marktomaras-you have great equipment, but like most of us stuck with "real world" living constraints, trial/error with compromise is reality. Im fortunate having a room allowing Cardas setup. http://www.cardas.com/speaker_placement.phpYour level speakers deserve breathing room, particaularly that right side. I would just push that right side out as much as possible(WAF) along with moving both away from back wall as much as possible, and call it a day. I'm sure you still hear great sonics, just not optimum due to WAF and room layout. |
I think that the equilateral triangle "rule" is a guideline...a starting point and that its "ok" to be further back at 138" depending on what you are ultimately trying to achieve. As you know, moving the right speaker to the left, even a couple inches, can have a pretty big effect on the soundstage as can toe in and toe out as can moving the speakers back toward the rear wall a couple inches. My suggestion is to find a musical cut that really showcases the elements you are ultimately looking for be it huge left right soundstage....or depth over width...or voice/instrument placement within (granted we would all like to have them all) and then have someone help you by doing slight speaker position changes playing that cut over and over. Then after you have found the perfect spot, live with it for a week, put some tape on the floor, make a few very tiny tweaks and if things get worse, you know where you started and if they get better, then all the better.
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Toe-in is very speaker and room dependent. With no side walls, usually pointing at your head to flat out is good. Modern Magico's for instance are best with none (fight me! :) )
If you are cramped, setting the speakers wide and crossing in front of your head may be a good compromise, if a little weird looking.
Really really cannot stress enough the importance of good room treatment.
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Dlcockrum, the speakers stop just before the rug, to move them fully onto the rug will be too much for the look of the room. It is a living room & Audio room, so there has to be a balance.
several of you mention more toe in. I think that is what I am going to try. I always thought very moderate toe in was preferable. Coincidentally, I went to an audio event at a local shop this week, a demonstration of Wilson Alexia 2, fancy DCS digital stuff, and D’agostino amps. Peter McGrath from Wilson was there. The alexias were toed in to an extreme (by my eye) amount. Peter explained this to me, and it appears that you all are on the right track with advise on my system. More toe in!
perhaps this evening I’ll kick them out 6 more inches, to shore up that equilateral disparity a touch, and toe them in so the tweeter axis crosses just behind my ears.
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Dlcockrum, the speakers stop just before the rug, to move them fully onto the rug will be too much for the look of the room. It is a living room & Audio room, so there has to be a balance.
several of you mention more toe in. I think that is what I am going to try. I always thought very moderate toe in was preferable. Coincidentally, I went to an audio event at a local shop this week, a demonstration of Wilson Alexia 2, fancy DCS digital stuff, and D’agostino amps. Peter McGrath from Wilson was there. The alexias were toed in to an extreme (by my eye) amount. Peter explained this to me, and it appears that you all are on the right track with advise on my system. More toe in!
perhaps this evening I’ll kick them out 6 more inches, to shore up that equilateral disparity a touch, and toe them in so the tweeter axis crosses just behind my ears.
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Very nice system you have Mark and your room diagram is great. Have you tried or considered moving the speakers farther away from the rear wall - say another ~2 feet out from the current position?
Dave |
yes, some tmts.on the side walls will pay off as will more toe-in (but it's best if they are aimed behind your head)
the perfect equilateral triangle thing is not an absolute |
If you have the speakers closer to the side walls and toe them in more, to maintain the same vertex/crossing point, this will ameliorate to some extent the negative effects of the reflections from the walls. |
It is a matter of trade-offs and values. There is no best answer, but good starting points. Ideally, you have no side walls at all, and you have no equipment between the speakers either. This is where high quality acoustic panels like GIK acoustics help.
What you want to achieve is an image that is solid from edge to edge, if not even beyond the speakers, with as smooth of a response as possible, and of course, we like wide soundstages!
As you get closer to the side walls, the image suffers, as does the mid-treble sound and transparency.
Toe-in is also a big deal. Sometimes a few degrees change can help fill in the soundstage. Sometimes you want the tweet axis to cross in front of your listening location, to minimize side wall interactions.
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My current speaker setup which has been refined over years of listening has them seven feet apart center to center with the listening position nine feet away.
This is with full range speakers. I can't see any advantage to using the equilateral formula. Perhaps with a small monitor type speaker in a near field environment it might prove ideal.
With your speakers I would not stress over that ideal. |
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