

I have a few intersting experiences to be had around Vinyl Replays in the future.

I am having most of the Musical experiences in the homes of others. 

For myself, being social around my hobby  is more important than the  music replays and much much more important than equipment. 

I have not watched the Youytube Clip, the Title itself 'Best Sound' is a detractor immediately. I have run out of Steam, when it comes to being exposed to such individualist assessments. 

A Phon' used as a MC Input only or MM Input connected to a SUT or Head Amp, is a matter of choice to experience and a matter of choice if it is to be maintained.

The choices made are not ubiquitous and the Math for the choices that can be made will take one to one option type if the quietest of output is the desired goal.

I have as of yet, in relation to listening experiences, not been convinced that a MC Input on an Phon' is the option to be maintained by myself, over other options. 

 

In my first post on this Thread I make known my perceptions of experiencing broad variety of different SUT's from Brands and Tranx Suppliers. I also add my perceptions of Head Amp's experienced as well.

Various Perceptions of Tonal Richness can easily be described variety of flavours or seasoning.

What I did not make known is that I can create a perception of immense Tonal Richness by using the MM Input on my Valve Input / Output Phon'. It is not in anyway preferred, but is as Tonal Rich as I would ever go near as an experience to be had.

I have experienced SUT's that can create a perception of TR that has surpassed the direct into the MM Input I can endure for short periods.

SUT's need to be experienced, to discover where ones TR tolerances are to be pressed on or where there is a TR that can be embraced and wanted to be maintained. 

There is a pursuit for Transparency, I am familiar with that very pursuit, and got off the Bus, where I found the levels I like.

My selections of SUT and Head Amp' are tools that enable my selected levels of Tolerable Transparency to not be noticeably encroached upon.                                   For myself both perceptions locked onto, a very loose, slow to decay Bass, as well as the Perception of Crystalline Transparency are Detractors in equal measure.

It is also an interesting point, that the few individuals I know that created what I will refer to as a s Crystalline Transparency, spent quite a period of time attempting to discover a Rich Tone that could be added that was tolerable to themselves, enabling the periods of listening to be accepted for longer periods.

The individual on their pursuit for Transparency/Richness have to find their own unique place to get of the Bus when it comes to end sound being produced,

Too much Transparency can be well Too much Transparency, this is not a Goal in how a Audio End Sound is to be presented, it is a Idealism, a Fantastical Place.

Only a few promote the idea of Transparency, each individual should decide on their own interpretation through listening and deciding what is now  'Too much Transparency'

As Transparency is broadly described as a condition where unwanted residuals are processed and removed, as an attempt to keep the system as pure as possible.      The image might help with a visualisation of what can be classed by some as needing 'Further Transparency' maybe the Grey Connector is too much colour to be able to visualise for a few. Another Group, will view this Clarity as 'Too much Transparency' , maybe a little more opaqueness to the material will be welcomed, or the addition of a translucent veil might suffice, maybe some might not want to visualise it at all, and put something in place to screen it off.