Kits: not afraid at all. build quite a few back then (very nice finish Eton 10 (in the 80's; GREAT sounding Focal Onyx (still dreaming of it, actually though about recreating it). Recently my sub: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HPeV4E7xUvmPwq5cBFlI633_yk-dXJy2/view?usp=drive_link
Sound Stage and Imaging
I love speakers who 'paint a big picture' (I am literally closing my eyes and trying to SEE a picture). Therefore I THINK I like to see IMAGING and BIG SOUND STAGE. And also like DYNAMICS.
Being frugal (just not willing to spent audiophile level money on it), I love to persuit 'bang for buck' solutions in general.
With above goals in mind for a speaker: what hits the marks in the low fi (audiphile scale) $2k (used or new) budget range. (I have 2 setups: one HUGE room, one 20x20).
107 responses Add your response
@kraftwerkturbo I would probably go for the 2TD-X - still inexpensive compared to "finished" speakers | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
@mijostyn I was partially kidding with the screws. Just a bit unusual to see them as exposed as they are in any speaker over say $100 pair. Most would make the REAR panel removable (with 'under' mounted bass driver). | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
@grislybutter thanks for the list/table. I am benchmarking against my Nautilus 804. And which CSS are you referring to? the one in the table CSS Criton 1TD-X?
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
You remark is sarcasm not an answer... My post only said that there is acoustics explanation for imaging and soundstage dimension ... The gear synergy and design play an important role too ... The electrical and mecanical embeddings controls of the system too ... I also said that no DSP which is only a useful tool can replace the factors and parameters above nor replace the ears training by the way ... In the opposite DSP work the better when HRTF function and inner ears measures are done ... I also said that any stereo system at any price will suffer from a lost of spatial qualities information by crosstalk interference in the ears/brain information processing, then no DSP can correct effectively this without timbre degradation in the process save the BACCH filters DSP not the one you play with 😊... You said that i must stick to headphones which is sarcasm devoid of arguments as is your dogmatic usual posture after reading the DSP manual owner as scriptures ... Acoustics and psycho-acoustics rule the gear/room relation, Your DSP is not enough ... Imaging dont appear by luck save perhaps in your life not in mine , imaging appear once the synergy between the pieces of gear is given , and with a system where the room acoustics and the speakers are coupled rightfully as it is explained in acoustics articles or books ... And the only DSP mandatory is the BACCH filters because no other DSP suppress crosstalk without degradation of timbre .. Inform yourself before insulting as an answer ... By the way because i dont like to be perceived as an imbecile i NEVER post one line sarcasm or insult detrimental to someone , save in a friendly humor communication ... NEVER because i CAN give sound arguments and if i could not i recognize my errors and mistakes instead of insulting or mocking ... By the way your sarcasm in another post about headphones owner reveal the abyss of your dogmatic ignorance about acoustics and your snobism about audiophile matters ...
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
You might take a second to look at the way the woofer is mounted, from behind. In order to get it in or out you have to have a removable panel, Since the speakers are typically mounted on stands and you can see around them what better place to put the panel, under the grill cloth. The people who like to keep a grill off do not appear to mind the look of screws. Exactly why they decided to use a woofer that had to mounted this way you would have to ask Harbeth. They are British and have a reason for everything.......be it nonsensical or not. They did invent the LP12 a device that could rip the heart out of any audiophile. On the other hand Adrian Newey is British and the greatest race car designer that ever lived. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I am a huge fan of imaging and soundstage. That is what sucks me into the music, and provides me with a deeper connection with the music. That being said, the best way to spend your $2000.00, is a DIY kit, of which, there are plenty that are quite high end. Building a kit, will yield a speaker that will easily rival a commercially available speaker at 3-5X the price. Big bang for the buck can't get any greater than DIY! Since you are not spending money on paying for marketing, advertising, shipping an entire speaker, so much more of your money is going into the actual parts. For example, GR Research NX-Studio kit is (with all the crossover upgrades) $1345.00. Don't feel like doing your own woodwork? Buy the flatpacks for another $379.00. and your a bit under your budget, but the end results will sound like a commercially available speaker for substantially more. The planar magnetic tweeter is semi open baffler, so they create a huge open soundstage, and very specific imaging.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
if your budget is 2K, you may get used up to 4K or more | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Harbeth P3: did they get a bulk deal on screws? Or are they just try hard to make the front as ugly as possible? I do like the idea of small (2 way or even single) speaker since I am "sold" on subwoofer (even my Nautilus 804, surely not considered being 'weak down there' benefitted from the 18" sub helping under 50 Hz).
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
If the gear system dont present synergy problem between the pieces to begin with ... If you can control the room acoustic timing of the directed and reflected waves and some control of the pressure zone distribution with a good ratio between absorption,reflection and diffusion... If you control vibrations/resonance of the speakers... Your system will create a relatively good imaging and a soundstage out of the speakers plane ... If you can add the crosstalk filters of The BACCH system it will improve a lot because the problems of ALL STEREO SYSTEMS at any price is the crosstalk effect on the working brain/ears to compute sound source width dimensions and position in your room.. In a word digital usual DSP is not enough at all, contrary of what says myjostyn, and the most ridiculous claim ever : imaging is NEVER achieved by luck or haphazard owners actions , but by acoustic good conditions and gear synergy for sure ... I know because BEFORE implementing acoustics necessary condition with my speakers/room , and this two times with different room and different amplifiers and speakers, i did not have imaging well done neither a big soundstage encompassing the listener position ... Digital DSP with room correction may help for sure, it is a tool, but cannot work replacing room acoustics nor control speakers vibrations/resonance, nor replace the ears specific measures And HRTF measures ... The best imaging will be reach with a DSP as the BACCH filters , once the room is acoustically done , the speakers response and the inner ears will be measured and the HTRF measures done , once for all , and used to recreate the spatial qualities lost in any stereo installation at any price because of speakers crosstalk impeding perception... Simple digital DSP will never replace the BACCH nor replace room acoustics nor the necessary ears and HTRF measures ...Period...
Imaging dont result from luck by trial and errors or haphazard actions or accidents.... By what will appear as luck but is not, some room content and geometry and topology and dimensions are easier to work with ...Thats all ....Because all room will need acoustics conditions answered and worked with the right way ... There is no luck in any acoustical manifested phenomena ... We must use the principles and work the system/room ... Using digital DSP will not replace synergy between all pieces of gear , will not decrease vibrations, nor correct the electrical noise floor and will not transform a bad room acoustics in a better one ... it will put a band-aid on the physical perceived acoustics wounds ...It will not suppress crosstalk ... And if it does it , some DSP does it, it will be with no comparison with the BACCH filters ... The best imaging is not so hard to achieve BECAUSE it does not result from luck but from acoustic applied principle and synergy, and mechanical and electrical embeddings controls ... Digital DSP alone, without inner ears measures and HTRF measures which must be used and applied in an already acoustically controlled room, is not enough ... Even the BACCH dsp will need physical room acoustic to work optimally ...And no DSP correct the lack of gear synergy .;..
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The best imaging is very hard to achieve. It is impossible in some rooms. The speakers have to be in symmetrical identical environments and have to have identical frequency response curves from 100 Hz to 12 kHz. This is difficult to achieve without digital signal processing. There can not be any serious phase aberrations and all drivers have to be time aligned. Full range loudspeakers with subwoofers are the best way to achieve this. The fewer analog crosses the better. Digital crossovers are better but rare. There is only one preamp that has them and that is the DEQX Pre 8. There are commercial dBx DriveRacks that could easily be used in a home system. Sanders uses one with his Model 10 loudspeaker. Coming up with an entirely analog system that images at the state of the art is a matter of sheer luck. I use to sell and install systems in a previous life and I have heard only two such systems do it. It also requires the right live recordings. With studio recordings image "depth" is a matter of how much echo is applied. I view studio recordings as a different form of art, fun in it's own right, surrealistic. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
You want Magnepan 3.7i or better. I do not like Martin Logan ESLs. The curved panel is a problem for any number of reasons. Sound Labs makes a much better ESL and you can get them in 8 or 9 foot tall versions which will fit to most ceilings forming line sources down to 1 Hz! Speaker placement depends on the room. You need to put sound absorption at every first reflection point. An excellent modern LS3 5A is the Harbeth P3. I recently set up a system with them crossing to subwoofers at 100 Hz. As we say in America, they kick ass! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ADS "or pair of ADS L2020s, (which will fill your huge room) and / or ADS L1530s or L1230s. ": can't even find a PHOTO online of ADS L2020. The mid size LDS (L880 etc) look nice (I do like dome midrange, have a pair of Infinity Quantum 2 in parts in the basement, never heard them (no time to go over them, redo xovers). Can someone linke to ADS L2020? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
With soundstage and imaging in mind, what helps with regard to the room: a) hard vs soft BEHIND the speakers b) hard vs soft OPPOSITE the speakers c) hard vs soft SIDE of speakers d) close or far wall behind e) close or far wall - sides f) close or far wall - back
Where 'hard" is reflective, non absorbent. Where for now to start NOT dipole, etc. speakers. Generic or General statement (each speaker is different, but some general rules apply). | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
My Ohm Walsh 2000s do what you want, as long as you don’t overdamp your room. $3800/pair new, but any larger Ohm Walsh speakers will produce similar results, and used, are often within your budget. Stick to models such as the 4 or 5, XO designation is a plus. Also 3000, 4000 or 5000, but they might be budget busters. The original, large F models are out there, and even refurbished pairs could be within your budget, but need powerful amps to sing. The future of the company is in the air since the death of founder John Strohbeen in October, but there are people out there besides Ohm that will repair these speakers if needed. I doubt you will do better within your budget based on your priorities. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
IMO you are just not going to get tall, wide, and deep soundstage anywhere near $2,000 a pair. In that price range I'd think about Zu Audio Dirty Weekend VI speakers $1,600 a pair in black....or a few $$ more for wood finishes; 95 DB so really easy to drive, and a really fun speaker. They also have a large stand mount version called the DWX.....but I've only heard the floor stander. A friend has a pair in a listening room that I would call underwhelming, and they still sound really really good.....fun, dynamic, good imaging, and wide (if not deep) soundstage. Steve Guttenberg has a nice review here
Also might try the Polk Audio Reserve 600 about $1,500 a pair, punch way above their price point....and should be really easy to demo. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
@kraftwerkturbo The Mini Lores don’t have the tweeter array that really makes the Tekton speakers a great value for your money. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Post removed | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
When I was looking at speakers I was always looking for a wide sound stage and when I heard kef r11's non meta I didn't just get a wide sound stage but I got a deep sound stage I never knew what a deep sound stage sounded like until I heard them. They are now in my home and I can tell you that you can hear a drummer or a piano player 10 ft behind the speakers with a stand-up bass up front.. live jazz is very good for this demo or any well-mastered jazz album.. you can find these used on eBay | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
A nice pair of Vandersteen model 2 or 3 can be had used in that range. They are fiddely to set up meaning they really need space from the front wall, to be placed far apart with little to no toe in. They are capable of achieving a huge soundstage with wonderful imaging of done property. I agree that speakers are the biggest part of the solution but some attention needs to be paid to electronics as well. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Soundstage is all about room interaction (wall reflections). It is important to have even dispersion as you get off axis so the reflections don’t color the tonal balance of the speaker. For $2000 used you can get a pair of Revel F208. They measure exceptionally well and throw a huge sound stage and can play real loud. The bass could use a sub for my tastes but a slightly high bass roll off is their only flaw in their price range. They put a lot of speakers costing a lot more to shame. There are a few pairs on audio mart in your price range.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Head over to the "ADS and Braun Speakers Fan" Facebook page and try to score a well-cared for pair of ADS L2020s, (which will fill your huge room) and / or ADS L1530s or L1230s. These are considered the pinnacle of ADS design and produce great imaging and sound stage, especially if you bi-amp them. Many of the units on the market have been recapped by the legendary Richard So, a former designer at ADS, who is still repairing and re-capping ADS speakers from his workshop in Arizona.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
hickamore: check hifishark. There's a pair for $2500 now and, if you look under SOLD section, you'll see a good deal many have sold in the $2000 range or less, and I've bought many pairs of older speakers without crossover issues. I'm sure it's something to consider but a demo should tell you whether there's an problem or not. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
If you will be listening at reasoanble loudness (<90dB), I suggest DIY Linkwitz LXmini + Phoenix (alt) OB-subs - in that price range. Like being on the stage when listening to acoustic performances, and asking yourself, where does the soundstage end? However, they are not best at reproducing a rock concert front row experience - for that, find some Tekton DI's. If you want deep bass authority without seperate subs, try GoldenEar Triton series (anything 3+ and above - price used). | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Good speakers and good dac will not be enough for a natural big enveloping soundstage with a natural timbre and good imaging ... The main element for the retrieval of spatial information encoded in the recording will be the acoustic relation and controls over ears/speakers/room ... No dac no speakers can replace this ... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
For your budget --> dynamics, soundstage, etc --> try the JBL Studio 698
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_109S698W/JBL-Studio-698-Wood.html |
