mambacfa, in the case of industrial machinery you are trying to isolate everything else from the vibrating machine. Listening to the machine vibrate is not the objective. I think that is quite different from a device that is intentionally either producing or reading vibration that has to be transferred in an accurate way. The reader has to be protected from all other vibration in the environment and the producer has to be locked in space so that it does not produce any unwanted vibration.
No Flatblackround. I think he is doing cocaine. That produces zero stiffness:) |
Springs are THE solution for controlling vibration from machinery in commercial applications. I have found these to be more effective in platform applications as compared to ball bearing solutions, which was the case with my Garrard 401, which has its plinth sitting on a platform. |
They make little blue pills to deal with zero stiffness.......so I’ve been told.
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"When correct implementation of zero stiffness on loudspeakers is administered, there is no question of the superiority of this engineering practice on the voicing of the loudspeaker." (rixthetrick)
rixthetrick, What is zero stiffness? That is a term I have never heard before. How is superior when it comes to "voicing" a loudspeaker. |
@mijostyn, is there any particular thing that I wrote that you question,
or the entirety of my post? I mean if it's only a couple of statements, I might take the time to find evidences, however, you're welcome to dispel and write it off with no further regard.
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@mijostyn - oh yes, you're absolutely correct. And you should totally ignore anything I say unless I can produce a peer reviewed paper on the subject.
You should also ignore isolation devices and stick to your guns.
Cheerio old chap.
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Good noromance. Just don't sneeze:) Lewm is absolutely correct. For a driver to do its job correctly it has to be held rigidly in space. Any spurious vibration of the driver is distortion. The problem really does not become critical until you get down in the bass frequencies. There are several ways of dealing with this. First would be making the cabinet very heavy and stiff. Second would be spiking the cabinet to a very solid floor and third would be using counterforce design with the woofers. Best would be all three together. Putting springs or foam under loudspeakers is 180 degrees the wrong way to go. There is a huge difference in requirement for a device that is designed to pick up vibrations and a device designed to produce them.
Yes! Increasingly, manufacturers are making enclosures out of aluminum billet. And then there's granite, Acora reviewed this month in Absolute Sound. They're designed to stay put. This is also why front baffles are often heroically over-engineered. And what if the springs themselves start resonating? |
Mahgister, I have decided that there is absolutely no way to explain anything with you. The explaining in audio made sense AFTER an experiment....Audio is NOT electronic design only but encompass many fields of science in one game... Explaining BEFORE an experiment is only most of the times pontificating... I only want to reach High-End with basic average good elements in a controlled environment.... Is it possible? Yes.....Why ? Audio is more akin to acoustic than to electronics.... My simple concept of the 3 embeddings is my way to describe the conditions we must put in place to reach S.Q. No sellers will sell you Audiophile experience, you must work, but it is easy when you know the direction to go..... I am not knowledgeable and hand crafty at all....I was only good in my work to explain books to people....But if i can, anybody can.... But we must be a little creative for sure.... My deepest regards to you.... « Ears are the sound trying to explain itself»- Groucho Marx |
Mahgister, I have decided that there is absolutely no way to explain anything with you. You are an inexplicable force of nature. You are however entitled to do anything you want with your system even if it leaves several of us scratching our heads. You are certainly not alone in this regard. Millercarbon comes in a close second. You guys keep us on our toes:) |
rixthetrick, and on what science to you base this rather floral opinion on? |
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@mwinkc Try them and report back. I noted one respondent said they heard no difference with the springs under the turntable in their modest system. I wonder is it only noticeable on more resolving systems? I've two more sets coming tomorrow which will allow me to test them under my monoblocks and second turntable. It's going to be a long weekend. |
Thanks for starting a timely discussion. I put the nobsound springs in my shopping cart last weekend because they looked interesting. I was going to look for reviews, opinions online before pulling the trigger. If there are any left, I'll have to try a few sets! |
lewm, Its okay. I’ve known for quite some time now there are people its just not worth trying to explain anything to. As others have lectured me, its not your forum, you don’t get to tell anyone what to do. On the other foot, the shoe, eh? |
@mahgister
I suspect variables related to the success of decoupling speakers include the floor (i.e., concrete or suspended wood), the weight of the speakers, the stiffness and resonant frequency of the speaker box, the force generated by the drivers (i.e., larger woofers create more back pressure than smaller midrange or mid-woofer drivers), whether the speaker design is acoustic suspension or bass reflex, if and how the speakers are mounted on stands, the weight distribution of the speakers (i.e., heavier in the front?), and other variables.
I suspect factors affecting the decoupling medium include stiffness, number of coils, and degree of compression (if using springs), pressure, volume, and elasticity (if using an air bladder), hardness and elastic properties (if using an elastomeric material), and the ability of the medium to decouple in the horizontal plane as well as the vertical plane.
Manufacturers of things like spring supports, air bladders, and elastic support materials often give weight ranges to help customers select the right product but it would be very difficult to precisely account for all variables. This may partially account for differences in the degree and types of improvement heard by listeners using decoupling devices. Since most report hearing positive changes, it is probably a case of close enough being good enough. |
If the speakers are correctly isolated, suspended, then the larger transients that produce energy storage in the cabinets, aught to deform the isolation device through a broad frequency range.
Correctly implemented the high frequencies aught to clean up as does lower frequencies, the cabinet swells and contracts as it will, but relative to the substrate, the goal is to have it’s center of gravity to remain as motionless as possible relative to the substrate.
When correct implementation of zero stiffness on loudspeakers is administered, there is no question of the superiority of this engineering practice on the voicing of the loudspeaker.
Please go ahead and try it, you may just realise a significant bump in performance for what is relatively one of the cheapest upgrades possible.
In correctly isolating using compression springs, (obviously not an issue if hanging from springs), the center of gravity can without a great deal of force, be moved across and outside the base. Short squat sub woofers are much less prone to being knocked over and damaged than speakers where the center of gravity is higher over a narrow base.
The springs themselves, under compression should also have a centralized load bearing low relative to it’s base, unless constrained as in the spring array mentioned above. I generalise that the diameter aught to be close to the final load height of a compression spring for the sake of stability, in this particular use.
The more rigid the substrate, the higher percentage of energies will deform the isolation device, such as a spring. I choose springs because of their broad range of isolation, relatively inexpensive, and easily acquired.
Correct spring rates and geometry are not hard to find, as springs are the most commonly used broad range isolation devices used worldwide.
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mitch2
Thanks for the book recommendation....
My best...
The physics is complex yes...
But in a word springs isolate the box from the external vibrations, then there is no more resonance between the 2 speakers in the same room...In my case on the same desk....
Internal resonance are probably less enhanced and decreased without any external influence to amplify them...
This is not the explanation for sure just my 2 cents.... I am not a physicist....
No doubt in my mind that with the right compression applied(i tried 3 rate) it is simple for the ears to discern the best compression , too damping weight on the springs and the sound is warmish or muddy, not enough damping weight and the sound is too bright or too harsh...
Right amount and all is improved on all frequencies...
This is audibly evident.... My ears rarely doubt...Perhaps they are easily deluded but they never doubt... :)
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I'm guessing you're hearing more air around the instruments? Those likely are resonances we seek to eliminate.
First thing I thought of. I know where you are coming from. But the sound quality is improved at low volume too. My rig is pretty solid and heavy in the right parts. Environment is concrete. Instruments are precisely focused and tiny details are more apparent without glare or blur. I think your guess may be incorrect. Thanks. |
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How do you explain my results with springs under speakers? with more clear bass and a better mid range and extension in the higher frequencies... My system is already electrically and acoustically controlled and sensible... It is not first a physics question, it is a simple experiment to do.... For the physics wait for a physicist who knows speakers design.... :) Repeating a Newton equation like a mantra is not an experiment that take few minutes to do.... My ears tell me more about speakers on springs now, than any equation.... :) Instead of arguing it seems more wise to try it.....Especially if more than one has vouched for it..... But if you want to know if some physicist think that springs under speakers are a good idea, there is some equations here for you, i presume this physicist already know Newton equation.... :) Vibration Isolation System For Near Field Speakers In Sound Recording Studio http://www.sea-acustica.es/fileadmin/INTERNOISE_2019/Fchrs/Proceedings/2155.pdf |
Miller, Stop trying to teach me physics. You can do whatever you like for whatever reason makes sense to you. I will persist in believing that putting speakers on springs or sorbothane pucks is NOT a good idea. "Vibrations" and their control is a subject for cabinet designers and the like. If you put the best cabinet in the world on springs, you will still magnify problems that are specifically due to the fact that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, in Newtonian mechanics. Moreso manifest in the bass region than in the treble, as Mijo says.
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I'm guessing you're hearing more air around the instruments? Those likely are resonances we seek to eliminate.
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Good noromance. Just don't sneeze:) Lewm is absolutely correct. For a driver to do its job correctly it has to be held rigidly in space. Any spurious vibration of the driver is distortion. The problem really does not become critical until you get down in the bass frequencies. There are several ways of dealing with this. First would be making the cabinet very heavy and stiff. Second would be spiking the cabinet to a very solid floor and third would be using counterforce design with the woofers. Best would be all three together. Putting springs or foam under loudspeakers is 180 degrees the wrong way to go. There is a huge difference in requirement for a device that is designed to pick up vibrations and a devise designed to produce them. |
That's exactly what we're talking about, putting them on springs.
The subject of your post, drivers going back and forth, that motion is included in all the other vibrations. If this goes off in a different but related direction maybe that's because its in the nature of vibration to not be confined to any one single motion. Nothing really ever just vibrates only back and forth. Its just not that simple. |
"Its not just the drivers going back and forth either." But that was the only subject of my post. You've gone off in a related but different direction. Otherwise, why don't we just hang woofers and/or subwoofer cabinets in free air, from strings or springs?
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Suggest reading Barry Diament research paper to start.
Seismic isolation is essential and often overlooked. Suggest Ingress cup and rollers/slate platform/vertical isolation such as metal spring or inner tube. Townshend products are good as well. Stay away from points and rubber of any kind. Any material change will alter the sound but not always in a good way. |
Correct, in this type of situation it is difficult to hand Q the record. This is one resaon the SOTA tables are so nice.
@mijostyn The springs have settled and my hand has become gentler after my initial comment on bounce. I can cue fine now! |
Right, lewm, and that was my objection as well. Problem is, the speaker is going to move and vibrate anyway. There's no stopping it. Its not just the drivers going back and forth either. The drivers create pressure changes inside and outside the cabinet, this gets the whole speaker cabinet vibrating like a balloon with air rapidly being pumped in and out of it.
All this vibration is going on no matter what we put the speakers on. Even if we take the kenjit approach and mount them in 80 feet of solid concrete all that does is change the frequency and amplitude of the vibrations. Nothing ever really gets rid of them. Can't be done.
But if the speakers, or anything else, is rigidly on the floor, well then those same vibrations transmit a lot more readily into the floor, and the floor gets excited and vibrates, and those vibrations go everywhere. Some of them come right back up into the speaker causing it to rock slightly. This produces the ringing you can see on the seismograph in the Townshend video. Some of it also goes through the floor, the rack, and all the way to the turntable.
I thought no way this happens with my 750 lbs rack of solid concrete, granite, sand bed, and BDR carbon fiber. But it does. Proved that by putting springs under subs and hearing the midrange clean up. Only way that can happen is what I just said.
So its like I've been saying all along, its about vibration control. We can control it one way with cones and mass and rigid solutions and that can certainly help sound a lot better. But we can also suspend things that vibrate in a way that lets each thing vibrate in its own particular way with less of it feeding into all the other things we have that are vibrating.
All this stuff is vibrating. Put your hand on a speaker cable while playing music some time. You will be shocked how much it vibrates. Especially if there's any bass. That's probably why the rubber band trick works so well. Its free. Try it and see. |
I’m not about to argue with whatever one wants to try putting under one’s turntable, but I think there is a "logical" argument against putting springs or anything spongy (e.g., sorbothane) under speakers. The amplifier is putting energy into the speaker drivers. Ideally you want all that energy to be converted into the motion of the drivers, so as to capture the nuances of the music signal as much as that is possible. If the speaker cabinet is sitting on a surface that can move, then inevitably (as in Newton’s Third Law of motion) some of the energy of the signal delivered from the amplifier is converted into motion of the cabinet, rather than into motion of the driver cone. That can’t be a good thing.
An argument that seems logical do not equal an experiment... Have you ever try sorbothane in the right condition? No more than springs i think, no? «I can state flatly that heavier than air flying machines are impossible.» — Lord Kelvin, 1895 one of the greatest scientist of not only his time but of all time also ... «It is apparent to me that the possibilities of the aeroplane, which two or three years ago were thought to hold the solution to the [flying machine] problem, have been exhausted, and that we must turn elsewhere.» — Thomas Edison, November 1895 I will not add that i myself use springs under my speakers, and i will not confirm that this is a great increase in clarity... Nothing of the sort, because this is my opinion but after my own experiment indeed... And someone will come with some concept only looking sound and will contradict reality.... I will keep silent and smile listening music.... «Opinions were for Plato entertaining illusions in a cave, is it not TV ?» -Groucho Marx |
I'm not about to argue with whatever one wants to try putting under one's turntable, but I think there is a "logical" argument against putting springs or anything spongy (e.g., sorbothane) under speakers. The amplifier is putting energy into the speaker drivers. Ideally you want all that energy to be converted into the motion of the drivers, so as to capture the nuances of the music signal as much as that is possible. If the speaker cabinet is sitting on a surface that can move, then inevitably (as in Newton's Third Law of motion) some of the energy of the signal delivered from the amplifier is converted into motion of the cabinet, rather than into motion of the driver cone. That can't be a good thing.
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David Fletcher and Geoff would be proud. And one only need to look to Cheyenne Mountain to understand mass is never a singular answer.
you can spring your walls also , see Rettinger. @noromance so glad to hear your renewed joy ! |
Does anyone know if Nobsound fixed the manufacturing defects in the spring assembly production?
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Interesting discussion on damping and isolation.
I am going to buy some Nobusound springs to experiment with on some components
Currently my Garrard 301 plinth is on Nordost SortFut footers and sits on a Vibraplane. The combination of the SortFut draining mechanical vibration from the turntable into the massive Vibraplane combined with external vibration isolation from the Vibraplane, results in a great presentation.
The Vibraplane is on a heavy wooden rack which sits on engineered wood over concrete foundation |
I bought those springs months ago. I put them under my TT and did not hear any significant difference. I did notice my TT became a little unstable and would skip if I accidentally bumped into my cabinet. Since I owned them at this point, I experimented and tried them on other equipment. My only noticeable difference was on my sub woofer, everything seemed a little clearer and the bass is tighter. That's where I left them.
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+1 indranilsen - Solid-tech & Townshend were pioneers, and are now being copied, probably cheap Chinese knock offs.
Next level is AMG toppers, or similar technology TMD dampers for the cabinets, in conjunction with isolation for speakers.
My next big thing is quasi-zero stiffness on my stand mounts.
There's no real shortcut here, it's going to require engineering and more math study to get this correct, and look pretty.
My previous employer has used isolation under turntables for over 30 years, and still manufactures mass loaded shelves with springs.
Happy experimenting, I am enjoying the sounds too!
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i dont own a turntable...
But i know first hand how vibrations can kill sound...
My speakers are on my desk and all my other gear parts...
My "sandwiches" of different materials were good (quartz/granite/ bamboo/ sorbothane/ cork) but not enough it seems, adding springs under the speakers(i keep the sandwiches under the spring tough, makes an audible clarity increased...
A turntable is so sensible, like a little seismograph, than imagining driving it without special precautions against vibrations is illusory and vouching for disaster S.Q.
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Noromance, If it is bouncing less than three times a second you are fine. You can use the same springs all round but you have to locate the center of mass and place them equidistant from that point unfortunately a tricky thing to do. If you use springs of unequal rates and they do not bounce at the same speed you can create an unstable situation. Correct, in this type of situation it is difficult to hand Q the record. This is one resaon the SOTA tables are so nice. The hung suspension is inside the plinth so you can put a hand down on it. you can even rap the plinth with a hammer no problem. Designs like the SME you have to use the Q device.
If you think this sounds better you may want to consider a carefully engineered product like the MinusK stand or the SOTA turntable.
Many of us know for a fact it sounds better including Michael Fremer who puts his $100K turntable on a MinusK stand. he designer of that turntable now has a MinusK stand built into his turntables! |
Just bought a spring company.
Gonna get rich !!!!!! |
Sucks the life and dynamics. Still, has its uses. I put use a small amount in a few places to tame granite ringing. Sorbothane is in general too dampening unless maybe to tame too much hardness, etch, glare, ringing, etc. |
Really interesting discussion, I have experimented alot with sorbothane feets. Works well under speakers and turntable, sub , tubeamp . Think I'm gonna order some springs and compare....
Anyone else tried sorbothane ? And if what's your impression. |
@noromance- A few tips on using the Nobsound springs. This unit is a clone of a much expensive item called Iso Black manufactured by a Swedish company Solid Tech. Here is the URL: https://www.solid-tech.net/isoblack/. They used to have a manual which documented the most effective layout of the springs when you are not using all 7 springs. You can download a copy of that manual from the Audio Advisor website who is one of the Solid Tech dealers in the US. Here is the link: https://www.audioadvisor.com/pdf/SolidTech_Isoclear_Application_Instructions.pdf. Follow these layouts for the maximum performance. Also be careful about putting the black rubber mat on top/bottom of the aluminum discs. In my case they added too much damping effect to the sound. You might want to try the discs w/o the black mat first and use it only if there is any audible ringing. Hope that helps. Thanks. |
No idea, Indra. Concrete floors and walls in basement. But I am literally hearing stuff I didn't know was there.
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@noromance- Glad to hear the improvements that you are getting out of the springs. Does it provide isolation against footfalls/subsonic frequency band?
Thanks |
@indranilsen Thank you. It's sounding so good now that I'm noy going to change it! However, I'm going to try them under another the platform of turntable when I get more Nobsound sets. |
Hello,I have been experimenting with springs for sometime and I have the Nobsound springs/disks as well. What is important here, in my opinion, is to get the correct set of springs that for a given load bring the resonant frequency of the platform with the load to below 5 hz. Without that you are likely not going to get much benefit although they might sound better than any tightly coupled solution.
Also you have to pay attention to asymmetrical load distribution of the component which would require different set of springs under the platform. I prefer putting the springs underneath the platform instead of directly coupling to the component because that allows you to design isolation in the horizontal/rotational directions on the platform like roller bearings.
The good news is that none of these challenges are insurmountable if you have time to experiment. In the end I agree with you all that isolating your audio/video components and addressing the seismic vibration challenge is the way to go...Thanks.
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"What is going on?"
You’re decoupling from floor bourne, mechanical, and acoustical vibrations. |
@millercarbon Can't wait to hear what you think.
Percussion is spectacular. Julie London on mono from 1966 can't be mono!!
One small downside. Poor recordings are laid out in their inadequacies.
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This is insane. Sound is getting better as they bed in OR as I acclimate to the new presentation. It's the delicacy thats amazing. Like going from an okay MM to a superb MC. It's also showing me that I was wrong about the limits of the Garrard/Decca as being a touch shy and rough and ready in the upper range. Nope. This is see-through detail. Best part is that the music isn't sharp and seering - it's warm and beautiful and very detailed.
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I've always been a cones and rigidity man. Me too! Everything on BDR. Everything! https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367Even so I always was aware of the drawbacks, just never thought this could possibly be the solution. Did not help AT ALL that the least credible biggest joker in all of audio was pushing springs. Oh well. Under the bridge. Put springs under the subs last night. Not all the subs just the 3 closest to the turntable. Replaced BDR Cones with springs. At first was like, well this is underwhelming. Bass was maybe a bit better, but also maybe a bit less. Probably because eliminating bass being transmitted through the floor leaves only bass in the air. So it feels different. Which makes sense. But then, wait a minute, what the.... midrange presence, top end extension, holy crap the springs under the subs just massively cleaned up everything else and the detail is so much more natural and amazing! Al Stewart isn't just singing he is RIGHT THERE in freaking person! My cones and rigidity thinking had me convinced that my 750 lb rack of solid concrete, granite and sand was impervious to acoustic and even mechanical energy. Evidently not! Not even close! The subs are putting out the same acoustic energy. More. I turned em up! The only logical explanation is mechanical vibrations from the subs had been transmitted through the floor to the rack and right through its 750lbs all the way to the turntable. Crazy! Why this works has to be what Max Townshend says in his video. Look at a record, the light pattern tells you there's sub-micron scale squiggles. These unbelievably small details are where the sense of 3D placement and room size acoustics are. They're easily blurred over by even the slightest vibration. That's what I'm hearing. That's what noromance is hearing: - Lots more detail - I can hear more of the acoustic, inner detail, deeper stage.
- Tiny details more obvious - like listening to records all over again
- Speakers are totally GONE
My Nobsound springs are coming Friday. It sounds so good already, can hardly wait to hear with springs under the table. |
@mijostyn It is bouncy - I have to use the arm lift. But it settles in about 1.5 seconds. The plinth/401 is heavy. I can't use the same type of spring as the weight distribution is not equal.
I am only going by "does it sound better or worse?" |
