SLAW
"Wow! I was listening to the 1st pressing of Jimmy Page/Robert Plant "No Quarter", (which is an excellent sounding lp), and since it was in need of flattening, I put the Stillpoints LP isolator onto the top of my McCormack DNA 225 (Platinum) that is sitting inside (on the bottom shelf) of a Solidsteel 5.2 rack, the amp's shelf, which is a BDR, "shelf-for-the source" platform that is itself, sitting on three original Stillpoints isolators, the amp is isolated more by Symposium Rollerblock Jrs. w/ ceramic ball upgrade. Whew!"
Sounds like you need to send that DNA-225 Plat into SMc Audio and have the StillPoints Standoff treatment done to your amp. It will put the vibration reduction right where the source of the problem is happening, preventing any vibrations from reaching the circuit boards.
Steve has mentioned many time at how much these make a such a hugh difference when installed |
Audiophlia is like any other addiction , you need ever more
to get the initial thrill . |
You are right about experimentation. One has to stop somewhere, I suppose. |
Agriculturist, I suspect that you are right. I have many of Lloyd Walkers lead centered brass ring pucks and could have tried this, but alas I lost interest. I once made power cords out of two, four and eight lengths of speaker wires. The greater the number the better the sound.
One can do countless experiments. |
Agriculturist, basically it robbed the music of pace (or toetapping) and dynamics |
Tbg, I could be missing something that you noticed, and it will strike me later. This has happened to me before. Or perhaps the SP Ultra 5s are too heavy, while the Mapleshades I have are just heavy enough but not too heavy. |
Tbg, I have to say that after a couple hours of listening to my system using three LPIs each augmented by Mapleshades on the VAC chassis, I find I am substantially better off than without the Mapleshade weights. No downside so far. The upsides are: more body and color, better voice and instrument separation, better bass, less edge on vocals and even instruments, i.e., more rounded and natural. That is to say I am finding that the benefits of using the LPIs are magnified. Of course, without a doubt and in line with Whatthe suggested earlier, these benefits are possible primarily because of the very high quality circuits and parts of the VAC 160iSE. What I am assuming the SP LPIs do is eliminate chassis resonance, which probably leaks into the amp circuits and even perhaps the tubes. I am curious to hear what you didn't like with the extra weight of the Ultra 5s versus the LPIs, as I will keep a watch for that.
Thanks again. |
TBG, actually based on your suggestion I got three Mapleshade weights (two .75 lbs and one 1.5 lbs) and put them on top of the three SP LPIs I have on the preamp section of my VAC integrated. So far I am loving the difference the extra weight makes. What did you find gets tarnished or spoiled?
Thanks for the ideas. |
Agriculturist, it makes a big difference but it tarnishes something. Try it. |
That is definitely interesting to hear about the weight making a difference. Thanks. |
I see what you mean. I thought you meant under the amp. |
Agriculturist, the Ultra Sixs make no sense on top a component as one side has five of the "technology" and the other side one.
The only addition that the Five offers over the LPI is greater weight. The heavier weight was evident, but sometimes it was good and some times not. UMMV. |
Yes, tbg, I hope to try that or the Ultra 6 sometime. |
Agriculturist, try a SP Ultra Five on your amp. |
Agree with you Whatthe. The LPIs I have are by means transformative of the sound from my very refined VAC integrated amp which is essentially responsible for an outsized share of the great sound I enjoy. But the two SP LPIs on top of my amp's chassis do give a lift in the sound which I am hoping/thinking is qualitatively/quantitatively similar to that of putting Stillpoint 5s one by one under the chassis as well. I currently have SP Aluminum Ultras and various SP bases under key components, and I like these a lot too. So I have thought of the SP LPIs as a stealthy way to build my way up the SP ladder. The fact that my LPI turned out to have this benefit meant that I didn't have to take a bath on the LPI that I had mistakenly purchased for my Linn LP12. |
Bill_k, yes, isn't that ridiculous? It does use expensive materials and does sound very good. It is widely acclaimed. I bought mine used. |
I haven't had an opportunity to audition the Dalby D7 vinyl stabilizer, but at a reported price of $6,380 I would certainly expect it to be great! It appears to be beautifully finished like a piece of fine art. |
Dover, you are an example of what wrong with audio critiquing today. There is little science pertaining to audio design. You state that There is little coupling of the record to the platter. This would suggest that you have some reason to believe that a record that is permanently bound to the platter. Is there some science that would suggest this is true? I think not. I compared the screw down system on the Bergman Sindre versus the Dably. The Dalby blew the screw down away. Incidentally, although I think rim weighting the record is helpful, it is a pain in the a--.
In the absence of any real scientific research, I think listening is ones only recourse. I have compared the Dalby against many other record weights. The Stillpoints is the second best in my opinion and is certainly a best buy. |
The Dalby D7 Vinyl Stabiliser is an example of everything that is wrong with audio today. The kings new clothes. If you examine the bottom you will see that it cannot improve the coupling of the record to the platter unless the platter or record mat is slightly concave. If the platter/mat is flat then it is effectively putting a little mass on the record label and nothing else. It does not change one iota the behaviour of the section of vinyl under the stylus. And yes I have heard it. Its value lies entirely in the bling bling world of exclusivity. No doubt you will hear a difference, but its minor and there are better ways to spend the money if improving your system is the primary goal.
In my experience if you want to deal with vinyl resonances then either
1) A well designed reflex clamp that is designed to couple the record to the platter via either a washer under the record ( e.g. Sota system ) or slightly concave mat ( Goldmund system )
2) Use a peripheral ring ( eg Micro Seiki, Clearaudio, TT Weights, VPi )
3) Use a heavy stabiliser in conjunction with a concave mat or a stabiliser that only contacts the outer edge of the record label and is designed to work in conjunction with a washer under the record.
4) Use a vacuum turntable system. |
This is by far my favorite forum thread. Don't get me wrong I love Stillpoints. I have ultra 5's under my speakers and turntable. I have the LP1 record weight. They are made extremely well and great looking. Do they transform my system to another level? I think not. Although my wife puts the LP1 on my chest while I am sleeping. Says it stops my snoring. Another usage.
I'm just say'in ✌️ |
I think that the Dalby D7 Vinyl Stabiliser is the best for a table with no spring isolation. In my experience The Stillpoints LPI is quite different and works on a broader range of turntables.
I don't think much else can be said. Try it and buy it if you like it, but given the expense of the Dalby, you better like it a lot. I do! |
I will second Slaw's discovery about the LPI working very well as a weight for amps, in my case an integrated VAC amp - VAC 160iSE. I find these work very effectively in drawing off resonance if placed near the preamp section of my integrated. I originally got it for my TT but then learned my Linn LP12 is not well suited to these heavy weights. Serendipitously and accidentally I discovered they are very useful in the way described. |
04-18-15: Slaw
I think it's important to note that these devices work differently in every individual set-up. IE: differing TTs, in association with varying platforms etc... IMO, there is no ONE "best" record weight clamp that will work equally well in the majority of the differing systems out there. I completely agree with Slaw, every set up and every clamp sounds different and there is no way to guarantee one design will be best for every situation. I have seven weights / clamps designs that are different sound, including a Stillpoints LPI for my turntable. I two extra Stillpoints LPI that were to serve as isolation under my Focal Grande EM power supplies (at suggestion of Stillpoints). I preferred Stillpoints Ultra Mini in that spot so like TBG (Norm) I need to sell a couple. |
Hi Dinster,
I have spent a lot of time with various record weights. My finding is the same as yours having nothing to do with materials used or brand. I have found that weights in general shift the frequency band down a bit. So weights tend to dull the upper frequencies and accentuate the mids and low frequency bands. They also give you sharper images and cleaner leading edges. That's the good side. The bad is that they narrow the soundstage. I have settled on no weight and I'm not alone if you research the subject on the "What's Best Forum." Another idea is to try the Oyaide Record weight. It comes in two weight classes and they are adjustable giving you the option of listening to the best weight. They are a bit funky looking but they work really well. One other idea is to buy the Oyaide rubber mat which is only $100 and will increase your fidelity greatly.
Have fun! |
No Quarter is a great great album. Even the CD is unbelievable. |
Wow! I was listening to the 1st pressing of Jimmy Page/Robert Plant "No Quarter", (which is an excellent sounding lp), and since it was in need of flattening, I put the Stillpoints LP isolator onto the top of my McCormack DNA 225 (Platinum) that is sitting inside (on the bottom shelf) of a Solidsteel 5.2 rack, the amp's shelf, which is a BDR, "shelf-for-the source" platform that is itself, sitting on three original Stillpoints isolators, the amp is isolated more by Symposium Rollerblock Jrs. w/ ceramic ball upgrade. Whew!
Now, while the lp was playing, and the lp isolator was not in use, I put it on top of the amp and, WOW!, the dynamics were much improved, it almost seemed as if the volume was increased, I feel that so much hash was removed that I was hearing what is really on this lp! |
Amazing we have a manufacturer of a competiting product posting regularly in this thread about Still points trying to discredit and sell his products.
Reaks of desperation and not sure why audiogin allow it, except that he advertises on audiogon |
Slaw: We have attempted smaller diameter outer ring but the machining borderlines on impossible, we used to make a small diameter ring but had to stop production. We made more bad ones than good ones.
cool video of the stylus in a groove:
http://www.ttweights.com/product-videos_1.html
Consider the stylus and an outer ring simply works and makes sense.
Cheers |
I have a Brinkmann La Grange turntable that has its own screw-on clamp. I auditioned the Stillpoint weight and instantly heard a considerably tighter and deeper bass - so it was a no brainer- like night and day.
Another benefit is not having to faff about screwing clamp down and getting into problems with over tightening etc - although that's just a side issue. Sonically the Stillpoint massively improved my Brinkmann. |
As Dgarretson wrote: "I use it and I like it".
I see that comment as a logical end to this discussion. It does require a significant investment in order to find out for yourself. If you are in to vinyl in a serious way, and after evaluating your system's needs, if you conclude that a device of this sort will possibly be of benefit, you need to experience one for yourself. |
Ttweights: You aren't considering potential customers like myself who use an ET arm. (Why are we the forgotten ones?) There is a compatibility issue regarding having the clearance for the products you offer as well as other issues.
I will reiterate that one clamp/weight isn't necessarily the best for all situations. |
I think it's important to note that these devices work differently in every individual set-up. IE: differing TTs, in association with varying platforms etc... IMO, there is no ONE "best" record weight clamp that will work equally well in the majority of the differing systems out there. |
Hi guys,
Some interesting information on resonance control of the Stylus (often ignored)and the human hearing and brain interaction, go to the link on our site:
http://www.ttweights.com/web-page_2.html
Note regarding center bearing damping - noisy table - heavy weight - no clamp - plus outer ring
Cheers
Larry |
I'm a big believer in the Durand Record Weight which to my ears betters not only any other record clamp or weight I've heard but also vacuum hold-down too based on my experience. of course; I've not heard everything out there, YMMV and all that stuff. |
Here's the difference I heard on my Kuzma XL (with Airline arm), compared to the factory screw down clamp which is also heavier than the Stillpoints:
not as loud, not as prominent a bump in the upper bass which tended to give music explosive power and propulsive thrust; more relaxed but less apparent bass b/c of that 'bump' mentioned above (which may be due in part to the table and set-up; if you are familiar with the table, it is a heavweight, and I have a oversize HRS platform beneath it, all sitting on a massisve old mahogany prayer table which weighs hundreds of pounds, with extremely thick chunks of sorbothane underneath the table legs (which are really 'panels,' not individual legs), to isolate the whole assemblage from footfalls (the room is at the top of the house with wooden floors).
I found that I needed to readjust the woofer gain and cross-over settings slightly to give me 'more bass' relative to the horn mids (not much latitude to change speaker position to compensate for change made by the clamp/weight). I also had to crank up the gain a bit, not a big deal.
There is more ease, less apparent punch but I think that 'punch' is a coloration; I bought the thing when it came out and have used it ever since (after doing repeated comparisons with the factory clamp).
My take: this is something that you do after all else on the table has been sorted. Not sure if the difference I heard is more pronounced given my set-up and system (which is shown in my system pics here), but there it is. |
I use a Harmonic Resolutions Systems ADH record weight and the improvement vs. the standard VPI delrin clamp is beyond dramatic. There may be "better" (in a given system) clamps/weights out there for more money, but I doubt you can buy a better record weight for $400, which is what the ADH costs.
Btw, I use the ADH with the VPI periphery ring. |
It's an interesting approach with the primary function of draining vibration from the spindle bearing area, and the secondary function of clamping the record to the platter. A heavier weight or clamp might be more effective at the latter, while less so at the former. A peripheral ring is probably better at clamping then any clamp, with the further advantage of increased flywheel effect contributing to speed stability. Maybe the best of all possible worlds is LPI for vibration in combination with peripheral ring for impedance matching and speed stability. |
Dgarretson, what one has with the Stillpoint technology is ceramic balls sitting on three same size ceramic balls that are spread just far enough apart to not allow the one on top falling through. This makes the vector of vertical vibrations almost entirely horizontal but this is restrained by a stainless ring, meaning it is turned into heat. |
Assuming that you buy into the Stillpoints "technology," the LPI operates differently from other weights and clamps. The idea is that its five pyramidal bearing pockets convert vibration into mechanical energy dissipated as the heat of friction between the bearings. With this approach it should be possible to drain vibration without resorting to higher mass. I use it and like it.
At an audio show I experienced a demo in which an LPI was placed on top of the switching power supply of a headphone amp. After a few seconds background noise fell off and the presentation gained clarity. When the LPI was turned upside down (decoupling the bearing pockets from the interface) there was a lesser improvement. |
Radioheadokplayer, had I know you had a Lenco, I would have known that as that is what I have also. |
Watch out.
$550.00 is a large investment for the minimal improvement over other options.
There is a best of 5-10% reduction in vibration vs. an outer record clamp pure fact. The ring couples 100 times the surface area directly on the outer edge - around the record vs. a small locating diameter in the center of the record LABEL - center clamp or weight.
We shipped many center weights (6000 and counting)and we are the leader in center weight production and our best pure copper center weight - Yes Pure expensive copper 3.2 Lbs and sounds amazing.
We build a killer 2.2 lb stainless carbon fibre that will equal the stillpoints product for under $250.00 - and a 1 lb for $89.00 more reasonable and the Classic has been on the market since 2008 and is very effective and is the most common center weight out there today...
Buy an outer record clamp for a few dollars more and get 10 times the results of ANY center clamp/weight period.
We will post actual test measurements shortly!
Larry |
Stillpoints told me that for the Lenco idler wheel TT you need to use the long spindle.... |
Radioheadokplayer, I don't think there is a sonic difference, but I would check with Stillpoints and ask. |
How do you know if you need the stillpoints short or long spindle? |
Pkoegz: I can only try to express what I hear in my system. It replaces my original two-piece BDR(clamp). That (clamp) kept the vinyl tighter/flatter to the platter. If I didn't have positive results with it, I'd sell it and buy some lps. The fact is, I enjoy my lps much more now in the ways I described. |
common, I have owned the Stillpoints record weight for well over a year. It' is well made and looks very cool. But common, let's not make it more then it is. It is a very cool record weight. No more. The idea that it transforms your TT set up in to some magical mythical transducer is just that, a mythical fantasy. An illusion. It keeps the vinyl tighter and flatter to the platter. Some like that and others feel it take the life out of a record. I enjoy it both ways. Some times with and some times without. But it always looks great. |
FWIW, here's my personal results using the Stillpoints LP I.
Increase in transparency would be the best one-word term to describe it in my system. This has an effect on everything.
Increase in micro/macro detail
Increase in resolution
Transient response is even quicker/sharper/snappier
Bass info is more delineated, less confused,
Music sounds clearer/cleaner
I would imagine each persons unique system/set-up will react differently. These are my findings, all positive. |
Try a Boston Audio mat 2 with no weight or clamp. So far that may be the best option I've tried. |
I know you all really know what the Stillpoints LP I is/does. Still (hah,hah), I think calling it a record weight doesn't describe this item accurately. It is really a device that provides a way for resonance to flow out of the lp/platter, reducing that to heat, instead of driving them back into the platter/bearing. (This is an important distinction!) It does weigh around one pound, so in this sense it is a weight. |
Get the Stillpoints record weight. It works great. Then replace your Linn with something good. |
