Stylus skipping at beginning of record

nothing to do with antiskate.....raise the rear end of your tonearm.  Then adjust for all the other parameters

@tooblue pm me your questions. 

@audphile1 , I went to your system page and saw that you have the Sabrina's and would love to hear your thoughts on them. Don't want to hijack this thread so if you would be so good as to PM me if you would like to talk about them. Enjoy the music

@tooblue thanks…and you as well. 

If sibilance is OK then please proceed. Otherwise, azimuth and anti-skate would be my path for a styli misbehaving at a record’s edge guard lead-in.

Also worth note - If cueing via the tonearm’s cueing lever, it really helps to have that interface between the lever’s platform and the underside of the tonearm sterile and clean for maximum friction.

Even zero AS ought not to cause your problem although I’ve never used your particular tonearm. One has to wonder why your “technician” left you with zero AS, however. Usually zero AS causes noticeable distortion especially in the R channel. I adjust AS up from zero until that distortion is ameliorated. There’s no such thing as a perfect AS setting because the skating force is constantly changing across the surface of the LP. I favor the “raised lip” hypothesis, and to cure that I would just mute the output until the cartridge visibly hits the outermost groove of an LP. Finally, I repeat what I said before and others have said too, it’s unwise to exceed the recommended VTF.

@audphile1 , sounds like you are the one making the assumptions. Enjoy the music

@rvpiano glad to help!

@tooblue shooting in a dark…why’s that?

I set up my cartridge using Dr. Feichert’s latest protractor. Overhang, VTA and VTF were all set based on instructions and then slightly fine tuned by ear. In solving the lead in groove skipping I had conversations with Upscale Audio, where I purchased my cartridge (excellent support by the way, kudos to Kat and Bill from their analog department), as well as with Musical surroundings (the USA distributor for Hana). I followed their recommendations to troubleshoot this issue and eventually minimized it to an extremely occasional occurrence which isn’t a big deal.
@rvpiano and I have the same cartridge, Hana ML and I shared my experience here with him. Are you making assumptions that no one here knows what they’re doing?

This post reminds me of shooting at things in the dark without night vision, just hit and miss.

@audphile1

You were right!!

Tooblue,

The technician had set it at zero antiskate. Of course the problem was acute. 
I then experimented with various settings.  When I increased the antiskating  level it didn’t skip at all but the sound was dull. I then lowered the antiskating a bit and the sound was the best I heard it. The needle still skipped but not as much.

I just increased the tracking force and that seems to have improved things further.

OP, you never answered if it was only after you adjusted the anti-skate that the issue developed, if so then retrack your steps and you will find the issue there. Enjoy the music

Do not exceed the recommended tracking force. 

The recommended tracking force is always a good starting place, but it does not take into account the mass of the tonearm. A heavy tonearm is going to work the cartridge suspension more than a light tonearm. 

@rvpiano try and bump the vtf up to 2.04gr like I suggested. It solves the problem. 

aside from other considerations, suppose everything is absolutely correct:

some cartridges are 'low riders', meaning the stylus cantilever is very close to the bottom of the cartridge body's underside.

thus a low rider bottom of it's cartridge body may still be in contact with the raised edge of the LP, UNTIL, as you describe, it 'moves in' a few grooves, thus no longer being 'pushed up' by the raised edge, (thus allowed to drop down properly into the groove).

i'e. I bought a Wayne's Auto perimeter ring, it's outer edge is thin, yet up a bit from the grooves. My cartridge body is unable to get low enough to play the beginning of the 1st track, until the cartridge body moves in enough to get down enough for the stylus to get into the groove properly. My Sumiko might work, it has a much larger space from the stylus tip to the underside of it's cartridge body, I guess I could call it a 'high rider'.

I use AudioTechnica N145 cartridge that tracks at 1.25...1.50g. My cue lever is slow enough to land PERFECTLY without jumping even on records that have thicker lip. That's on my Thorens TD125. On my VPI turntable I prefer to land needle first then turn on motor. It picks up speed almost as fast as DD turntable. 

Recommended is 2g.  I’m at about 1.9  

yogiboy,

Thanks for  the sympathetic post.

 It really is a PITA!

If you are tracking within the recommended range, you are not too light.  Do not exceed the recommended tracking force. The recommended tracking force is not only intended to minimize wear and damage to the stylus, cantilever, and suspension of the cartridge, it should minimize issues with record wear.  The recommended downforce puts the signal generating elements of the cartridge in their proper orientation when the record is being played--to high a force pushes the generating element out of its proper location and this will adversely affect the sound.  Do not adopt a "cure" for one problem that causes another.

Don’t be embarrassed. My friend Has an OL arm. I helped him set it up and I must say it is a royal PITA! This is from another forum discussion about that arm!

When you do get help, maybe ask the guy to teach you how to set VTF, antiskate, VTA, etc, using your tonearm. As to VTF, most makers publish a range of acceptable values for each cartridge. Look that up. If you’re within the recommended range, I doubt VTF is the problem but if you’re in the low end of acceptable then maybe tweak it but don’t exceed the recommended range. This is assuming you are able to measure VTF.

I believe the problem is probably that the tracking force is too light. It’s presently under two grams. Problem is, I’m embarrassed to say, that I don’t know how to adjust it. Nothing is easy adjusting this Volare turntable. I’m calling the technician who set it up to find out.  
I don’t want to increase the antiskating because I have it dialed in for best sound.

As mijostyn and I have said, it is the stylus sliding down the lip that is the cause of the problem.  DO NOT adjust anti-skating for the purpose of resolving this issue because you will be setting it way too high for playing the rest of the record.  Set antiskating correctly and just adopt the practice of setting the stylus down a little further into the record.

" I've adjusted my anti-skating to maximize the SQ of my records." If it wasn't doing it before you did your adjustments go back and start there. You have posted recently that you purchased the Valore with the OL Silver arm and seemed to be very happy with it. The love and hate for vinyl and it's playback borders on getting a feel for your setup and not being afraid to fine tune and adjust. By the way the Valore set up you have is a very nice table that after you dial it in should provide you with great music. Enjoy the music

Records have a lip. It is not uncommon for the stylus to slide down that lip between grooves pick up speed and skip over a few. Cue inside the lip and you won't have a problem or use a mute control. I cue by finger lift and I hold the cartridge steady until the stylus grabs a groove. 

Maybe you're cartridge is not dropping down low enough.

Thank you all for your suggestions.

@rvpiano I have my Hana ML set at 2.04-2.05gr. It’s only slightly higher than the recommended 2gr. I also set the anti-skate just a bit more aggressive. Problem cured for nearly all records. There’s still an occasional skip thru the lead in grooves but it’s rare. I’d make sure the table is level as well.
Also @larryi provided a good suggestion that works!

I'd also look at tracking force, anything less than 2 grams is suspect. 

As the record revolves, the stylus naturally wants to skate toward the center of the record, and anti-skate is meant to keep this from happening.  So do your best to get the amount of anti-skate as dead-on as possible.

My method of achieving this is to put my least-warped LP onto the turntable and placing a nice, tiny spirit level on top of it. Once the LP/platter combo is leveled, home in on the proper amount of anti-skate force by adjusting anti-skate force a little bit at a time until, when you lower the needle into the moving groove, the tonearm-cartridge duo doesn't want to shift either forwards or backwards when it touches down..

I got to say, too, that LP edge-warp is one of the banes of the analogue universe.

Don’t remember. :-) But if faced with it now the first thing I’d try would be to increase (slightly) the VTF and see if that solved the problem. VTF is a moving target but your cartridge maker should have spec’d a range. The other possibility (if not probability) is that you have the anti-skate set slightly off and it is presently walking off the light grove at the beginning of the record until it gets into the deeper groove where the music resides and the physical nature of the groove arrests its movement. If you can correct the problem with adjustments of both, I’d select the antiskate adjustment - likely to cause the least amount of change to the signal. Have fun.................!

BTW I just read larryi's suggestion - he could be right - simple to rule out. 

The problem most likely has to do with the raised bead around the edge of most records.  That bead gives the record strength, and in the old days, that bead also kept record surfaces from touching each other when records were stacked for automatic play.

When you set the needle down on the top of that bead, it slides downhill and gains momentum that can carry it past the first grooves it encounters.  Do what you have been doing already--set the needle down further into the record.  With practice, you will still be setting down before the music commences.