I may try that
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tzh21y, PVC is an electron magnet. It is very difficult to stop it from collecting them under normal record playing conditions. The best you can do is discharge them while the record is playing with the device I mention about. It costs a whopping $20 and will definitively end you problem unless you want to be like the gingerbread man and give your record a Zerostat squirt every 15 seconds while the record is playing:) |
I was not being theoretical lewm. If I were I would say something like, "I think" this that or the other thing. I would let it be known then usually I would come up with some way to try and prove it, an experiment. Great that you did further research. That is what I do when I bump into a controversy I seem to be part of like when I screwed up saying record vinyl was nothing more than PVC and Carbon black even though this is what I was told at a record pressing plant 20 some odd years ago. In this case I was relaying sound scientific fact which I think you discovered after doing what a smart person would do, a little research. It is a tricky subject because there are so many variables involved like what kind of mat you are using, that static seems to do different things to different people. Now please do yourself a favor and get one of these, https://www.sleevecityusa.com/Antistatic-Record-Cleaning-Arm-p/tac-01.htm and banish static from your records forever and I am not being facetious. A big $20. I have absolutely nothing to do with the company. A few tips. I bend the end of the shaft behind the finger lift so that the brush is exactly perpendicular to the record. It tracks better this way. It has this silly balance weight that slides up and down the shaft. I slide it all the way to the brush end and crazy glue it in place then I use the counter weight to balance the thing. I put a bit of low strength Loc-tite on the threads. The brush should be very light on the record. Mike |
What should it do for me? What are you trying to say? Is this in support of the notion that the stylus rubbing on the vinyl causes static charge accumulation? I disagree that this is a major cause, only because it appeared after reading the Shure white paper on static that the authors had actually done the experiments and shown that while there is some enhancement of charge due to playing the LP, it’s minimal relative to other causes and minimal relative to the amount of charge that maximally can accumulate on an LP. I asked you to provide contrary evidence, not contrary theory. You may be correct, for all I know, but I do know what the Shure paper shows. So far, from you I have theory only. Your declaration that Shure is “wrong” is not really enough to convince me. I will give you this: Subjectively, it seems to me that charge is enhanced after playing the LP. However, the Shure paper would suggest that the tendency of the LP to want to stick to the mat or the crackle I sometimes hear upon lifting the LP off the mat is caused by the static charge re-distributing itself over both surfaces of the LP, not necessarily due to new charge on the LP. After further research, I am beginning to think Mijo is correct. Case closed. |
kcleveland, in my last post I mentioned that paper will not except electrons so it will not remove static from PVC whereas some plastics will. So the paper sleeves seem to cause more static only because they are not removing any(electrons) from the record so the record comes out of the paper sleeve with as much static as it went in. Plastic sleeves discharge the record so when you take your record out of the sleeve it has less static. The old companies knew this and lined their paper sleeves with plastic. Taking the record in and out of the sleeve does not cause static. The sleeve is not in intimate enough contact to initiate the triboelectric effect. Google it! |
mijostyn Yes geometry is in part responsible for skating. It is called the OFFSET ANGLE ...I’m glad that you understand that, because it isn’t what you previously stated: Why does a tonearm skate? ... What does geometry have to do with it? VTF maybe.As for this: I suggest that while you are listening to music you stand right in front of your turntable and give it a Zerostat squirt every 15 seconds.I don’t need a Zerostat because I don’t have a problem with static while playing LPs. Dress like a Mexican Bandit and smoke a big cigar.Will you please explain what that means? I can’t make any sense out of it at all. |
Lewm, thank you for butting in. Static electricity forms when electrons are transferred from one item to another. For this to happen one item must be non conductive (vinyl). If you look up the triboelectric series PVC is almost at the bottom of the negative side. PVC loves to collect electrons. Transferring electrons requires intimate contact and is aided by friction and heat.(rubbing your feet on the carpet). The tonearm being grounded is a fabulous source of electrons. The stylus with some several thousand PSI of pressure is in extremely intimate contact with the PVC and the spinning turntable provide the friction and heat to make it a great static manufacturing system. The charge migrates quickly across the surface of the record but not the label! Which is why a grounded spindle won't help. If you go back to the triboelectric series paper is a little bit to the positive side. It is a weak electron donor. It will not accept a negative charge. I hope that does it for you. |
geoffkait, are you ever inquisitive enough to research subjects that you don't quite understand? I suggest you put your student hat on and read about Newtonian Physics which you should have had in high school. While you are at it you can read about static electricity, why and how it is formed. All I am going to tell you at this point is that you are comically wrong on all accounts and that it seems impossible for any of us to straighten you out even with evidence from other sources. We obviously have a serious problem with our educational system. Cleeds, ..........naw, just a waste of time. |
Geoff, as regards the skating force, you are either joking or very wrong. What happens on a blank area of vinyl is not a lot different from what happens when the stylus is tracing a groove. Friction and lack of tangency. You can call the skating force a “centripetal force” if you want because in the loose sense of the term, it is. |
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Carbon fiber brush and anti static sleeves work well for me. Exactly, been using carbon fibre brush for 23 years and zerostat gun for 15 years, never had an issue with static on many turntables with many cartridges. Very simple and very useful devices, normally i don't even need a gun, but in worst situation this device will solve the problem. |
The tendency of the stylus and cartridge to be forced inward on a blank section (for which their is virtually no friction) of the record illustrates that friction is not the driving force, it’s the centripetal force. In the case I just described of the blank section, the force of friction is actually toward the outer edge of the record. The innermost side of the groove wears faster than the outermost side if there is no anti-skate mechanism. That’s due to the centripetal force. As I already said, the force of friction due to the stylus riding along the groove is tangent to the direction of motion toward the center. So the force of friction has no inward vector. Hel-loo! This is an obvious case of monkey see, monkey do. 🐒 🐒 🐒 |
https://www.maplatine.com/en/content/267-how-do-you-reduce-static-electricity-on-records- Good advice. Carbon fiber brush and anti static sleeves work well for me. Had a Zerostat back in the day. It worked. I’ll buy the theory that the different cart configurations result in static electricity being conducted away to different extents. |
The primary cause of the skating force is the friction force between the stylus and the modulated groove. A skating force is generated because of two factors: (1) the headshell offset angle, and (2) lack of tangency to the groove, which pertains everywhere across the surface of an LP except at the two null points that are created if one follows any of the accepted alignment algorithms. At the two null points, the cantilever is tangent to the groove, but because of headshell offset, a skating force is generated. Thus, there is always a skating force all across the surface of the LP, although it is constantly varying in magnitude. These conditions apply to all pivoted tonearms that are mounted such that the stylus overhangs the pivot and which also have headshell offset. By the way, centripetal or centrifugal force has NOTHING to do with the skating force. The primary cause of static charge build up on an LP is NOT the friction between the stylus and the groove. Those are my only points. Mijo, if you have data to dispute the second statement, let’s see it. |
Cleeds, are you really that ------? The record is moving. Yes geometry is in part responsible for skating. It is called the OFFSET ANGLE. The energy that drives the skating is the friction that pulls the tonearm towards the center of the record. Once more. Zerostats work but as soon as you start playing the record static will build up fast then dust is drawn to the record so your stylus can grind it into the groove. Now, according to geoffkait with two fs, this makes the record sound better. Then he can transfer the dust laden staticey record to the sleeve which will now stick to the record. You have to discharge the record while it is playing. geoffkait with two fs, I suggest that while you are listening to music you stand right in front of your turntable and give it a Zerostat squirt every 15 seconds. Good exercise for your hand. Better yet you could get two Zerostats, one for each hand. Dress like a Mexican Bandit and smoke a big cigar. For those of you who don't want to act like geoffkait with two fs get one of these for $20 and put an end to your problem. https://www.sleevecityusa.com/Antistatic-Record-Cleaning-Arm-p/tac-01.htm. Even cleeds will be able to install one of these. chakster I'm not so sure. |
mijostyn The tone arm is not subject to centripetal force because it is not moving.If your pickup arm is not moving, then static charges are the least of your worries. Why does a tonearm skate? ... What does geometry have to do with it? VTF maybe.Geometry has everything to do with skating forces. For example, a linear tangential tracking arm suffers from no skating force at all. What exactly do you think accounts for that as compared to a pivoted arm? |
Why not just uze Zerostat before you play any record ? Did you ever try ? First advise in this thread is the best! |
OK geoffkait, you are either kidding or totally out to lunch. Anybody care to comment on which it might be? Anybody care to make a comment on why tonearms skate? I can't bear it. Somebody out there might even believe him! The tone arm is not subject to centripetal force because it is not moving. If Geoff were sitting on the record spinning with it he would be subjected to centripetal force and who knows, might do him some good. Tonearms skate to the middle of the record. Because the tonearm is offset (bent) friction of the stylus in the groove pulls the arm towards the center causing the stylus to lean on the left channel (inside groove). This tendency is counteracted by the anti skating device. This friction also generates thousands of volts of static electricity in just a few minutes. Pulling records in and out of sleeves does not generate static electricity. It is transferred to the sleeve from a hyper charged record and maybe by somebody like geoffkait who is full of static. |
Lewm, I think you miss read that. Yes they do mention moving records in and out of sleeves could cause static but it does not. You are only transferring static to the sleeve from a charged record. The amount of rubbing/friction is no where near enough. Again I encourage you to read why friction and heat cause static charges on non conductive objects. It will mean more if you get it from someone other than me. Oh and the Shure brush was attached to the plastic housing of the stylus body. It was not grounded and made things worse not to mention what it did to the skating force. I threw mine away. Thanx for the support sleepwalker65. I still have some hair left. On the bright side static is not even remotely my problem. My records have none. You can lead a horse to water..... |
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another easy way to dissipate an electric charge is using a carbon brush that has a grounding cable on it. Oracle (the record player co)made a model years ago not sure if there are others out there, but my oracle brush works wonders to remove static before playing. Audioquest has a new brush that's supposed to address this issue of a ground path. |
Mijo, I am not sure what bone you are picking with Geoff, but the very same Shure publication you cited has a section on static. There you will find some real experimental results, some of them showing that friction between stylus and vinyl is NOT a significant cause of static electric charge on LPs. The mere act of removing an LP from its sleeve is much more to blame. As is “us”, the shoes we wear, the carpets we walk on, etc. The Shure article mentions use of electrically conductive vinyl as a preventive measure, but few LPs are made from such material; I think RCA Dynagroove may have been conductive. Also, when you discharge the surface of an LP you are about to play, that charge is merely shifted to the down-side of the LP. When you then remove the LP from the platter mat, the crackling sound that can be heard is the charge re-distributing itself over both surfaces. Shure incorporated a brush into some versions of the V15 that removed static ahead of the path of the stylus; that’s why I suggest that the reason for the OP’s finding with two different cartridges might have something to do with how they are constructed, whether there is a path from the cartridge into the tonearm to drain static charge, etc. |
And, because I know how stubborn you are geoffkait, if you don't believe Shure maybe The Last Factory will do. https://thelastfactory.com/last-record-preservative/how-do-i-get-rid-of-static-on-vinyl-records-i-e-static-cling/ |
Geoffkait, you have to be kidding. I must be that gullible. Why does a tonearm skate? Oh I suppose you are one of those that does not believe in anti skating. What does geometry have to do with it? VTF maybe. Does a turntable belt rub against the record? This must be an alternative universe.
https://www.shure.com/en-US/support/find-an-answer/stylus-wear-and-record-wear Read the paragraph entitled "Dust and Grit" and by all means read the whole thing. It is a must read for vinyl junkies. |
I’m no expert in these matters, but from my day to day experience static build up has nothing to do with the cartridge or even the plateau material or grounding. It all depends on the record itself. I use three different turntables with copper, rubber, leather and/or cork mats and over 20 different cartridges and it’s ALWAYS the same discs that are static. I really have no idea why, but my guess is it has something to do with either the vinyl compound or the manufacturing process. The most annoying static occurs with those thin 70’s and 80’s pressings (Philips and DGG seem to be the worst offenders) and modern reissues. Pressings from the 50’s and 60’s are rarely a problem. One more reason why I prefer these pressings. BTW all my records go through the same cleaning procedure and are all stored in the same Nagaoka anti-static inner sleeves. |
mijostyn Wow, guys, anybody here know how a Van de Graaff generator works? What do you do when you want to shock your little sister....hows about rub your feet on the carpet. I’ll leave it to you science nerds to look up why FRICTION causes static. Now I wonder where the friction is in a record playing system. >>>>>Oh, you mean like the platter belt friction? Or maybe you mean the friction between the air molecules and the vinyl? I hope you don’t mean the stylus friction which is very low as long as geometry is correct. |
