Anybody want to comment on the original Joachim Gerhard designed audio physic speakers? I believe they fall into camp of (I wouldn't say dirt cheap), but relatively inexpensive drivers (no diamond or berriliuyn tweeters here), and always achieved amazing sound outright, let alone for the price. Perhaps a good example of the whole being FAR MORE than the sum of the parts?
Speakers in the 5-6K$ region & their components
Hi all,
This is my 1st post here.
I'm a long time audio enthusiast and even worked in high-end audio sales for a few years a while back, but I've been out of the loop for a few years now. I'm looking now for a new pair of speakers in the 5-6K$ range to replace my current Merlin TSM. The type I'm looking for is a 2 way 6-6.5'' speaker, preferably a floorstander. I know many brands and models and went through a lot of speakers in the past, so my question is a technical one:
I'm looking only for speakers in this range which use high end componenets. which ones are there?
I've already done some research, so here are a few examples of what I mean:
Proac in its response range is using Scanspeak D2604 tweeter (48$/unit).
PMC in its "i" series - Seas 27TFFC (45$/unit).
Spendor, "A" series - Seas 29TFF/W (52$/unit).
I can go on and also bring examples of the woofers used and more speaker brands, but I think the picture is clear. These are all quality units of well acclaimed manufacturers, but are by no means high-end units. Which are?
My research brought me this far to the following (All in my price range):
Kudos audio Super 10/Super20: Seas T29CF-002 tweeter (330$/unit) + a version of Seas W18NX (196$/unit)
Marten Form Floor: Accuton C173-6-095 woofer (over 300$/unit) + a ribbon tweeter I was unable to recognize (anyone?)
Merlin VSM (as second hand only): Dynaudio D330/A tweeter (over 400$ per unit) + Scanspeak 18W/8545-01 (173$/unit).
BTW, my current Merlin TSM is using Morel MDT30 tweeter (80$/unit) + Morel MW166 woofer (124$/unit) and sounds wonderful to my taste, despite a considerable lack of bass (being a sealed- box design).
So, given all that, does anyone have any more ideas for speakers I should consider?
This is my 1st post here.
I'm a long time audio enthusiast and even worked in high-end audio sales for a few years a while back, but I've been out of the loop for a few years now. I'm looking now for a new pair of speakers in the 5-6K$ range to replace my current Merlin TSM. The type I'm looking for is a 2 way 6-6.5'' speaker, preferably a floorstander. I know many brands and models and went through a lot of speakers in the past, so my question is a technical one:
I'm looking only for speakers in this range which use high end componenets. which ones are there?
I've already done some research, so here are a few examples of what I mean:
Proac in its response range is using Scanspeak D2604 tweeter (48$/unit).
PMC in its "i" series - Seas 27TFFC (45$/unit).
Spendor, "A" series - Seas 29TFF/W (52$/unit).
I can go on and also bring examples of the woofers used and more speaker brands, but I think the picture is clear. These are all quality units of well acclaimed manufacturers, but are by no means high-end units. Which are?
My research brought me this far to the following (All in my price range):
Kudos audio Super 10/Super20: Seas T29CF-002 tweeter (330$/unit) + a version of Seas W18NX (196$/unit)
Marten Form Floor: Accuton C173-6-095 woofer (over 300$/unit) + a ribbon tweeter I was unable to recognize (anyone?)
Merlin VSM (as second hand only): Dynaudio D330/A tweeter (over 400$ per unit) + Scanspeak 18W/8545-01 (173$/unit).
BTW, my current Merlin TSM is using Morel MDT30 tweeter (80$/unit) + Morel MW166 woofer (124$/unit) and sounds wonderful to my taste, despite a considerable lack of bass (being a sealed- box design).
So, given all that, does anyone have any more ideas for speakers I should consider?
84 responses Add your response
I have owned a pair of Golden Ear Triton 1's for @ a year now. I believe for the money they are a great value! You owe it to yourself to listen to them. I love the staging. They also are very revealing. Vocals,piano,sax and cymbals all sounded wonderful to me. I don't have expensive equipment and the Triton1's sound blows me away. It's like all new music. |
Important to note here, the cost of a driver does not indicate how good it sounds. In many/most cases the technology they use is suspect. Example what are the sonic benefits of diamond coated diaphragms. What is so great sounding about ribbon tweeters, plasma tweeters? So expensive drivers don't necessarily sound great or even better. I think to many speakers today are forward and lean. The audio industry is trying to convince us that is what we should fall in love with. Count my out. |
Over the past 30 or so years, I've had and auditioned many very nice speakers - electrostatic, ribbon and box - the Quad ESL 63s one of my favorites. When I downsized my environment, I went on the search to find something in a small package that would sound as much like real music as the Quads. After much evaluation, for a two way dynamic speaker, I found few dynamic speakers that sounded less boxy and more like real live music (in spite of it' low $,2000.00 price tag) than the Gershman Chameleon. Because of my long time love of electrostats and ribbons and now with a bit more room, I now have a set of Magie 1.7s and possibly upgrading to the 3.7is, but for a very musical 2 way un-boxy box with very good detail, decent base and convincing stage - check out the little Gershmans. Regards, Jim |
Sounds real is right, but kind of. My impression is a little different. For any given type of technology, Be or AMT or whatever, there are excellent and crappy versions. In and of themselves, diamond or Be tweeters are not all that. Still, there are great versions of each. As was mentioned before though, the truth is for commercial designs, the quality of parts in the crossover may or may not be all that. As far as I can tell, with few exceptions, the speaker prices are often set solely on driver cost. Since that's true, there's usually very little cause to spend a lot in the crossover. Also, some one mentioned upgrading crossover parts as a good idea. While I often recommend it, I've seen a lot of commercial speakers with really wonky crossovers that, while they would benefit from a better tweeter cap, really desperately need a new crossover design. Best, Erik |
Some one mentioned Chapman Audio speakers. I heard them at he RMAF a couple years ago. Very, very nice. Relaxed but still involving. A small company in Washington state. They are transmission line so the cabinet resonance is much better controlled then most speakers. You probably noticed that with your adagios. Jim |
Thank you all for your recommendations, I’m looking into the relevant websites. The problem with those who sell directly is that I can’t audition, so the only option is a calculated guess. And yet, I’ve learned of some interesting manufacturers I’ve never heard of. A few words about the main compromise in my price range: As I see it, there is one main compromise in my price range, which is the very fact that given that level of quality of the components, I’m limited to 2 Way designs. It IS a compromise. Deep bass, the way I perceive it, cannot be generated from a single 6-6.5’’ driver, even with great excursion capabilities and with the very best cabinet design. There simply isn’t enough radiating area to push the necessary amount of air. For those who prefer the deep bass over the benefits of high end components, there are speakers such as audio physics’ relevant specimens in the price range, the Vienna Acoustics Beethoven grand/baby grand and In the mid 2000’s there were the Von Schweikert Vr4jr just to name a few. They are all made of middle of the road components (some even simpler), good designs and usually decent cabinets. I used to own the Beethoven grad for about a year. It had wonderful bass and dynamic range, and it’s a fun speaker I’ve enjoyed tremendously at a certain time. However, It lacked the clarity and precision of simpler speakers made of superior components I’ve auditioned or owned and was quite "colored". Same goes with audio Physic (although to my taste they are better, at least the ones from the mid 2000’s which I have experience with). In any case, I willingly accept the compromise in the number of drivers and radiating area. I do not accept a significant compromise in the components themselves, not at this price point. |
I'm all for it, but don't know of any 8 inch 2 Ways up to the specks I'm looking for- If you know of any I'd appreciate a recommendation. Also, an 8 Inch driver will have to be of superb quality in order deliver the mid range quality a high end 6-6.5 Inch driver is capable of. There is a price to be paid in large drivers, such as greater mass and more surface deformations. |
No, I can't recommend anything, it was a thought, and personally I think that's what I like for a moderate size room. What I have is not what you seek, those Vifa drivers are okay but you want the highest quality, besides these are older speakers and no longer available. Another thought. Maybe you should check out more esoteric brands like LaHave in Canada and some Swiss and Dutch speakers, don't remember the names. Some small boutique European compamies might be offering exactly what you are looking for. Auditioning can be a problem, true, if possible at all. There is a dealer in New York City that deals in esoteric Euro brands. Take a look - High Water Sound. |
Hi, I have been a music lover for many years and have had many different speakers and many amps and preamps. I guess I could be considered an audiophile and have spent decent amounts of money over the past 20 years. Have you heard of Tyler Acoustics from Owensboro, Kentucky. Ty is a real gentleman and uses high quality drivers from Scanspeak and Seas and his crossovers are designed with the help of Danny Ritchie. He can build you speakers with your preferences. He has 2 lines that could be of interest to you. His Highland line using all Scanspeak quality drivers and his Decade SE line using all Seas drivers. Check his website and give him a call to discuss, you will find him very helpfull and knowledgeable and his prices are quite reasonable as he sells factory direct. He has the H4's which are a 2 way design that would probably fit your needs exactly and can also make some mods. to furhter accomodate your needs. I have purchased 4 different pairs from him and love them all and still have 3 pairs and are considering upgrading one pair to his Highland premium line. In the past I have owned some Celestions Dittons,Sonus Faber's Concertos and Grand Pianos, Castle Winchesters, Acoustic Zen Adagios, Paradigm Reference series and Revel Studios. In my opinion, Tylers are unbeatable at their price points and really recommend that you call him to discuss. Best of luck, Shafto |
To comment on deep bass with a 6.5 inch woofer... its true that moving enough air with a small driver isn't ideal for anyone who likes that impact that comes from larger woofers, but multiple small drivers does work. Todays designs not all must mostly are that narrow front baffle. That's why you see so many speakers today with 2, 3 or even 4 - 61/2 inch woofers in the bass section. I built an MTM using a 6.8 Inch HiVi..(same as the early Totem Forest) This speaker was very surprising on the low end and I'd have no problem comparing it with a decent 10 inch. In cone area alone 2 6 1/2 inch compare with about a 8 1/2 inch woofer. |
It sounds like that you don't want a kit, but looking is free. This is a John Krutke design. Extremely well known in builders circles. This would be and enjoyable speaker. Seems to meet all of your criteria. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/3-way-speaker-kits/zaph%7Caudio-sb12.3-sb-acoustics-12-dual-mi... |
Here is the link for the H4’s from Tyler Acoustics and they are on special. Give Ty a call to discuss at (270) 691-9500 and tell him Bob from Montreal referred you. http://www.tyleracoustics.com/Specials.html |
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It's not just the basic tweeter (seas 27tbc). I know the shl5 quite well (a friend of mine owns a pair). I have many issues with its design (the thin cabinets, the dispersion of 2 tweeters and more), which makes it what it is- a fun speaker overall with lots of depth and room filling dynamics, but no where near the level of clarity or bass presicion I'm looking for. I do like it, but I can't live with it for critical listening. |
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It isn't in my system, and I know the shl5 for quite a few years now on different systems. For my taste, clarity, especially in the top end, is not one of the shl5's virtues. Btw, i uswd to own the spendor sp 1/2. It was quite similar in most regards. Never did a "head to head" comparison on the same system in the same room, but the general impression was very similar. |
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Whatever the design the transducers used will impose limits the designer will work within said limits. Many loudspeaker manufacturers use very affordable parts so they can make profits. Those saying that cheap is fine its the magic of the designers are a bit off and I feel they think us loudspeaker designers to have a magic when we do not. We work with many compromise to come up with a useful design. And yes the parts quality maters a good bit. Sure a good cook can make poor quality food palatable but just think what they would do with quality ingredients to start with? |
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To add to johnk's post: Any speakers company with substantial activity works with a variety of OEM manufacturers and various suppliers. Is cannot do everything itself, so constraints are imposed over the parts to be used in every model as a function of its destination price, target margin, number of units expected to be sold etc. The design, superb as it may be, is a one time cost. The parts used are costing per unit. So, if a company saves 20$ per tweeter, it's 40$ per sale X the number of sales that are added to its margin. And that is really OK, I wouldn't expect any company not to do what it can to increase its margin. On the other hand, it is my right as a potential buyer to seek the maximum amount of data regarding a certain product, components included. And to my skeptical nature (and practical experience), the explanation by which the design is more important, that the quality of parts is secondary and the general atmosphere of taboo over such questions- is way to convenient. Of course manufacturers would like everyone not to venture to deeply into their products and have everyone believe in their "magic". I don't buy this (pun intended...) |
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I think of a couple of things: 1) Although premium loudspeaker companies may use drivers sourced from large volume driver makers (Scanspeak, Seas, Focal, etc.), they usually work with the design teams of the driver manufacturers to come up with units to their exact specification. So it’s not just an off the shelf Seas 1" tweeter for example, it has been tweaked. And then the speaker manufacturers tweak the drivers further once they get them in house to perform to their design objectives. 2) There is significant cost in utilizing designers who have gained in wisdom and experience over their years in the business. Just like in any other business, this experience and ’tricks of the trade’ can be invaluable in how the speaker ultimately sounds. 3) There is a significant amount of listening and measurement to produce a certain sound and measurably flat response. Harbeth, Spendor, ATC, PMC, to name a few - use state of the art development software and measurement equipment to achieve ’studio monitor’ requirements. (Which may be different than their ’consumer’ goals). And they have DECADES of experience working with the top European driver manufacturers as materials science has advanced. The PMC PB1i which I own ’appears’ to have a pretty basic 3" Vifa dome midrange. But PMC has tweaked the driver and designed a crossover with very specific parts and slopes to achieve a sound and performance that mates beautifully with their goals to achieve a flat power response and even output for all of the drivers in the speaker. To say the speaker uses a "$60 Seas tweeter and a $100 midrange" totally misses the point. And to say that an $800 ATC dome midrange would be "better" in that design also misses the point. Such a driver may be very inefficient, or have to be driven very loud to achieve it’s optimum sound, etc. Which may not be the goal of a ’consumer’ speaker that needs to sound great at low/all levels. My advice would be to find a speaker that pushes all of your buttons. There are lots of speakers that are "ok" - but we know in this hobby that "just ok" is ultimately unsatisfying. Probably sooner rather than later. There are some exceptions, of course, but the speakers that are at that next level (which for some starts around $5k/pair) - are probably designed by experienced professionals with industry manufacturing relationships and significant [design and testing] resources. Not by someone that just purchased crossover design software and will buy his drivers from Madisound or other distributor. Good luck. |
Hi Roy - old thread, but curious where you landed on this. I'm in a very similar boat - happy TSM owner for the last 17 years, auditioned a number of things in that time but haven't found anything that pushes my buttons the same way musically. That said, they TSMs obviously aren't perfect, and there's a lot of interesting stuff out there these days. If you're still looking for something with high quality components and a similar form factor to the TSM, the Dynaudio Special Forty looks very interesting. I'm going to see if I can audition them somewhere. https://www.dynaudio.com/home-audio/special-forty/special-forty |
