I’m looking high and low for speakers with the following attributes:
1. Wide and deep soundstage. Speakers can disappear from the soundstage. 2. Decent imaging. 3. Explosive dynamics with force and surprise. 4. Costs less than $10k.
The moderator really sensors things so I will not elaborate. Pure Audio Project Loudspeakers. I have the Neo 15, with Voxativ full range driver running mids,highs. Maybe not most dynamic in absolute terms ,but oozes musicality. If you want more lock on precision and not so forgiving of bad recordings this modular speaker has a fantastic compression horn option with the beautiful wooden horn and priced less then half of it`s Competition.
Phusis I just checked out Simon mears and those look like some beautiful speakers you have! I bet they sound fabulous!
Thank you, and yes - I find they are marvelous sounding speakers. In the words of reviewer Kevin Fiske, if I may:
... there is no co-driver interference between the three elements of the Ucellos and the integration is clean and seamless. I heard absolutely no sense of cupping with voices – and that, I am told, is frequently a trait exhibited by horns. And the Ucellos’ dynamic range is simply extraordinary. They have a matchless ability to portray the softest, most subtle information on recordings, then in the next millisecond almost blast you out of your listening chair with a crescendo so fast and so loud it feels as if it might wake the dead.
If you google JBL 4350 you will see the full specs. The lower end has two 15" driver that extend up to 250Hz. The upper end is three way with its own passive crossover, starting from 250 to 1.1Hz a big beefy 12" cone driver does the honors, above that and up to 9kHz a 2" compression driver, and above 9kHz to 21kHz another ultra high compression driver. I use two 200W power amps for the high and low ends along with an electronic crossover set at 250Hz.
+1 Vahes but I would add that an exponentional horn tweeter can be substituted by a BIG beefy mid range and a conventional tweeter. Horns work great but there are a few powerful non-compression mid drivers out there.
For explosive dynamics you need a large speaker with the following specs: 1-dual 15" woofers, at the minimum. 2-at least a 2" compression driver for the highs 3-high efficiency ion less than 96 dB 4-all the above plus bi-amplification, with a bi-amplifie large system you have a good chance of reaching your goal of explosive dynamics. I have one such system, it is JBL 4350, a four way bi-amplified monster. I mainly listen to classical, these JBL's can do justice to uncompressed orchestral recording like no other speaker with a very transparent full range sound.
Kosst you say "at the cost of focussed dispersion". I find it odd that you regard that as a negative. I myself and plenty of others that I know regard that as one of the positives of a horn. That way you get less unwanted room interactions. Definitely not good for entertaining though as the sweet spot is small. Anyhow I understand that you're saying you don't like horn's and I'm completely fine with that, to each their own. It's just when you're saying things that are blatantly false that I feel the need to set the record straight.
This has been a fascinating thread to read, and I have to give thanks to Kosst for his/her insistence and multiples of repetition which has allowed for an exceptional discussion with educational and informative (at least for me) posts by many who obviously know and understand horn speakers so well. So Thank You K for being so minded on the subject...it has allowed for a very open discussion, in response.
I did a lengthy in-home demo of the Volti Audio Rivals, a speaker that has been recommended to the OP. This was my first time living with a horn-hybrid speaker. The 15 inch paper cone woofer operates below 400HZ (I believe, but I’m not 100% on this). It is an excellent speaker and offers the OP a check on all four of his attributes.
My 2ch audio room is very ’normal in size (read not large).
The Volti’s had very good imaging, and actually imaged slightly better than my current speakers.They also disappeared in the room and were not ’honky’ or ’shouty.’ Size-wise they also felt normal in my room. They are also very flexible with respect to room placement and with easy tuning via the external crossover network by resistors and the capacitor. The internals are easily accessible and very well laid out.
Early in the thread there was a mention of the Tekton Design Double Impacts as a recommendation. These are my current speakers (with the basic upgrade). I can also recommend these for all four attributes as well.
I enjoyed the Rivals so much that I am open to one of Greg Roberts’ full horn designs, which require some time as I need to save up for it.
Both the Rivals and the Double Impacts are great speakers, but are different.
Again a massive word of thanks to so many who have posted such valuable information and for your experience and wisdom on the topic.
Kosst. Actually it's not my cult, my speakers are not all out horn's. Only the tweeter is a horn, the mid and bass are regular dynamic cones. But I have owned quite a few speakers many mid efficiency like Vander Steen, reference 3A, Dynaco, Tannoy's, Polk SDA's Ive owned low efficiency panels such as the Apogee divas with high-powered solid-state And I have owned hybrid horns but where the horn covers most of the frequency spectrum down to about 200 Hz. Trouble is I had to blend a woofer and a sub to those and felt like I couldn't get it 100% so I am moving away from them. I just can't stand to listen to you postulate about something you obviously know absolutely nothing about. My pet peeve is going on these forums and seeing all this misinformation by people who speak with total authority. Just admit you're wrong and that you've had a very little or perhaps no experience with horns.
Geoff, thanks for the link, very interesting. The Tool disc I have is on the low end of the medium scale, and is audible. Clearly many of their albums are better, and I will check out some of them. It also shows that the upper range dynamics of the DT album is better. What is really interesting is how differently the same album can rank, depending on the release.
Actually, Tool’s recorded works are relatively uncompressed dynamic range wise, see link below for the list of Tool recordings including reissues and their relative dynamic ranges, from the Official Dynamic Range Database. Green is good, red is bad.
I'm guessing you've never even listened to Tools recorded work. Dynamically compressed doesn't at all describe it.
More assumption from you, what a surprise. I have "Opiate" and went back and revisited it after this comment. I immediately followed it up with Dream Theater's "Awake". If that is your frame of reference for dynamics and recording quality, your frame of reference sucks. My comment about listening to dynamically compressed rock was based on that recording and after listening to it again, I stand by that comment.
I kinda doubt the OP is still paying attention. His aspirations for a system aren't much different than my own
Who are you, Carnac the magnificent?
but has turned this thread into a soap box for those to extoll the virtue of their own opinions.
Clearly, self awareness is not a strong suit for you. You do it on every thread you participate in.
I'd have ignored this posting half way through page 1 had I originated it.
Too bad you didn't originate this posting, it would have saved reading a bunch of whining from someone that clearly does not know what he/she does not know.
Low level listening dynamics are clearly a virtue of high efficiency, large displacement speakers (not always horn systems). At normal listening levels (70-85 db), the gap is very narrow for most really good speakers, irrespective of design philosophy. When you start getting above 90 db, many, many home speakers begin compressing. My current Meadowlark Shearwater Hot Rods, though ony 88 db efficient, are very credible dynamically up to that point. Comparing them to my previous Vapor Audio Arcus was enlightening. The compression is subtle at first and becomes stark as the volume goes up from there. Why did I get rid of the Arcus? for my taste, they require a subwoofer and I could never get the blend perfect. 90 plus percent of the time it was seamless, but when it wasn't, I hated it. If you listen at all above the levels mentioned above, you owe it to yourself to listen to one of the high efficiency systems mentioned in comparison. You will be surprised how early many systems begin compressing and understand what that really sounds like. It truly is an eye/ear opener.
Kosst it's not that I think they are the only viable way, it's that when you post blatantly wrong information that I feel the need to correct it. This way when people read these threads in the future hopefully they won't be misled. There is far too much misinformation about horns out there already.
They are Simon Mears Audio Uccello’s, which I’d by happy to recommend as well. They’re hardly to be found used, however (a new pair is priced at approx. $15,000, bought directly from Mr. Mears without any intervening distributor), and roll off below some 60Hz which may lead some to augment them with a sub. They sport a measured ~106dB sensitivity.
To the OP: forgot to recommend the Dutch-based, Stage Accompany speakers, specifically the model M-57 (if it can be had new close to your budget). The larger M-59 would be too expensive, likely even used. There’s also Casta Acoustics Model C, if you can dig them up used.
Perhaps someone should start a thread regarding horn speakers. This " love it or hate it " impression has to be explored, I think. Personally, I don’t like in your face sound nor do I like laid back sound, horns or not.
To truly address horn speakers at least we have to maintain the distinction between the hybrids and the all-horns, but strictly speaking the latter should have the main focus - otherwise, to my mind, it would be doing (all-)horns a disservice, certainly in an effort to narrow down more precisely their sonic imprinting as true horn speakers. Poster @buellrider97 poses a good question above in asking: "Do the high quality horn systems move the air with the authority of underhung voice coils and massive power?," because it calls out comparing quality horns to quality (under-hung voice coil) direct radiating speakers in an area which, in essence, points to revealing differences between them in more general terms. This also goes to show what could be the problematic issue in combining horns with directs radiating transducers, and that at least some of the negativity aimed at "horns" could be rooted in this. Obviously I can’t speak for all let alone base my impressions on an all-encompassing breadth of speakers, horns or not, but going by some monitor speakers in particular (like larger ATC’s, Stage Accompany and JBL’s) and a general larger segment of direct radiating speakers, I find them to exhibit a rather "pulsating," sharply defined, sometimes a bit disjointed (not the ATC’s and SA’s), and in many cases (not the aforementioned monitors) a slight leanness to the upper bass/lower midrange. All-horn speakers by comparison (i.e.: my own speakers, WE, Altec, Living Voice, etc.) can possess more of a kind of a floating/fluid/effortless, warm, enveloping sphere-like crispness, and a sense of uninhibited presence and overall size. The sound here seems less defined (though without lack of detail), and more like a large vibrating, again, sonic sphere in front of you. Contrary to what many believe I find all-horns to perhaps be the most easy-on-the-ears sounding speakers (not to be confused with ’pleasing’ as such), but those who mayn't think this way could in reality be referring to hybrids (or not). The uninhibited presence I’m referring to is not to be confused with in-your-face, a very important distinction here, although I’m aware many describe "horns" to sound like that (and I’m sure they can be right in assuming so based on other speakers). Coming about the sonic impressions of hybrids (horns + direct radiators in some configuration) to my ears generally point in a different, third direction. The last hybrid I listened to more closely were the JBL K2 S9900’s, and I found them to be all-around dynamic but not compellingly coherent, and speaking with different "voices" - particularly in the bass and central to upper midrange. In that regard I find them to mimic in a sense my impressions of other hybrids. Just my $0.02.
Inna…are you female? Not that it matters really, but I get a female vibe from you and since there are so few females around this forum I'd simply like to know. Thanks.
Perhaps someone should start a thread regarding horn speakers. This " love it or hate it " impression has to be explored, I think. Personally, I don't like in your face sound nor do I like laid back sound, horns or not.
The OP has a $10K budget and shouldn’t have much trouble finding speakers that meet his criteria, horn loaded or otherwise.
Every speaker design has its tradeoffs. If it’s not low-level dynamics, it’s tone, coherency, imaging or something. I currently have 3 pairs of speakers in 3 systems and each have their strengths and weaknesses. In Kosst’s defense, horns tend to have a love it or hate it sound, despite all the things they can do well. While I like some horn speakers, I understand why others don’t. I think everyone here can agree that some speakers can manage surprising feats, despite their size and lack of efficiency. For some, a pair of KEF LS50s would be plenty "dynamic." After all, that’s a subjective term, and for which system context must be considered. For my tastes, a pair of Spendor SP100s or Harbeth M40s would meet all my needs, but someone out there would certainly find them anemic by their standards.
I am a bit cautious about generalizing about various types of drivers and speakers; there are really good and bad implementations of all types. Given this caveat, I do agree that large coned woofers can be very fast and dynamic and deliver tone. I have heard terrific 18" drivers that can do this. They typically have light paper cones and pleated paper surrounds. Despite their size, they are not designed to go very deep in the bass range (the pleated paper surround restricts the range of fore and aft movement). But, properly implemented, they can deliver very tuneful bass. The high efficiency of many such drivers make them suitable for use with low-powered amps (my favorite kinds of amps).
The kind of dynamics the OP wants is less a function of deep bass than what the speaker can do in the midrange. When done right, horn/compression drivers are hard to beat in this department. They can sound extremely dynamic at surprisingly LOW volume. I actually prefer large horn systems playing at low volume than when they are cranked up very loud (they tend to "shout" at high volume. That might account for the popularity of huge horn systems in Japan where the size makes no obvious sense, given the small rooms. But, horns sound good in small rooms (my guess is their directivity reduces the influence of the side and back walls) and because they can be played at low volume, they would work in Japanese apartments.
I've also heard startlingly dynamic sounds at not crazy volume levels from some panel type speakers. I recently heard stacked Quad 57s with custom active crossovers to two custom tube amps at the Capital Audiofest deliver great dynamics. The Sanders Sound electrostatics I've heard were also extremely dynamic.
Question is do horns, generally speaking, produce life-like dynamics or exaggerated ’life-unlike’ dynamics ? As I understand, 15" woofer is difficult to make fast, maybe couple of 10" - 12" would be better ?
Generally horns, not least all-horn speakers (let’s make that distinction clear, as most speakers referred to as "horns" are actually hybrids where the lower to central midrange and down is typically reproduced via direct radiating bass/mids units, hereby giving up sensitivity) will more readily approach life-like dynamics compared to direct radiating alternatives. But let us be careful not to turn things upside down; horns don’t or can’t exaggerate into "life-unlike" dynamics but only, once again, approach and even close to emulate life-like dynamics. It’s the smaller, less efficient direct radiating speakers that comes further away from even approaching this threshold, if you will. Any "exaggeration" felt as such (from horns) would be either "modes" as coloration or distortion at very high levels that would somehow give the sensation of a stressed or forced imprinting (which is very unlike typical quality horn-reproduction); or, the dynamics at play from horns are so much more in the same vein as life-like dynamics that any comparison to smaller, direct radiating speakers (which by virtue of a more general experience can easily become a false reference where dynamics are involved) would invariably be rather startling, and perhaps lead to the conclusion of horn dynamics being "exaggerated."
If we’re talking horn bass, which is rare nowadays, a 15" driver would likely sport a light diaphragm (typically paper) with a relatively small and lightweight voice coil (i.e.: no larger than 3," likely between 2-3"), have low excursion, and likely be placed in a sealed chamber. Horn bass sensitivity easily sits at 100+ dB’s, generally around 105 dB’s give or take, so imagine the power needed to feed this unit generating sound at a typical 65-85 dB listening level. We’re talking increments of watts, and at truly very high levels approaching 105-110 dB that driver would only need 1-5 watts, whereas the more general example of direct radiating speakers would need up to 100 times more power, power indeed of a magnitude where thermal impact is given at leads to compression. A horn-loaded 15" paper woofer has no problems with speed, even a non-hornloaded similar-ish unit faces no issues here.
@kosst_amojan
....because everybody wants gigantic, hulking crates for speakers, a big honky sound, and 110dB, right? This doesn’t strike me as a debate so much about dynamic range as it seems about just blaring, deafeningly loud regardless of the quality. The foundation of excellent imaging is flat response across a broad range of volume. You cannot have excellent imaging without that characteristic. Huge speakers are very well known for sonically falling apart when operated below their optimum power. Speakers with smaller drivers remain much more coherent across a much wider power range at the cost of some dynamics at the their limits. It’s a trade off and very few speakers deviate far from that truth. That’s all I’m trying to say and have acknowledged here.
It’s a misconception that owners of big horn speakers would generally and necessarily favor playing at 110 dB’s. What’s less known, if one knows horn speakers more "intimately" than mere exhibition experience, is their oftentimes excellent abilities to "come alive" at lower volumes (better so than non-horn speakers), which is an important asset for several reasons. Big size horn speakers also emulates live acoustic sound more closely than smaller direct radiating dittos, end of story. That’s a means in itself if you’re into a natural representation and can appreciate a live acoustic reference, regardless of playback level. And honky sound? Some horns can do that, but others don’t. You should seek more out for audition, and hear this for yourself - unbiased. Regarding the imaging thing: to be perfectly honest, the narrow baffle sales speech does nothing to me, because I can’t relate to or identify its so-called virtues - and it’s not for any lack of trying. My own speakers, which are all-horns (that is, from some 60Hz and up, below which a sub takes over), are 80 cm’s wide (over 30") and the enclosures are by no means diffraction friendly by that school of thought (Peak Consult speakers on the other hand, if you know them, image in ways that close to no other speakers I've heard can replicate, but whether it's really more natural I'd question). However, they image wonderfully, and I’d be very glad to let you hear for yourself. It’s not that I can’t appreciate non-horn and smaller speakers, on the contrary, it’s just really not "my thing" anymore as something I would actually own. Been there done that. Having said that I respect your choice of speakers and preference here, but it seems to me much of your inclination towards horn speakers is heavily biased from a ground of limited experience (and perhaps under less than ideal circumstances?), but if you should still come to the same conclusion with more widespread experience under better conditions, fair enough - to each his own.
Sorry kosst, again pretty much every point in your last post is wrong. Horns sound better at all volumes due to much lower distortion. The driver simply is not working hard. You need to get out and hear some good horns!
^Many huge speakers require very little power and volume for excellent dynamics. This would be glaringly obvious if you were to compare some volume-matched Altecs and some narrow-baffle tower speakers at around 70 db. What you’d find is that the lower efficiency tower speakers require the louder volume to come alive.
Some consider dynamics as simply chest-punching upper bass. That’s what the narrow baffle, 6" woofer tower speakers tend to do well.
What the large horn speakers can do (with only a few watts) is create a realistic orchestral crescendo, or a kick drum that gets eerily close to the real thing. Yes, they have to move a larger woofer, but the woofers typically have very light paper diaphragms and are designed for low excursion. This allows them to produce very fast bass. Subs OTOH are usually designed with much heavier diaphragms and suspensions. They’re also designed for long excursion. This is why comparing a 15" horn loaded bass driver to a typical subwoofer is useless.
Anyway, the most dynamic speakers are large speakers. As others have mentioned, it’s basic physics. It’s why most "class A" full range speakers are monolith size.
This studio was built only a few years ago and is similar in setup to Mark Knopfler’s studio. Those are 15 inch woofers - all of them! And that delivers up to 121 db SPL continuous at 0.3% THD. Surprisingly, the low volume performance is even lower in distortion - so big and powerful can play incredible detail too.
These drivers all get broken in at the factory with a serious stress test
Not going to comment on horns here because do not have enough experience beyond PA systems to add any value.
I have heard some impressive dynamics and excellent imaging from medium sized tower speakers with cone drivers that can be had for under ten grand new or used. Many suggested here already. Here’s my list:
Focals - 1038 Be II or Sopra 3 - used Wilson - later Watt Puppy or Sophia models - used (good choice IMO) bigger ProAc Response models - used PMC - Fact 12 - used (pair on Agon now just above your budget for nearly 1/2 price new, FYI) Monitor Audio Platinum 300-II - used Vandersteen - Quattro, maybe, preferably CT model Revel Ultima Studio 2 - used - very good with right amplification
none of these are going to be as efficient as horns of course, but you will not need a monster amp to drive most of them to achieve what you are looking for. I don’t know what you are using now, but these are all very good for around ten grand, give or take a few big ones.
Question is do horns, generally speaking, produce life-like dynamics or exaggerated 'life-unlike' dynamics ? As I understand, 15" woofer is difficult to make fast, maybe couple of 10" - 12" would be better ? I would not expect any $3k speakers with any source and amps to give me a real scale, $30k would be a more realistic figure, I guess. Having said that, I read some review of the Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated where the reviewer, after he had done his tests, tried this $16k integrated with $500 Elac monitor speakers, just for fun. He was close to shock - he didn't expect them to be able to play like that. Speakers need great amps.
^ There are plenty of large cone drivers can be driven to high levels with low power.
Many of the ubiquitous 3-way, narrow baffle, ~$3k towers can do dynamics fairly well, but I haven't come across any that can produce sound with the sheer scale of something like Klipsch Cornwalls.
Not sure the OP mentioned the room size he/she intends to use whatever speakers meet his/her four criteria.
I think the smaller the room, the more I would agree with kosst_amojan and rbstehno that you don't need giant woofers for great dynamics. Well designed smaller woofers in numbers are rather potent.
However, I think extremely large rooms or even outdoor venues where one is wanting to top 100+ decibel levels is where the point about physics and horn-loaded speakers as suggested by analogluvr and phusis becomes more prevalent.
For a modestly sized home room space, I don't think 15 inch woofers and large horns are needed to achieve what the OP desires. On the other hand, if you're wanting to fill an "auditorium" with sound, I think you would have to go with multiple 15 inch woofers and horns.
Your Focal 936 are excellent but 3 x 6.5 inch woofers with 1 inch voice coil and 4mm Vmax simply do not compare to a typical pro 15 inch woofer with 3 or 4 inch voice coil and 10 mm Vmax. In surface area alone, one 15 inch woofer is roughly equivalent to all six of your woofers and this larger surface area coupled with the greater linear excursion from a huge motor and also combined with a much larger box means up to four times more air and about eight times more SPL power.
The large voice coil also dissipates heat much more effectively than a tweeter sized voice coil. This translates also to higher SPL and dynamics.
There is a very noticeable difference from the mostly upper bass that you hear from your speakers - you really feel the kick drum on a big speaker - a kind of room air compression much more like the sound of a real 24" kick drum.
Using highly compressed rock music to make the proclamation that your speakers don't dynamically compress music......absolutely brilliant. BTW, I like and listen to a lot of rock music. The Focals at 92 db efficient are likely very good at dynamics up to a certain point. No one hear is saying otherwise. Trying to say that they are the equal dynamically to any of the Volti Audio speakers, which are from 99 to 104 db efficient, is just plain foolishness. Again, not saying that the Focals are not good, just these are on a different level. You need to hear them to understand the difference. Dynamics and ease of presentation at any volume. And if you are comparing the sound quality to any PA system, all I can say is go seek out and hear a pair. Absolutely no contest. If I could afford the Alura, I would be permanently done with buying speakers. One of the times I heard them at Axpona, I was sitting right next to a speaker designer listening to them. I asked him what he thought and his only comment was, "Those are fantastic". 100% agree with him.
Hi , this is great stuff . Question to the Horn Guys , you’re way above my skill level , so please share . Do the high quality horn systems move the air with the authority of underhung voice coils and massive power ? My experience is limited , but on this type system , can you feel the drum kick on your chest ? Is this an Apples and Oranges thing ? This is a sincere question based on my lack of experience . As a youngster my Grandfather had tube systems with big EV and Altec stuff . It was a sweet , room filling sound , but it didn’t create this sort of “ Air Pressure “ sensation that comes with good live sound or a huge SS rig . Please share as I’m here to learn , not pontificate ( I’m not that smart ). Also I apologize for stepping all over this thread , but with knowledgeable sound engineers and horn experts sharing , this is a wealth of information . BTW it seems everybody agrees on Tannoy , that says a lot too . Respectfully, Mike.
I can sympathize with Kosst over his skepticism about horns. For many years I felt exactly the same way---all horns I had heard had an annoying "shouting" coloration that I just couldn't get past. And I still feel that way about many horns including for example any speaker with an Altec 511 or 811 horn. But there are horns and drivers that don't suffer from these colorations. The breakthrough for me was hearing a Western Electric 32A horn and then later living with the Altec 32A and 32B horns which are close cousins to the WE. With proper compression driver and crossover design, speakers with these horns do not have any of the horn colorations that bothered me so much in the past. I have also heard other horns that don't suffer from traditional horn colorations (such as Emilar EH-500 and YL Acoustic horns) and I am sure there are some commercial horn speakers that are fine too but my experience with commercial speakers is too limited to make specific recommendations.
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