I've spent the past 6 months searching for just the kind of speakers you're describing. The search culminated with a visit to RMAF last month to compare the finalists in one place. My final choice may surprise you, but it's worth checking into. For me, it came down to the Goldenear Triton 2 and the Spatial Audio M3. I went with the Spatial Audio M3. It has a much more natural sound, has excellent detail and imaging, yet still has the right amount of warmth. And it's half the price of the Triton 2. The Spatials are relative newcomers, but they're won't be obscure very long. The reviews have been outstanding, and the product is unique and special. It's well worth checking out. |
I've try to drive a pairs of Dynaudio Focus 110 using Class D Audio power amp SDS-400C, with amazing results, a little speakers can become so powerful if you give them enough clean quality and quantity of power, but not all speakers benefit from more power, some traditional designed speakers suffer from too much power, it just cannot go beyond certain dynamic level, but clean power does contribute better on transparency |
In the mid price range Onkyo is the only brand what can create a deep and wide stage.
A little higher: Primare and Pathos.
In higher price ranges there are a lot more: Pass, Krell and Dan D'Agostino etc.
* When you use Pass labs poweramps and a source like the Lumin S1 ( we are Lumin dealer as well) you can create with the Platinum series a much bigger holographic stage compared to many speakers like: Kef en B&W.
Beside these I compared the stage of the Platinum with the Wilson Audio Sasha2. This was also with Pass labs. The stage of the Platinum was wider and deeper. But within the stage instruments and voices are much more palpable and 3 dimensional.
The outcomming Platinum will be superior to the older ones. The ribbontweeter is bigger and wider. This will create a stunning holographic stage. Roksan uses the same ribontweeter in a speaker. We never auditioned such a wide and deep stage with a 2D amp. Very promissing.
It is much more open than Diamond/beryllium tweeter and even less harsh.
The new subwoofer will be unique as well. It will have 2 times 15 inch bass units with both their own amp. But they will use ceramic with alluminium drivers with the same way the Gold series connected their drivers. This is more from the centre of the unit. It will have the fastest response in the market. The timing will be a lot faster than the slow Velodyne subwoofers. They will even go lower than the 18 inch Velodyne.
Beside this the Pl-500 will be the Flagship of 20.000 euro. This will be a competitor of the B&W 802D3. I will buy them myslef as well and I can promiss you one thing: I will invite B&W for a shootout. Prepare yourself B&W!! |
Despite the extreme/obsessive focus on MA, I found a lot of other recommendations in this thread that I think could be helpful for my speakerquest as well. Thank you to all the posters on here who made the other recommendations along with their reasons. |
Bo,
What amps give the 3 dimensional sound with the new Monitor Audio Gold series? |
"11-09-15: Taters
I have never seen Monitor audio speakers in a high-end store. Plus I believe the mail order company Audio Adviser sells them. I will say one thing. You are a great salesman and you should be a rep for the company. For all I know you already are."
There are smaller, traditional high end stores in the US that sells Monitor Audio. I bought a pair from a store in PA a few years back. Also, they are more established in other countries that don't have so many brands like we do here in the US. Its a tough market.
As far as value goes, I find them to be very competitive with other speakers in their price range. MA is a hard speaker to mess up with. (Keep in mind, I haven't heard any with the ribbon tweeters). For my own personal taste, the only speakers I like better for about the same money is Vandersteen. That said, I can see someone liking MA better, especially if you like the British feel in a speaker (PRAT). MA does that very well. |
It depends how you use it. These days I only sell 3 dimensional sound. This is both stereo and multi channel. I had many 3 dimensional highend sets. But I wanted to create te same kind of sound for all my clients.
Monitor Audio is the only brand in the world ( in their price ranges) who creates crossovers who can create a deep and wide stage. I can create a stunning stage with all their speakers.
When you use Monitor Audio this way, you can outperform all other brands. Audio is all about shootout and comparing. The exitment and emotion what you get by a 3 dimensional sound in both stereo and multi channel exceeds any 2 dimensional sound. I can send all my clients to any other shop. They always choose for my 3 dimensional sound. |
I have never seen Monitor audio speakers in a high-end store. Plus I believe the mail order company Audio Adviser sells them. I will say one thing. You are a great salesman and you should be a rep for the company. For all I know you already are. |
I was impressed by active speakers Event Opal that powered by nearly 500 watts per each. |
It is very easy to compare. The new Gold speakers of Monitor Audio use new drivers. Material is lighter and they are these days more connected from the centre. This gives them a faster response. So a beter timing.
They changed the crossovers of the ribbontweeter as well. It has now more authority and the harshness is gone.
When you compare Dynaudio against Dynaudio, the differences are huge. The Monitor Audio is faster, more open en the stage is wider and deeper.
Wen you sell Monitor Audio loudspeakers with an amp what can create a wider and deep stage the distance between the Dynaudio and Monitor Audio becomes bigger.
When you hear music by a wider and deeper stage you will directly hear that music becomes so much more appealing.
My advice: just compare them yourself. The biggest limitation is that most shops in the Netherlands use 2 dimensional amps with Monitor Audio.
Monitor Audio Holland asked me in 2014 what kind of amps the shops use who sell their products. Over 90% is only 2 dimensional.
We test all amps on all parts you judge it for. Stage depth and width is an important part as well. |
Can you compare 1D Monitor Audio GX100 vs 6D Dynaudio Focus 160? I don't care what D is it, if it's too revealing, it ain't a good speakers for music, right? To connect to the music, we need E(Emotion) D lol |
Updating things the New M-3 Spatial audio speakers in a Turbo model
Upgraded capacitors, and S model special Titanium Nitrate coating for the ultimate in response. These speakers testing against marks like 3.7 Maggi $new model $3500 Emerald physics brystons best and 208 Revel my brother owns floor stander.Th bass really stands out .the room is energized with tight articulate Bass .a subwoofer will go down perhaps lower but will not energized the room this fast snd articulate.i have a JL audio E -12 sub which is great but the open baffle crested snappy bass like live.
In all my years as a Audiophile no speaker even at $5k did so many things
So well integrated, and works well if even tough acoustic rooms.
Efficiency 94 DB @4 ohms and go down to below 30 HZ is a tough act to follow . I call it a 2.5 speaker for it has a purpose built super broad band compression driver developed with Emenance driver engineers for the test response the compression driver is made in Italy I was told ?
Either the a Turbo,or a Turbo S model is recommended to archive the results I mentioned and with a 45 day trial a no brainer in my opinion. |
Bo,
You just killed this thread with your "3D ego".
Way to go. |
Many Lucky clients makes you happy, it is that easy :)
So I hope for the mongols that they will learn to think...... |
Bo's lucky. All of the best psychiatric help can be bought legally and over the counter in his country. |
|
No need, but in audio I guess many people need some more knowledge to get a better result. That's a fact! |
Bo1972, have you ever considered getting some psychiatric help? |
In the world of Audio there are enough brands who are able to give you a 3D sound. They create a higher endresult in sound than 2 dimensional sound.
It doesn't mean that people cannot enjoy 2 dimensional sound. The intensity is different. Nothing more, nothing less. |
"Mystery solved; Monitor Audio for everyone!!!!!!!!!!
Throw away all other "2D" crap!!!!!!!!!"
Chuckling |
Many people in audio(mongols) do not know the properties of all the different stuff they sell.
So they are not able to use the right amps to make the best combination with a speaker.
The most common mistake with Monitor Audio in my country. I did a research for the distributer. Is that most of them sell and demo Monitor Audio with 2 dimensional amps. |
I have seen many women enjoy music for the first time in their life. Because I Always try to involve women during listening.
Women have a better developed hearing than men. But....the interest in audio and music is bigger with men.
I have a female client who is 69 years old. She is listening to music on the couch. Because this is in the middel of the set. She said: when I sit here I can hear people stand in front of me like they are here in real. She has her own chair. Before they bought the set she never sit on the couch she said. |
Thanks Mjmch,
I am addicted to music and sound since I was 6. I have done so much more research and tests than any other in this branche.
For me things are a lot easier to understand. It is sometimes irritating that others are so f....blind (deaf) and that they really don't know what they do.
I see a lot further in sound and music than others do. In life all people are equal. But in the world of audio in my opinion there are many F...mongols!
They give many people a low level of endresult. So F...the mongols! |
I "get" what Bo is saying that he "sells a sound."
That's a pretty unique approach. I can't say I've been to a retailer who approaches audio that way.
My GX200's have broken in a bit and I can see where some folks would find them tipped-up. Compared to the Vienna Acoustics speakers that preceded them, absolutely. However, the GX200 has an incredible mid-range that blends really well with the woofer. Add in the ribbon tweeter and I agree that these guys disappear and seem to create space behind themselves. The highs are way extended, and some folks might not like this. My wife likes this feature because she can listen at relatively low levels and still experience great sound.
I can also see that, because the GX200 are revealing, a really good DAC or source would be with the cash. |
I would go for the new .8 series of Pass Labs. No question about it!
The drivers can make a bigger movement. The conus is been hang up from the middle. This gives them a bigger response.
It was the first speaker I heard which did not have what we call; a hummm in the low freq. When they are brand new.
I never heard this timing in low freq. in this price range.
Audio is about comparing. If people are happy with 2D sound, it is fine with me.
Not every person like my direct approach. I am not here to be liked by every person. And that is fine with me. |
16 years, yet you wasted 8 years selling 2d dali. |
How about in the $5000-$10,000 range?
What do you mean by the same new unit technique as the silver series? |
There are more amps which can give a 3D stage with the PL-200. It depends hom much money you want to spend?
There is no information yet. They will have the same kind of new unit technique as the new silver series.
Monitor Audio Always uses better materials than others in the same price league.
Monitor Audio is founded in 1972, the year I was born :) |
Bo
What can you tell us about the new Platinums and when they will come to market?
Also, what amp with the PL 200, gives you 3D?
Thanks, |
06-14-14: Johnnyb53
"Has it occurred to anyone that this is a 6-1/2-month-
old thread with 47
responses with not one acknowledgement or clarification from
the OP?"
That's funny. It happens more times that I can count.
I call it "drive by" posting. My guess is that
the OP(OP's) goes to many forums and asks the same questions
and gets his/her answers elsewhere.
Bill |
I remember back in the late '60s, when contact lenses were very expensive--
$120 in 1968 is equivalent to around $800 now. When someone lost one,
everything stopped while people joined in to try to find the lost contact lens.
Basketball games would be even be delayed while a player and teammates
searched for a lost a contact lens.
Soon, a popular prank was to pretend you've lost a contact, and once you have a
crowd of bystanders helping to look for the non-existent contact, you quietly slip
away. This thread reminds me of that prank.
Has it occurred to anyone that this is a 6-1/2-month-old thread with 47
responses with not one acknowledgement or clarification from the OP? |
I owned the B&W 802N and 800S for over 8 years of time. I loved the focus of instruments and voices a lot. And the sound with classical music. But I Always was aware of the limitation of their crossovers. It gave me the feeling that the music was not fluid. Like the freq. were played separated. I missed depth when I listend to other speakers who did this better. I am a perfectionist and I compare all the time. The best is the only thing that matters.
I started selling the Platinum speakers when they came out in 2007. I owned the Pl-300 for 5 years of time. I liked them a lot. But there was one thing I didn't like about them; I could not listen to classical music with them. In 5 years I did not play classical music. The B&W 800S did this a so much better. But in 3d stage, resolution, speed and decay it beat the 800S. The 800S got down to 25hz. I missed the lower freq. as well. But I did not want to go back to a less wide and deep stage. I thought about buying the B&W 800D. After hearing them I thought; No....I want a bigger stage. Because this is a higher level of listening to music.
The Pl-200 is a stunning speaker. It is a lot more natural in the mid freq. compared to the Pl-300. I started listening to classical music again. The stage is bigger and wider than the Pl-300. I had discussion's about this with Monitor Audio England. They agreed that the Pl-200 is a better speaker. So I asked: why you don't change the crossovers of the PL-300? They will not change it anymore. It is about costs. What can I say?
The Pl-200 is extreme fast and dry. In this price range I can create a huge wide and deep stage. But within the stage instruments and voices are sharper focussed than competitors. The ribbon tweeter makes the stage bigger in front of the speaker. It plays music fully loose and physical in front of you. The integration of the 3 way system is exeptional good. The response is stunning as well. For a small speaker it can play at extreme volumes. ( spl= 118db)
In 2009 I had the Wilson Audio Sasha for about 6-8 weeks to listen at. The Pl-300 had a wider and deeper stage with the same amps. I love to test speakers. I Always want to know how wide and deep they can build a stage. The second question is: how intimate and sharp are instruments and voices focussed within the stage.
I sold Avalon for over 6 years of time. In my opinion the weakest point of Avalon is the sharpness of the focus of instruments and voices within the stage. When you compare this part with the Platinum speakers you understand directly how much better the Platinums can focus.
I have created a live stage experience with the Pl-200. The PLW-15 with Audyssey Pro give me the stealth integration I Always dreamed of in the past. Now I have superior low freq. even compared to my old B&W 800S.
Audio is like a formula one car, looking for the best setup. Don't forget I spend a lot of time on testing and comparing. People who do this for a hobby do not have this much time and possibilities I have.
My clienst know that they never can beat me in endresults. I can see 3-4 steps further than other people in this business . I can proof this with sound. This is how I work. Just listen and you will understand.
In 2015 there will be the new Platinum series. I am looking forward to these. Every new serie they bring out Always is a big step further than the old one. |
Bo, you talk about how important it is for a speaker to have a good crossover. I'm sure most of us will agree, myself included. The question I have is what exactly are you looking for in a crossover? I know you like Monitor Audio (I do too), but what is MA doing with their crossovers that other speakers do not? |
I said it quite often; In the US there are many brands which are not that common in Europe.
I keep on promoting 3D sound. When others do the same, I am a happy man.
I said it many times; it is not about me. It is about the best sound. I want more people to be happy with their system.
I know that 3D sounds give a much higher level of enjoying your beloved music.
Maybe I can be hard, but.....every single person deserves the best sound. |
Bo,
I admire your passion. That said, do me a favor and listen to a pair of Canalis Anima with a 3D source of your liking. Then tell me what you think.
Happy listening. |
Focal use exeptional good crossovers in the 1000 and Utopia series. They can build a wide and deep stage.
Some people don't like the sound of Focal speakers.
But when you use a musical and warm sounding amp you can get a very good balance with the speakers.
The low freq. can give some difficulties in the setup. But they are more easy to setup than Wilson Audio.
At shows often the demos are not that good with Focal loudspeakers. This has nothing to do with the qualities they own.
When you use the right stuff, they can give a stunning 3 dimensional stage.
There are more 3 dimensional brands, at the end there are a lot more who are 2 dimensional.
I do not say that people cannot enjoy a 2 dimensional image. 3 dimensional stage is more entertaining and a lot more addictive.
Many clients said; that they enjoy their music again since they have a 3 dimensional stage. It pulls you into the music. |
You can get the GIANT KILLERS.. Yamaha Soavo ns-f901's for as low as $2800 !.. |
I beg to differ Bo.
No offense but it sounds to me like you're just trying to sell your product.
My first real venture into the so called HiFi world started with an Alpha 10, Linn Kan, and SL1200MKII (let me guess, 2D?). Well, it sounded fantastic to my ears!
First, not everyone has the means to spend loads of money to buy MA, Pass, Pathos, etc.
More important, I am most certain that I am enjoying your "so called 3 dimensional sound" with my current set-up.
The level of depth, resolution, balance, soundstage, and imaging that the Cronus Magnum/Triton 7 set-up produces in my listening environment is simply staggering!
By the way, you haven't answered Schubert's question. I'm intrigue to find out if you consider Focal's sound to be 2D or 3D?
No hard feelings. |
There are more 3 dimensional brands. It is a fact that people prefer 3 dimensional far over 2 dimensional sound.
The intensity in listening to music is much bigger. It pulls you into the music. When you do this for 7 years like I do, you know how succesful it is compared to any 2 dimensional sound.
People enjoy music a lot more when they listen to their beloved music with a 3 dimensional stage.
It is not only the 3 dimensional stage what makes it more involving. The small and intimate stage within the wide and deep stage is another part of the succes.
3th part is creating a musical involving sound. |
Mystery solved; Monitor Audio for everyone!!!!!!!!!!
Throw away all other "2D" crap!!!!!!!!! |
It has nothing to do with 2 or 3 way. It is the stage that is being build behind the speaker. And even beside and in front of the speaker.
Ribbon tweeters can give a bigger stage because they can project the stage further infront of the speakers.
So you get an extreme holographic stage. The head editor of the biggest Audio magazine in our country loved the 3 dimensional image I had on a big show last year. He said; you were the absolute sound by far. Many distributers had the same opinion.
During the day for shopkeepers many people who had a shop came to me and asked how I can create such a big stage. Many never heard music so physical touchable in there whole life. I used a professional measurment. It doesn't matter anymore that the room was so average in acoustics. The endresults are Always exeptional good.
This I do since 2007. I only sell and create 3 dimensional sound. In 2010 I started to use acoustic measurments.
Instruments become fully loose and apparent in front of you. This is so Obvious and precise that many audio lovers during the show came to me and said: this is of a whole new level in sound I never experienced.
Many did not understand that the subwoofer fully dissapeared. People got on the knees and put their ears on the centre. They thought I used the centre during stereo.
Even people put their ears to the during the show.
People don't know this level of integration. And most of them never heard a 3 dimensional stage this physical.
I also could let people hear a much higher level of micro information. I did let people hear the breathing during singing. Word endings on sss, ttt and th. And moving lips during singing.
I said to them: ask for these numers on any set of the show. You easilly will hear there is less information on any other set on the show.
Every single part in sound I can raise to a higher level. Hearing is believing. What you hear is the thing that counts.
I want to make audio more easy to understand for every single person.
In a few weeks I will take Monitor Audio in my country to many different clients who all have a stunning and extreme 3 dimensional stage.
I want them to convince that I create a suprior level in endresult with every single Monitor Audio speaker compared to any other shop. They know for years that I can create a much higher level than any person can achieve. |
Bo1972, is Focal a 3d brand ? |
I'm with Ricred1 on this . I personally have never listened to a Monitor speaker that didn't sound tipped up and unbalanced. That said maybe Bo1972 has found electronics to get a balanced sound. As far as the 3 dimensional sound, I have heard many different speakers or systems with excellent 3d presentation. Much has to do with source , room and speaker placement. I have a dealer in my area which he had a pair of monitor pl300 that he took as trade towards new speakers he was selling. In attempt to get good sound to demo for potential buyers he found no front end or amp to tame them. He sells many different manufacturer of both solid state and tube . He said the sound always was bright and fatiguing. Again Bo1972 may have the balance needed with matching components but it seems that you are quite limited on your amps. Also as everyone on this site knows everyone hears differently and has there idea of what they like. I am not knocking Monitor I am giving my experience with the models I have listened. If you are enjoying them then I say GREAT. |
Zd542; I understand his remarks. Don't forget many demos are often very average or poor with many different brands.
Because many people who work in this busienss do not know a lot about properties. This happens all the time.
At shows the same kind of errors are made constantly. |
"06-10-14: Ricred1
I've listened to Monitor Audio PL200s and PL300s. To my ears there are several speakers in their price range that are more balanced. They have a bright, forward sound to my ears."
Why do you think the speakers were at fault? You can't listen to just a pair of speakers. They have to be part of a system. The bright sound you experienced could have come from other component(s). |
The Platinum speakers have one of the best 3 dimensional physical stages in their price range.
But most shops ( are F....idiots) and use 2 dimensional amps. This makes clear how low the knowledge and insight is.
I crush every speaker in their price range because I can build the widest and deepest stage with these speakers. Within this stage I can even create the sharpest intimate indivividual focus.
When I demo this, I can send people to all shops. Because they never can reach the same speed, timing, resolution, blacks, wide and deep stage and physical intimate image.
I sell a sound; this is a 3 dimensional extreme wide and deep stage. And within this stage a physical intimate stage. I use properties to create this.
This is a totally different way than others do. Other people do not have this level of insight to use tools just for their properties.
That is why it is so easy to win from other shops. Because the most convincing and involving sound Always will win. It is that simple! |
Yes, electronics can make a difference, but every speaker has a house sound. My personal opinion is they are forward/bright speakers. |
Which amps did they use and which cables?
I had many discussion's with Monitor Audio about this. They asked me to see what amps shops use for Monitor Audio speakers.
Often they are 2 dimensional. They way I sell Monitor Audio is what makes it superior to other brands.
First you need to know the properties and then you need to use them to the max. Knowledge and insight in above 95% of the shops is too low. They make a lot of mistakes.
Then other speakers can sound better. Often these speakers are 2 dimensional. When you use the right amps you will crush most speakers. That is why I only use 3 brands. Because they give the best results for their price and all give a 3 dimensional stage.
When you use a 3 dimensional amp and an amp which has the perfect balance in sound for Monitor Audio. It is easy. In 16 years of time, I never had a brand which gives me this advantage over other speakers so obvious.
Last year when I was the absolute sound, Monitor Audio from my country invited the people of Monitor Audio England. They said: we never heard a demo with our speakers this good. They also do not use the right amps and cables for their speakers at shows.
Because I use them to the max. This is based on properties. When you don't know and understand these properties. It is not possible to get the best out of the speakers. It is that simple....for me! |
I've listened to Monitor Audio PL200s and PL300s. To my ears there are several speakers in their price range that are more balanced. They have a bright, forward sound to my ears. |
Not sure what you mean by 2 vs 3 dimensional speakers but if you are referring to 2 vs 3 way speakers:
IMHO a well-designed 2-way is always preferable to a mediocre 3- way so I believe there are no hard and fast rules.
The Spiral Groove Canalis Anima for example, is a 2-way which possibly sounds better than many 3-way speakers at the same price.
I was trying to explain that the Zensor 7/Cronus Magnum combo will sound extremely satisfying at $3,600.00 all together.
I believe that a two way speaker of modest size is very, very, hard to beat, particularly on voice, and particularly if the best technology and components (active crossover) are used.
If the very best clarity, accuracy, lack of distortion, and realism is to be maintained then the mid / bass driver must not be asked to perform beyond its best design envelope in the low bass region.
If low bass response is of critical importance to the listener, then the best result is probably a 3-way design. Reason why I also recommended the Triton 2s.
One last note, very high priced designer fashion and marketing statements do not enhance audio performance.
My current speakers are GoldenEar Triton 7s. They cannot play rock or other forms of power music at high volume levels. Then why have them? Mainly for their uncanny ability to reproduce a full-bodied sound that is extremely easy to listen to for hours without fatigue. |
