I borowed both the Saga, Freya, and Vidar for several l months. I really liked that Shiit and it was Quality gear for its price and more. I ended up with a Tube integrated which sounded better on my speakers. I have not looked back. I think for the non-weathy group it has a definite place with high end gear.
Stereophile's 2021 products of the year
And wow! Schiit Audio 20w Class-A Aegir stereo poweramp made it into the A rating.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/stereophile-s-2012-products-of-the-year
Cheers George
127 responses Add your response
I find it very sad that most of the Stereophile basher’s here, are also too technically inept to understand the measurements. I just did a search and beside me, the only ones that mention Stereophile measurements are two that admit they don’t look at them!!! And measurements will tell you far more than "just the review", and "could" show you if the reviewers full of it also. Cheers George |
I consider SP and HFNRR to be about the best of the lot. I used to think that HiFi+ was just as good...until they sold to TAS. HiFi+ retains a higher standard than their overlord but one can see some negative impact. HiFi World is interesting, a vinyl and vintage forward bias, but their over the top promotion of Icon Audio equipment begs the question of a commercial connection. TAS ? No thanks. Too many lists, too many non review recommendations, too much of a documented history of pay to play, and a senior editor with a public record of unethical behavior. SP and HFNRR are carefully written and provide thoughtful commentary. Both provide measurements that are correlated to what one hears, or does not hear. One can gain an understanding of how a piece of equipment sounds, and the biases of individual reviewers. |
@georgehifi - the measurements can be useful and I'm glad that Stereophile takes the time to do them, but they don't tell the whole story. That's why subjective reviews exist and are generally useful. I also find it disappointing that Stereophile no longer really explores a product's weaknesses, and has eliminated negative reviews. I used to really enjoy TAS and SP back in the late 70's, early 80's when Harry Pearson and J Gordon Holt were at the helms. But I do agree that most products available these days are pretty good. With the amount of information shared on the internet, it's all but impossible for a company that makes truly bad products to survive. But every product has strengths and weaknesses, and the biggest challenge of building a great sounding system is figuring out which components play well together. That's really where the professional reviewers should come in - trying a product with a variety of other components and describing what worked well and what worked poorly. Some reviewers do a better job at this than others. I recognize that most reviewers are working out of their home and are either doing it as a second job, or living fairly frugally on a writer's income. So it's challenging for any reviewer to have a wide variety of products to test with. |
@georgehifi - the measurements can be useful and I’m glad that Stereophile takes the time to do them, but they don’t tell the whole story. That’s why subjective reviews exist and are generally useful. They actually tell more than 50% of the story. And "if" the reviewer "was truthful", the measurements "can" explain why he may say EG: say the bass sounded a little thick and uncontrolled, measurements may show poor damping factor (high output impedance) poor current ability. Or the highs of an amp sound distant and recessed, measurement could show early rolloff in the HF because of poor HF bandwidth extension even phase shift, or inability to handle low impedances creating it to become a tone control, like the bass problem above. So many things can be read into an amps potential performance by looking at the measurements. After all, every amp ever made was designed and made primary by using measurements and the laws of electronics, if you find one that wasn’t, then your looking at a piece of unreliable junk. There is no "snake oil" or "voodoo" in the design of high end audio, or even low end mp3 players. Cheers George |
Stereophile and TAS reviews are way more credible than the opinions expressed in this forum. All three can be useful, however. The fourth source, of course, is direct listening at a dealer. But dealer equipment is limited, and dealers are rare in some areas. As a member of LAOCAS, I get to hear equipment every month at a different LA area dealer. (Befoe Covid, that is.)I will admit that my very latest acquisitions were from forum suggestions. Just let your ears and wallet be your final guide. |
Stereophile's Recommended list was something I so looked forward to receiving and reading over and over....learned a lot over the years. I just received the latest and it is pathetic, mostly their advertisers....ZERO integrity remaining at Stereophile. My biggest beef is how many "Golden Ear" products can they possibly list???? I have heard their products, good but not great and their subs pale in comparison to my JL f-112 or e-112. End rant. |
@georgehifi - I find it very sad that most of the Stereophile basher’s here, are also too technically inept to understand the measurements. George, I admit I don't understand how many technical measurements translate to (or create) something audible to me. I wish I did, because about the most I can do it to compare measurements between components I'm interested in - and compare to those I own, since I know how my system sounds. The flaw in my analysis (like someone mentioned above about a "who's who" system that didn't sound great) is it ignores any synergy between components, or in my mind, how one component's measurements can capture the best qualities of another. I guess it's years of experience listening, comparing measurements, and knowing (and being honest about) sound preferences in the context of budget. I would love some tutorial on the most important measures for primary components and how they link - e.g. impedance/loading MC cartridge to phono pre - line stage...etc. And if stuff like that isn't really important, I need to know that too. I do so much reading in work, when I'm done, all I want to do is listen to music....... I know I'm off topic. But many aspects of this post to consider. |
I would love some tutorial on the most important measures for primary components and how they link - e.g. impedance/loading MC cartridge to phono pre - line stage...etc. And if stuff like that isn’t really important, I need to know that too. Gotcha covered. The most important measurements are speaker sensitivity and cartridge output. Get those right and you can safely ignore all the others they will have zero impact on your ability to create a fantastically musically satisfying system. Don’t believe me? Come and hear mine. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Speaker sensitivity matters because you can use it to screen out speakers that will be hard (read, expensive) to drive. Anything much below 92dB you are better off to leave for others. There are so many fantastic speakers 95dB and up, they all can be driven beautifully with anything from a handful of watts and up. This one measurement, speaker sensitivity, eliminates all concern over how many watts your amp has, whether it is tube or SS, impedance, all that jazz. Drives people who spent years memorizing all this stuff batty to think all they had to do was avoid anything under 92. Oh well. Their problem. Not mine. Not yours either, if you follow this most important of all advice. Cartridge output matters for the same reason. This more than anything else determines what phono stage you will be able to use, whether or not it will need a step up transformer, how easy or hard (read, expensive) it will be to find a good quality low noise phono stage, on and on. That’s it. All the rest is window dressing and bragging rights. Guys love to toss the word salad, pour on the dressing. Watch. Pages will follow! Speaker sensitivity. Cartridge output. All else is noise. |
I have read Stereophile and TAS since the early 80s. I enjoy them for what they are. To me a source of exposure. I do not purchase them to find fault. There is so many good to great products available today why not review those that can be recommended. Cause no harm. (That said I have/had components in my system that have not been reviewed.) The collective sonic merits of a component is so subjective. It remains that one can put together great components at any price level and end up with a system that represents far less than the sum of the individual components. From my viewpoint two technical aspects that could be better discussed in equipment reviews are: 1)The relationship between speaker sensitivity and the impedance/reactance curves with reference to power requirement. (Usually covered well by JA in Stereophile.) 2)Compatibility concerns of the component under review with the upstream or downstream component as influenced by impedance or gain particularities. Reactance and gain structure compatibility across a system is very important. This includes, however is not limited to, speaker sensitivity and cartridge output. I do believe as transducers they do contribute a great deal to the character of a system. |
To the guy who said to stay away from speakers below 92db. Between that and all the writers who say Stereophile is all payola, this whole thread couldn't be more depressing. Dude - if I may call you dude - listen to Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers, well below 92db, and tell people to stay away from them. Sheesh. What is wrong with y'all? |
To the dude with limited reading comprehension, never said there are no good speakers with less than 92dB. What I did was answer a question, what if any measurements are important? Speaker sensitivity surely is one of them. Notice, since I actually do read and comprehend, I do not twist your words around into something you never said. I take what you actually did say and show how you completely misunderstand the message. Anyone looking to build a great music system will do well to exclude from consideration speakers with low sensitivity. Such a speaker will limit your amplifier choices. Since the sound you get is not all due to the speaker but is the sum total of everything in the system, then things like choosing hard to drive speakers exact a price in terms of having to spend more money on amplifiers. Therefore, if you want the best sound you can get for the least money you will do well to avoid such problems. Is that so hard to understand? |
millercarbon, Your explanation above (starting with "Such a speaker will limit your amplifier choices...") is even nicely written. However, tangentially related to the matter, you seem to continually ignore the fact that some people can actually afford to buy an amplifier. It could be beneficial if you reposted your statement from above every time you wanted to explain benefits of higher-sensitivity speakers. Usually, you just come across as talking garbage about it. Like this, people would actually understand what the ground for your thoughts is. Then they could decide if they want to be frugal, or they may not care about spending more money for an amplifier. And you would get some points for advice. |
High efficiency speakers limit your choice of speakers. Plus many high efficiency speakers have very limited bass. That’s how they achieve high efficiency. So there is more to it than that. Unless you must have high efficiency speakers to enable some otherwise limited amplifier. Most speakers even lower efficiency ones with modest power amps will go loud enough for most. |
lonemountain 👍 https://www.stereophile.com/content/atv-scm7-v3-loudspeaker https://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/atc_scm_11_loudspeaker/index.html Cheers George |
lonemountain, At some point, I was really interested in ATC speakers, but found out that it was a dead-end project. They are so underrepresented on the market that it is hard, not to go to virtually impossible, to hear and see them in person. Dealers who cary them did not have much in stock. As close as I could get to them was musicdirect.com with some (unknown at the time) wait time and no returns. Which would mean spending unheard and sight unseen. Even today, one dealer listed on your website does not even mention that they cary the brand on their website. It is a pity that speakers universally thought of being good are so hard to check out. |
The ATC SCM11 V2 has been an absolute no- brainer in its price class for a long time (and not just in my opinion). I don‘t know whether it has made the Stereophile recommended list at some time, but if it hasn‘t I think gpgr4blu may have quite possibly made a salient point. It‘s one thing publishing a good review, it‘s another making the list, which as a previous poster correctly noted, acts as a buying guide for many consumers. No list, no interest from the dealers. Shame really. |
and they did. Thanks to @mesch for additional measurments/factors creating better synergy in system My purchases are typically a process of elimination - budget, specs, appearance, and most importantly, how it sounds in my system in my room. My "dealer" is mostly "brand agnostic" and reps mid to high-end gear at many price points. He's an engineer by education and goes to all shows and visits factories of all brands he carries, so I lean on his judgment considerably. But I really want to better understand the numbers. For example, my current speakers Raidho TD2.2 are 88 db sensitivity, but I had a 3 week in-home demo to really check them out. So like you say, I learned my amplifier was capable of meeting the demands of those speakers to make them shine. Same result when I changed phono cartridge to a Lyra Kleos. I was provided with Delos for a 1 month while awaiting arrival of my Kleos. SQ improvement big time, and of course measurements/specs were significantly better than the predecessor. Awesome system, by the way. Noted significant devotion to vibration and cable shielding. Also note your Herron phono pre, and I'm wondering if that would be an upgrade from over my Aesthetix Rhea Esclipse. I've heard nothing but great things across the board....but there I go again....So anyway thanks! |
But George, what about the fact that every year there are at least a decent handful of components that don’t measure very well but are subjectively loved by the reviewer and they get put into the class A category? What are we to That's why I said way back "And measurements will tell you far more than "just the review", and "could" show you if the reviewers full of it also." Cheers George |
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I give a lot of credit to Mike Moffet of Schiit. I first spoke with him in the early '80 when he founded Theta Audio. He had developed pretty much the first functional CD player. I wanted to buy it but he steered me away since he referred to it as the Frankenstein since it was quite gerry rigged. I wound up getting his ultimate DVD/CD transport, the Compli which I use to this day. Mike has really taken the industry by storm with Schiit Audio. 250,000 amps sold? I have only heard those kind of numbers describing decades of sales of a venerable product like the original Vandys. Schiit has established products, marketing and philosophy that have revolutionized the industry. I was so impressed that Schiit recently introduced a super affordable and good quality TT that gives so many folks the opportunity to dive into vinyl. Really good, affordable "stuff". Bravo Schiit! |
I recently finished reading Shiit Happened, by the founders of Shiit Audio, and can wholeheartedly recommend it as an insightful, often very funny, irreverent take on how to succeed in the audio business while trying (and working) really, really hard, owning your mistakes, and trying hard to treat the people who love music and way-better-than-average sound... Respectfully & well. Did it make me go to their website and think about maybe trying some of their gear, heck yes -- the desired effect, for sure. But they genuinely seem allergic to snake oil and stuff that costs 6 or 14 much as it probably should. More power to 'em, i say. |
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I understand the measurements implicitly, it‘s just that one‘s own philosophy as to how far certain measurements correlate with subjective listening results will normally determine how ’full (or empty) of it‘one determines the reviewer to be. So this becomes a rather subjective process. Which is fine by me. Or do do you believe in absolutes? In which case it is very easy to identify ’full of it’ reviewers (possibly even creating a ’fulness’ score for each reviewer) and by extrapolation disqualify their future reviews from garnering any credibility. |
Or do do you believe in absolutes? I would never buy an amp that measures like ****, and yet a reviewer says it sounds fantastic. I need an amp to measure well for the purpose I intend to use it for, and if the reviewer say it sounds good driving similar speakers to mine as well that's a bonus. Like I said You need to understand the measurements also, that way you can form a judgement if the reviewer is full of it or not. Cheers George |
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http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0709/flesh_blood.htm Written by the same guy who gave the gushing Stereophile review on the Schiit. Wonder how this baby measures? Anyone with experience would have a pretty good idea. We‘re talking percentages here at LF guys, and there‘s even more bad news. A 300B SET that measures well is practically an oxymoron. It‘s up to you whether that makes him a bad reviewer who‘s opinion on the Schiit probably sucks. |
Well, if we were all identical then humanity would be a dead thing, a non conscious thing. We may only exist in the area of attempting consciousness, but at least the attempt is real. The individualism expressed illustrates such condition - rather well. On way to see it... is that there is no moving forward in humanity without differences and argument. Getting along perfectly is ultimately the death of us all - the death of any human future. Recognizing this is both good and bad. It may be that the more equal or balanced this difference (even in this ’self awareness’), the better off we are. And it being debatable is a good thing, a core thing, a required thing. Uglies are necessary, it turns out....without it we’re dead in the water. Ouch. |
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