I’m looking high and low for speakers with the following attributes:
1. Wide and deep soundstage. Speakers can disappear from the soundstage. 2. Decent imaging. 3. Explosive dynamics with force and surprise. 4. Costs less than $10k.
Consider your journey to capture that sound forever is now over.
For a fact, Supertramp went on tour with their own gear - custom speakers using ATC drivers (same as Pink Floyd on tour, Genesis ’78 Trick of the Tail tour). All you need do is find some large ATC speakers with 12 or 15 inch woofers. I believe 12 inch (PA75-314) was what Supertramp and others used. High explosive levels with ultra low distortion. The studio version of that driver is even higher performance.
mind that the attributions you are looking for are also very dependant on amp/preamp.
I can’t see anything outside these: - Tannoy Legacy Arden, needs a good quality/decent power amp - XTZ Divine Alpha, needs a powerful dynamic amp - absolutely gorgeous and capable speaker in that price range - equals the B&W 800D, but difficult to beat the Tannoy 15" DC driver for presence and soundstage - Giving you away a great tip, and far bettering the two above; there is actually a pre-owned pair of Tannoy GRF90 - you cannot get any better for the price in my opinion, these will do everything to a very high level, and kick you in the face with dynamics and huge soundstage. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-as-new-2017-10-21-speakers
I agree a lot has changed in the market - Meyer, Nexo and Funktion One make great gear for PA. IMHO EAW Anya has the best portable array system currently for stadiums. These days, it is as much about an easily setup and controlled computerized adaptive sound management system as it is high quality transducers. Anya from EAW is the most impressive I have heard - it turns lousy venues into qood to excellent acoustics. Incredible ability to tune the sound in all directions.
It is just Buellrider97 specifically mentioned the sound from the Supertramp tour as being something he has been looking for. Supertramp like Pink Floyd were very careful about sound quality. Crime of the Century MFSL version is probably the most dynamic range pop album ever released! Supertramp were famous for their live sound too and especially the bass response.
That said not much has actually changed in terms of low distortion and high SPL. It simply takes lots of clean power and very expensive good quality drivers (large motors, large underhung voice coils and large woofers with high Xmax). At that time, the ATC 12 inch driver was the best in the entire PA market. Other large PA speaker manufacturers no doubt copied ATC higher performance designs (and made them at lower cost) and meanwhile ATC continued improving their design far beyond what is necessary for a PA setup and entered the high end studio market (where users were willing to pay for costly incremental performance improvements at high SPL for their showcase Main Monitors)
So to summarize, my last two comments are really directed at Buellrider97 and I am not suggesting anyone start building there own speakers to achieve "explosive dynamics" - although that is probably the cheapest solution!!!
Costs less than $10k. Sorry only horns can do Explosive dynamics with force and surprise. I know so many are sold on undersized cheap to build sell thin towers with far to small over worked wee mid range woofer combos installed in thin baffles requiring compensation in networks to correct it. But if one really wants what the threads poster demands only a fully loaded horn system will deliver it.
Wow thanks for the info . Glad I didn’t mention ZZ Top or Green Day “ American Idiot Tour “. As far as “ Crime of the Century” , if you want to see a system stumble , play it LOUD ! BTW , I saw” Dark Side Of The Moon “ at the Cow Palace in SF , makes sense what you guys are sharing . Also +3 on the Tannoy’s , great suggestion. If I remember correctly Manly Labs , has them scattered around their shop . I’m glad there is not a -#5 Wife Factor restriction at play 😝. Thanks again, Mike B , Clovis , Ca.
Yeah.... That’s why nobody uses systems like that anymore, right? Because it just can’t be done any other way? Step into the 21st century.
Stepping into the 21st century audio-wise has little if anything to do with replicating or even approaching core traits from the horn speakers of yore, but more to do with maintaining a paradigm of much smaller, more inefficient and less space-intrusive speakers. Those may have admirable qualities in regards to dynamics relative to their specific type and inherent limitations, but as poster johnk implies will fall short of much bigger and radically more efficient, fully horn-loaded speakers here.
That few (again, few, not "nobody") are using big horn speakers today could have a variety of reasons, some of which may include the impractical nature of sheer size (more on that later), and that the virtues of this segment of speakers are simply less sought after or appreciated today. It’s also a matter of priority; horn speakers usually requires of one to re-think overall system implementation, adjust to what’s typically a different kind of sound, and make a more conscious choice in the way they’re going to inhabit ones living-/listening room space.
Later decades of "advice" (i.e.: protocol, even) concerning the fitting speaker size for ones listening space seems to dictate small speakers for small(er) rooms, and by this token big horn speakers in particular would likely not fit until you had a literal barn to house them in. Personally I find this approach to be, diplomatically put, overly schooled, but of course this way the industry can find ways to cater to and justify its small-size speaker paradigm, and numb or lull the buyers into a more or less trained behavior. In effect the range of bigger speakers, the ones who are really beginning to approach live dynamics, are pulled out of reach to most buyers - if nothing else, and in addition to the reasons mentioned earlier, simply for being too expensive. Should achieving more realistic sound be an elitist boon? That would be a rhetorical question.. Sounds a bit too much like conspiracy? Well, lets not forget we’re up against an industry where catering to space constraints (and spousal acceptance) weighs in heavily, and where cost cutting of material quantity and quality comes into play, so to speak.
So, because it just can’t be done any other way? In large terms, yes - because it can’t be done any other way. As has been stated already, you can’t cheat physics.
I have heard many, many speakers with multiple small woofers and some can have very good dynamics. However, they do not get to the level of horns. None, zip, zero, nil, nada. Doggedly denying that fact does not make it any less valid. High efficiency and displacement are the way to explosive dynamics as has been stated several times here already.
Johnk is right, for extreme dynamics you need horns period
however there are dynamic speakers that do it better than others and they don't have multiple small woofers period.
Kosst the the reason they don't make them like that is because they don't have to. It's much more expensive and complicated . They had limited power with tubes so they had to use horns to get the sound levels. Then came the transistor and ruined everything. They figured that power was cheap so they could make inefficient smaller speakers and get the sound levels with the power. But in the trade-off we lost the dynamics.
To sum it up it's not that we have progressed beyond and made a better mouse trap it's just that the way they do it now is cheaper.
I kind of hate to bring this up, but explosive dynamics requires recordings with high dynamic range. Unfortunately many CDs, LPs and SACDs, not to mention hi res downloads are being excessively compressed dynamic range wise. No worries. At least you can listen to them loud. 😳
I would agree that, for overall sound quality, it’s hard to beat Legacy Audio at various price points. At $10k, the Focus SE, with its ribbon tweeter and prodigious bass, gets you imaging, soundstage, and the ability to reproduce music on a large scale, as well as having fairly high sensitivity.
kosst what horns have you heard? Horns can image just fine. A friend of mine has a pair of vitavox they will just blow your mind with the sound and imaging. I have had numerous Tannoy's for high-frequency driver is a horn. As well as 604, same deal. Those are two of the best imaging speakers out there. I currently have a gigantic pair of Oris horn's and they pinpoint image with the best of them. There's a lot of misconception about horns out there and I hate to see it perpetuated. Horns can and do sound amazing
The horn misconceptions reek of inexperience. Comments like horn speakers don’t image well is proof enough. They can do the disappearing act as well as any other speaker. This is why the internet can be a dangerous place to look for audio advice.
Seems a good number of horn manufacturers offering massive horn systems for home use maybe those extremely ignorant of whats available haven't noticed any horns at shows or available for sale.
Yes, the recording, that's where you start. You also need right source and amp/speakers unit to do it right. Horns are not for everyone, not for me - too big and expensive to consider.
I can definitely agree the recording is very important. I can also see why somebody may say horns are not for them as they are too big and too expensive. But don't dismiss them as honky and not worthy of a good sound, that is blatantly wrong!
For me the design is not relevant at all I am looking for sound not for a furniture. I will not hesitate to buy an ugly design speaker if it sounds right to me .
I'm not saying only.... you could also go with efficient speakers with large woofers. those 2 options are your only route to take for the ultimate in dynamics. And again I'm not sure about the Jbl horns that you heard but normally horns actually produce far less distortion than other speakers.
I can sympathize with Kosst over his skepticism about horns. For many years I felt exactly the same way---all horns I had heard had an annoying "shouting" coloration that I just couldn't get past. And I still feel that way about many horns including for example any speaker with an Altec 511 or 811 horn. But there are horns and drivers that don't suffer from these colorations. The breakthrough for me was hearing a Western Electric 32A horn and then later living with the Altec 32A and 32B horns which are close cousins to the WE. With proper compression driver and crossover design, speakers with these horns do not have any of the horn colorations that bothered me so much in the past. I have also heard other horns that don't suffer from traditional horn colorations (such as Emilar EH-500 and YL Acoustic horns) and I am sure there are some commercial horn speakers that are fine too but my experience with commercial speakers is too limited to make specific recommendations.
Hi , this is great stuff . Question to the Horn Guys , you’re way above my skill level , so please share . Do the high quality horn systems move the air with the authority of underhung voice coils and massive power ? My experience is limited , but on this type system , can you feel the drum kick on your chest ? Is this an Apples and Oranges thing ? This is a sincere question based on my lack of experience . As a youngster my Grandfather had tube systems with big EV and Altec stuff . It was a sweet , room filling sound , but it didn’t create this sort of “ Air Pressure “ sensation that comes with good live sound or a huge SS rig . Please share as I’m here to learn , not pontificate ( I’m not that smart ). Also I apologize for stepping all over this thread , but with knowledgeable sound engineers and horn experts sharing , this is a wealth of information . BTW it seems everybody agrees on Tannoy , that says a lot too . Respectfully, Mike.
Using highly compressed rock music to make the proclamation that your speakers don't dynamically compress music......absolutely brilliant. BTW, I like and listen to a lot of rock music. The Focals at 92 db efficient are likely very good at dynamics up to a certain point. No one hear is saying otherwise. Trying to say that they are the equal dynamically to any of the Volti Audio speakers, which are from 99 to 104 db efficient, is just plain foolishness. Again, not saying that the Focals are not good, just these are on a different level. You need to hear them to understand the difference. Dynamics and ease of presentation at any volume. And if you are comparing the sound quality to any PA system, all I can say is go seek out and hear a pair. Absolutely no contest. If I could afford the Alura, I would be permanently done with buying speakers. One of the times I heard them at Axpona, I was sitting right next to a speaker designer listening to them. I asked him what he thought and his only comment was, "Those are fantastic". 100% agree with him.
Your Focal 936 are excellent but 3 x 6.5 inch woofers with 1 inch voice coil and 4mm Vmax simply do not compare to a typical pro 15 inch woofer with 3 or 4 inch voice coil and 10 mm Vmax. In surface area alone, one 15 inch woofer is roughly equivalent to all six of your woofers and this larger surface area coupled with the greater linear excursion from a huge motor and also combined with a much larger box means up to four times more air and about eight times more SPL power.
The large voice coil also dissipates heat much more effectively than a tweeter sized voice coil. This translates also to higher SPL and dynamics.
There is a very noticeable difference from the mostly upper bass that you hear from your speakers - you really feel the kick drum on a big speaker - a kind of room air compression much more like the sound of a real 24" kick drum.
Not sure the OP mentioned the room size he/she intends to use whatever speakers meet his/her four criteria.
I think the smaller the room, the more I would agree with kosst_amojan and rbstehno that you don't need giant woofers for great dynamics. Well designed smaller woofers in numbers are rather potent.
However, I think extremely large rooms or even outdoor venues where one is wanting to top 100+ decibel levels is where the point about physics and horn-loaded speakers as suggested by analogluvr and phusis becomes more prevalent.
For a modestly sized home room space, I don't think 15 inch woofers and large horns are needed to achieve what the OP desires. On the other hand, if you're wanting to fill an "auditorium" with sound, I think you would have to go with multiple 15 inch woofers and horns.
^ There are plenty of large cone drivers can be driven to high levels with low power.
Many of the ubiquitous 3-way, narrow baffle, ~$3k towers can do dynamics fairly well, but I haven't come across any that can produce sound with the sheer scale of something like Klipsch Cornwalls.
Question is do horns, generally speaking, produce life-like dynamics or exaggerated 'life-unlike' dynamics ? As I understand, 15" woofer is difficult to make fast, maybe couple of 10" - 12" would be better ? I would not expect any $3k speakers with any source and amps to give me a real scale, $30k would be a more realistic figure, I guess. Having said that, I read some review of the Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated where the reviewer, after he had done his tests, tried this $16k integrated with $500 Elac monitor speakers, just for fun. He was close to shock - he didn't expect them to be able to play like that. Speakers need great amps.
Not going to comment on horns here because do not have enough experience beyond PA systems to add any value.
I have heard some impressive dynamics and excellent imaging from medium sized tower speakers with cone drivers that can be had for under ten grand new or used. Many suggested here already. Here’s my list:
Focals - 1038 Be II or Sopra 3 - used Wilson - later Watt Puppy or Sophia models - used (good choice IMO) bigger ProAc Response models - used PMC - Fact 12 - used (pair on Agon now just above your budget for nearly 1/2 price new, FYI) Monitor Audio Platinum 300-II - used Vandersteen - Quattro, maybe, preferably CT model Revel Ultima Studio 2 - used - very good with right amplification
none of these are going to be as efficient as horns of course, but you will not need a monster amp to drive most of them to achieve what you are looking for. I don’t know what you are using now, but these are all very good for around ten grand, give or take a few big ones.
This studio was built only a few years ago and is similar in setup to Mark Knopfler’s studio. Those are 15 inch woofers - all of them! And that delivers up to 121 db SPL continuous at 0.3% THD. Surprisingly, the low volume performance is even lower in distortion - so big and powerful can play incredible detail too.
These drivers all get broken in at the factory with a serious stress test
^Many huge speakers require very little power and volume for excellent dynamics. This would be glaringly obvious if you were to compare some volume-matched Altecs and some narrow-baffle tower speakers at around 70 db. What you’d find is that the lower efficiency tower speakers require the louder volume to come alive.
Some consider dynamics as simply chest-punching upper bass. That’s what the narrow baffle, 6" woofer tower speakers tend to do well.
What the large horn speakers can do (with only a few watts) is create a realistic orchestral crescendo, or a kick drum that gets eerily close to the real thing. Yes, they have to move a larger woofer, but the woofers typically have very light paper diaphragms and are designed for low excursion. This allows them to produce very fast bass. Subs OTOH are usually designed with much heavier diaphragms and suspensions. They’re also designed for long excursion. This is why comparing a 15" horn loaded bass driver to a typical subwoofer is useless.
Anyway, the most dynamic speakers are large speakers. As others have mentioned, it’s basic physics. It’s why most "class A" full range speakers are monolith size.
Sorry kosst, again pretty much every point in your last post is wrong. Horns sound better at all volumes due to much lower distortion. The driver simply is not working hard. You need to get out and hear some good horns!
Question is do horns, generally speaking, produce life-like dynamics or exaggerated ’life-unlike’ dynamics ? As I understand, 15" woofer is difficult to make fast, maybe couple of 10" - 12" would be better ?
Generally horns, not least all-horn speakers (let’s make that distinction clear, as most speakers referred to as "horns" are actually hybrids where the lower to central midrange and down is typically reproduced via direct radiating bass/mids units, hereby giving up sensitivity) will more readily approach life-like dynamics compared to direct radiating alternatives. But let us be careful not to turn things upside down; horns don’t or can’t exaggerate into "life-unlike" dynamics but only, once again, approach and even close to emulate life-like dynamics. It’s the smaller, less efficient direct radiating speakers that comes further away from even approaching this threshold, if you will. Any "exaggeration" felt as such (from horns) would be either "modes" as coloration or distortion at very high levels that would somehow give the sensation of a stressed or forced imprinting (which is very unlike typical quality horn-reproduction); or, the dynamics at play from horns are so much more in the same vein as life-like dynamics that any comparison to smaller, direct radiating speakers (which by virtue of a more general experience can easily become a false reference where dynamics are involved) would invariably be rather startling, and perhaps lead to the conclusion of horn dynamics being "exaggerated."
If we’re talking horn bass, which is rare nowadays, a 15" driver would likely sport a light diaphragm (typically paper) with a relatively small and lightweight voice coil (i.e.: no larger than 3," likely between 2-3"), have low excursion, and likely be placed in a sealed chamber. Horn bass sensitivity easily sits at 100+ dB’s, generally around 105 dB’s give or take, so imagine the power needed to feed this unit generating sound at a typical 65-85 dB listening level. We’re talking increments of watts, and at truly very high levels approaching 105-110 dB that driver would only need 1-5 watts, whereas the more general example of direct radiating speakers would need up to 100 times more power, power indeed of a magnitude where thermal impact is given at leads to compression. A horn-loaded 15" paper woofer has no problems with speed, even a non-hornloaded similar-ish unit faces no issues here.
@kosst_amojan
....because everybody wants gigantic, hulking crates for speakers, a big honky sound, and 110dB, right? This doesn’t strike me as a debate so much about dynamic range as it seems about just blaring, deafeningly loud regardless of the quality. The foundation of excellent imaging is flat response across a broad range of volume. You cannot have excellent imaging without that characteristic. Huge speakers are very well known for sonically falling apart when operated below their optimum power. Speakers with smaller drivers remain much more coherent across a much wider power range at the cost of some dynamics at the their limits. It’s a trade off and very few speakers deviate far from that truth. That’s all I’m trying to say and have acknowledged here.
It’s a misconception that owners of big horn speakers would generally and necessarily favor playing at 110 dB’s. What’s less known, if one knows horn speakers more "intimately" than mere exhibition experience, is their oftentimes excellent abilities to "come alive" at lower volumes (better so than non-horn speakers), which is an important asset for several reasons. Big size horn speakers also emulates live acoustic sound more closely than smaller direct radiating dittos, end of story. That’s a means in itself if you’re into a natural representation and can appreciate a live acoustic reference, regardless of playback level. And honky sound? Some horns can do that, but others don’t. You should seek more out for audition, and hear this for yourself - unbiased. Regarding the imaging thing: to be perfectly honest, the narrow baffle sales speech does nothing to me, because I can’t relate to or identify its so-called virtues - and it’s not for any lack of trying. My own speakers, which are all-horns (that is, from some 60Hz and up, below which a sub takes over), are 80 cm’s wide (over 30") and the enclosures are by no means diffraction friendly by that school of thought (Peak Consult speakers on the other hand, if you know them, image in ways that close to no other speakers I've heard can replicate, but whether it's really more natural I'd question). However, they image wonderfully, and I’d be very glad to let you hear for yourself. It’s not that I can’t appreciate non-horn and smaller speakers, on the contrary, it’s just really not "my thing" anymore as something I would actually own. Been there done that. Having said that I respect your choice of speakers and preference here, but it seems to me much of your inclination towards horn speakers is heavily biased from a ground of limited experience (and perhaps under less than ideal circumstances?), but if you should still come to the same conclusion with more widespread experience under better conditions, fair enough - to each his own.
I am a bit cautious about generalizing about various types of drivers and speakers; there are really good and bad implementations of all types. Given this caveat, I do agree that large coned woofers can be very fast and dynamic and deliver tone. I have heard terrific 18" drivers that can do this. They typically have light paper cones and pleated paper surrounds. Despite their size, they are not designed to go very deep in the bass range (the pleated paper surround restricts the range of fore and aft movement). But, properly implemented, they can deliver very tuneful bass. The high efficiency of many such drivers make them suitable for use with low-powered amps (my favorite kinds of amps).
The kind of dynamics the OP wants is less a function of deep bass than what the speaker can do in the midrange. When done right, horn/compression drivers are hard to beat in this department. They can sound extremely dynamic at surprisingly LOW volume. I actually prefer large horn systems playing at low volume than when they are cranked up very loud (they tend to "shout" at high volume. That might account for the popularity of huge horn systems in Japan where the size makes no obvious sense, given the small rooms. But, horns sound good in small rooms (my guess is their directivity reduces the influence of the side and back walls) and because they can be played at low volume, they would work in Japanese apartments.
I've also heard startlingly dynamic sounds at not crazy volume levels from some panel type speakers. I recently heard stacked Quad 57s with custom active crossovers to two custom tube amps at the Capital Audiofest deliver great dynamics. The Sanders Sound electrostatics I've heard were also extremely dynamic.
The OP has a $10K budget and shouldn’t have much trouble finding speakers that meet his criteria, horn loaded or otherwise.
Every speaker design has its tradeoffs. If it’s not low-level dynamics, it’s tone, coherency, imaging or something. I currently have 3 pairs of speakers in 3 systems and each have their strengths and weaknesses. In Kosst’s defense, horns tend to have a love it or hate it sound, despite all the things they can do well. While I like some horn speakers, I understand why others don’t. I think everyone here can agree that some speakers can manage surprising feats, despite their size and lack of efficiency. For some, a pair of KEF LS50s would be plenty "dynamic." After all, that’s a subjective term, and for which system context must be considered. For my tastes, a pair of Spendor SP100s or Harbeth M40s would meet all my needs, but someone out there would certainly find them anemic by their standards.
Perhaps someone should start a thread regarding horn speakers. This " love it or hate it " impression has to be explored, I think. Personally, I don't like in your face sound nor do I like laid back sound, horns or not.
Inna…are you female? Not that it matters really, but I get a female vibe from you and since there are so few females around this forum I'd simply like to know. Thanks.
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