Sota or Technics

When I bought the Technics 1200GR (Jan/Feb. 2018), this is what I posted in another forum:

" I just recently bought the Technics SL 1200GR, which I paired with my Goldring MM 1042 cartridge. I change the the stock headshell with a Yamamoto Acoustic craft Carbon fiber headshell HS-4 HS-4 NEW that I bought from Japan. This TT replaced a Music Hall 5.1 that was paired with the Goldring cartridge.

You can only buy through dealers. My local dealer have both versions and I auditioned both models the G and the GR through state of the art speakers, cables, pre/pro, you name it. I also was auditioning speaker because I thought that my JBL L890 towers were too lowly. Two things happened:

1. After I listened the Technic SL 1200GR paired with my cartridge while listening to my mobile fidelity album of Santana Abraxas I knew right there and then that I did not need to spent $4000 on the 1200G, the difference is so minimal that is not worthy, unless you are too anal retentive. And when my unit came, and they assemble it, after the Yamamoto Acoustic craft Carbon fiber head shell HS-4 HS-4 was installed the sound got even better, so much better than the stock headshell that the owner of my local dealership, immediately ask me for a link of the Yamamoto dealer in Japan. Once at home I switch the stock platter mat with a Nottingham mat that I was using on my Music Hall. All I can say is that the sound stage open up so much that I could not believe it, and I had to call my wife and sat her in from of the system to verify if it was my brain playing tricks with me, she notice the difference also. So the 1200GR for me is all I need, I listened to other TTs brands as well (in the thousands of dollars). This TT is way, way better than my Music Hall.

2. I auditioned Focal, Bowers and Wilkins, Elac, and others ranging from 4000 to 15000 dollars, and yes, you can tell the difference from my JBLs ($1700 original price), but if was only after you are in the $ 8000 and up that I was able to discern such a change as to say: yes this is worthy. So I kept my JBls, because they sound so good in my system that there was no need to spent $ 8000 to 15000 to get some improvement. moral of the story: The JBls are not so lowly anymore after my snub attempt to trade up in speakers.

In closing the new Technics are very good. I also used to be under the impression that Belt Drives were better than Direct Drive; not anymore, not at all."

There are excellent examples of both belt drive and direct drive from various manufacturers, and poor examples of each.
To judge the arm quality however based purely on visual observation is absurd. Technics has a reputation for having made, and still making, some superb arms. The one in the new crop of 1200’s is no exception. The bearings are very high quality, and the geometry is spot on. It’s fine if one doesn’t like it, but at least give it fair test first. The motor systems are beyond reproach.
I personally have owned many excellent belt and direct drive tables. My current Technics tables include a 1200MkII, 1200GAE, and an SP-25 with an SME 310 10" arm. Cart is an Ortofon Cadenza Blue which I move between the tables. Past tables includes Michell Gyro SE w/RB300, Syncrodec, and some higher end Pro-jects and Thorens tables with their stock arms.

I also want to add that about 10 years ago I purchased an armboard (I forget the UK brand) made for Technics tables, to install Rega arms. The listening sessions ended after one week and I put back the 1200MkII’s original arm which I quickly deduced was far, far better than people give it credit for.

The one thing I can say is that the Technics tables don’t have that lush, soft, warm "vinyl" sound (or at least they have less of it). They sound much more immediate, with deep, tight and tuneful bass, and an extremely neutral midrange. The best of the bunch above is the 1200GAE, followed by the SP-25 rig (stock SH-15B3 plinth by the way). And, up until about 25 years ago, I worked in high end audio retail and sold SOTA. Nice tables. Well built, at least the bigger models. However if I had to pick today, the Technics wins hands down all the way. The 1200GR which I have used at trade shows punches way above its weight and exhibits all the sonic qualities I describe above.  It is the sound that appeals to my tastes, and technically it is a formidable player.

The "sound of a turntable" is the sound of a cartridge (first). Owned SP-10 mk2, SP-20, modified SL1200mkII (for over 25 years) and big collection of cartridges and tonearms, I still have no idea what is the sound of the drive itself. Each time I change a cartridge or tonearm the sound is different. I ended up using another direct drive (Luxman PD-444) because in my opinion this is the best "integrated" DD, I mean the one with a "plinth" you can’t change, designed for two tonearms. But again, once the arm/cartridge is changed the sound is different, so I don’t understand when people are talking about the sound of a turntable drive itself. I wouldn’t change any of my reference DD turntables (currently Lux PD-444, Victor tt-101, Denon DP-80) for a Belt Drive. Superb usability and long life is about Direct Drive type. Lower or higher torque DD doesn’t matter for me, they are all great.

Technics EPA-100 mk2 is one of the best tonearms ever made.

Rubbish, it is a boat anchor

OMA video about boat anchor plinth for the best Direct Drive available today. Watch here. 

And the beat goes on…

Well to throw a wrench in my original post, I ended up going with neither. I had the opportunity to borrow a friend's MoFi Ultra deck and ended up loving it! so that's what I brought into my cave. I am more than pleased with it. Super solid build quality, amazing dynamics. Its warm and revealing. I'm playing discs I haven't listen to in years. 

 What is a mo-fi  ultra deck? Please enlighten us.

@lewm , it is a MoFi Ultradeck. Get with it old man.

Although I am a Rega guy and switched from DD 20 years ago (linear tracking Phase Linear 8000 and never looked back after a $500 Music Hall MMF5  blew it away), I agree with @chakster that hearing a turntable is at the bottom of the analogue chain. IMHO it’s arm first, then cartridge/phono stage, then table. Especially if it is well isolated from vibrations.

i as told years later that my PL8K may not have been set up properly…. I still think there was too much going on with fully automatic arm movement and the linear tracking aspect creating all sorts of noise. Did the direct drive system contribute to that? Not sure. Phase Linear was a marketing name as the “Sony Esprit” line for Pioneer and I know they made some decent stuff back in the day. Maybe @chakster has a few of their examples….

"Although I am a Rega guy and switched from DD 20 years ago (linear tracking Phase Linear 8000 and never looked back after a $500 Music Hall MMF5 blew it away". I think you’re too smart to believe that you proved something about DD turntables with that experience.

Phase Linear was once the name of a US company that won the Watts wars, back in the 70s when each month brought the introduction of an ever more powerful SS amplifier with ever lower THD measurements, made possible by the use of more and more negative feedback. The Phase Linear 700 produced 700W with something like .00001 THD and sounded like crap.
Contrary to what Chakster seems to be saying, I do think that each of the various drive systems does have a distinctive sonic signature until you get to the very best of each type, where the differences tend to melt away in favor of transparency and accuracy. But just when and where that happens would be another cause for argument. It also doesn’t make sense to me that Chakster would take the position that turntables are not much different from one another, given his devotion to those he has chosen to own, over most others of any type.

brother in law has Ultradeck w Isolation platform and Ortofon Bronze - sounds lovely.

Glad this worked out well for the OP

Cutting Lathe is also a turntable, but I doubt anyone can say “this Neumann cutting lathe is warmer and more dynamic than Skully cutting lathe”. The function of a turntable drive is to rotate on constant speed, period. The warmth or brightness coming from device that read the groove (aka phono cartridge), we are well aware of different sounding cartridges (completely different). 

@lewm - I am just saying that the turntable is less important than the arm or the cartridge/phono stage. Of course the noise created by the turntable differentiates it from others - it’s not just about getting the correct speed. And, of course better specs don’t necessarily mean better sound. Not everything audible is measurable and not everything measurable is audible. It would be easier for audiophiles to make equipment decisions if these statements weren’t true, but it’s not that simple. You need to listen.

@chakster -please confirm your agreement that turntables matter, even if they rotate at the correct speed, they can add varying amounts of noise.

I swear I can’t hear any noise from my turntables, they are dead quite and in this discussion I don’t want to talk about bad turntables, I know they are exist somewhere, but not in my world (I don’t use them). And I agree that a good turntable can be a belt drive, direct or idler, for all those good examples a cartridge is responsible for sound (and everything else between the cart and speakers, and room acoustics too).

I think we normally swap cartridges (matched to specific tonearms), phono stages or suts, tube users have fun with tube rolling, some people are crazy about cables.

I think we rarely swap turntables or speakers just for fun. I mean we may have a few systems, but it’s not like 5 different pair of speakers (I have 3 pairs) or 5 different turntables (I have 6), but I use just 2 turntables and a pair of speakers most of the time. When I want different flavor I can choose one of 4 different tonearms with matched cartridges connected to different phono stages, sound signature is different, but turntable is the same (Luxman PD-444 is my reference DD in the Lab, dead quiet low torque DD in its heavymetal plinth).

sokogear, I'd like to make a slight correction to your statement. Everything that is measurable is not audible but everything that is audible is measurable. Sound quality is subjective to some degree and subjectivity is not measurable. 
As an example, I can set up a measurement microphone, play some music and display a sonic spectrum on the computer. I can change the frequency response an see the change occurring on the computer in real time. I can go the other way and play a slow sine sweep and look at the frequency response curve. If I see something I do not like I can make an adjustment and run another sweep to see if I fixed the problem. Since I can run individual sweeps for each channel I can adjust them independently until the two channels are within 1 dB of each other from 100 Hz to 10 kHz.  

@mijostyn - you can make your changes, but they may not be audible to some people. We all have different hearing and listening capabilities and skills, not to mention preferences and biases. 
How do you measure audible changes that dont change frequency response?

Sokogear, there are several parameters you can look at besides frequency response, the various types of distortion, group delays, phase angles, etc. As I alluded to in my last post there are subtle changes you can measure but not hear. If you hear it it can easily be measured as modern test equipment is far more sensitive than any human ears including millercarbon's. I would also insist that if I hear a difference all of you can hear it also. The reason I know that timing is very important with subwoofers is because I can delay any of my speakers in increments of 0.1 msec. Sound travels at about 1 foot/msec (13.38 inches at sea level to be exact) Delaying a speaker 1 msec is like moving it a foot away from you. At about 2 msec you can hear bass volume and transient response start to decline worsening as you increase the delay until eventually you hear a distinct echo at about 30 msec. Delays of 15 msec create a "chorus" effect. When all the speakers are time aligned you get the best transient response and imaging. In the bass this means impact which is vital for producing the "you are there" sensation. 

@chakster , in the lab? Cooking up toxic potions again? "Scully" by the way. 

@lewm , you are so mean! The Fuzz Linear 700 sounded a whole lot better than the Crown 300. I owned one. It had it's benefits over the tube amps of the day. The power was intoxicating and the bass was much better. Yes, it was a bit brittle sounding up top but back then most of us did not know any better. Like most young males it was all about volume. People say they were unreliable but I beat the crap out of it for 8 years through high school, collage and into grad school and it did just fine. My next amps were the high voltage tube amps in the back of Acoustat X's, quite a leap.

The best turntables sound like nothing, nothing at a constant speed. The best turntables are the ones that isolate the cartridge from everything happening around it. The cartridge is a very sensitive vibration detection device. It could care less whether the vibration comes from the record or anything else. If the turntable has a sound it is coming from the "anything else," be it a resonance in the tonearm board or bass coming up through the plinth. 

Just for fun I propose we all do an experiment. I can't do it myself as I do not currently have a turntable. Everyone can tell me what happens!
Place your stylus down on a record but do not turn the turntable on. Have your significant other hold their phone 12 inches away from the cartridge playing any song on the playlist. Turn your volume up all the way and put your ear right up to a speaker. Hear anything?

I guess if you can hear it, there is some way to measure it. That would mean that if you can’t measure it you can’t hear it. Thats where the major arguments were brewing with the SR camp and the measuring camp a few weeks ago that got pretty intense after some videos were posted. Didnt mean to fan those flames…..

i guess I’m in the measuring camp now. Sorry MC & Ted.

I do not agree that everything that is audible is measurable. First, we often/usually do not know the connection between measurements and what we hear, although that would probably not trouble Mijo. Second, what about persons that insist that one fuse can sound different from another or that fuses have directionality? I don’t doubt that they hear what they say they hear, but I do doubt that anyone could measure the cause of the phenomenon, except where some boutique fuses do not meet underwriters laboratory specifications for current rating and resistance across the fuse. And if you could measure it with an instrument, you still would not know that the difference in measurement has anything to do with the auditory differences claimed by those who claimed them without doing further tedious experiments . By posting this, I do not wish to start a battle with anyone who is a fuse fan boy. To each his own. I am just using the fuse thing as an example where you may hear something, but it is not necessarily measurable. There are really dozens of such examples I could have chosen.

Isn’t a fuse just functioning as an on/off “switch” if you will? 
I doubt I could hear a difference, but according to the authorized repair guy for my Plinius amp, if your system is resolving enough, you can hear a small effect, that may or may not be worth the cost. He said the people who have “upgraded” them that he spoke with were happy with the results.

"By posting this [in reference to my using the fuse debate as an example of something some people hear but which is not so far measurable, except where the specs of the fuse really do differ], I do not wish to start a battle with anyone who is a fuse fan boy. To each his own."

@lewm - 2 pieces of stereo equipment may have the same (commonly quoted) specs but sound different when measured by @mijostyn and his sophisticated diagnostic tools and methods. Also, when specs ate measured, it may be under different confitions or assumptions.

I am not a EE so I don’t know much about fuses. Perhaps there are other characteristics or specs beyond those of UL? Just a thought.  

Both are great but there sound is for different systems for sure if you have a detailed system go for the sota if you have a naturally balanced system go for the technics but they are both very good tables.

Soko, What I said, twice, is I don't wish to debate fuses or for that matter anything else.  I used the eternal fuse debate as an example of an instance where two audio devices may sound different and yet not be distinguishable by measurement.  I disagree with Mijostyn's general statement that if you can hear a difference, you can measure the thing that makes a difference. The fuse is actually a bad choice on my part, because two different fuses labeled "1A" for example, and being identical in terms of size and envelope (glass vs ceramic, for example), may in fact measure differently in terms of resistance across the fuse, and there is a small chance that that difference in resistance accounts for the sonic difference that some hear.

Not quite sokogear. You can hear something and not know what to measure. Such was the issue with TIM (transient intermodulation distortion) back in the 70's. If you hear something real there is a measurement to explain it. That does not necessarily mean that measurement is known or has been developed.  

@lewm, if I were to hear something I did not like and did not have the tools to figure out the problem and fix it, I would be greatly troubled. So much so that I have spent considerable money on gear to test and work on my system. You have to admit that is money well spent in comparison to that spent on fuses and cable elevators.
I should have been more specific about what I said because you are right to disagree with my statement which in thinking about it is only true for people who can separate themselves from the psychological aspects of hearing. A lot of what people hear is purely psychological and as such is unmeasurable. The people you hear talking about remarkable improvements (always remarkable) in sonic quality with fuses and cable elevators are being mislead subversively by their own selves. I love the term "lay instinct" Just because something seems to make sense (to the uneducated mind) does not make it true. Appealing to lay instinct is called marketing. 
I am not as kind as you. There is no circumstance in which a power fuse is going to make a sonic difference other than blowing. Between the power cord and the audio circuitry you have (in decent equipment) a very well regulated power supply. A slight change in impedance in a power fuse will do absolutely nothing to the power supplies output and you know this for a fact. Sorry to have heated up this subject but I was just using it as an example.

"Technics for sure"
But of course!
If your going to the night club....🥱

Sota hands down, and I don’t own either.

A nice origin live turntable and arm would kill the both of them!😉 best deal in town, and better than tables and arms 5x as much. Aurora or Calypso with the silver arm.
For now, my Music Hall mmf-7.3 sounds lovely, but.....🤔

So @mijostyn - you are of the opinion that a moving wire (interconnect or speaker cable) while the music is playing doesn't change the sound? According two AJ van den Hul it does as per his excellent white paper under FAQ on his web site. I am not going to say that I can hear the difference if my speaker cable is on the floor or off of it because of a box it passes over or a small ledge to keep it off the ground, but if you believe AJ (as I do) then a cable which lies on the floor is subject to the vibration from the speakers and thereby moving. Whether you can hear that bit of distortion or not is debatable (just like the fuse debate), otherwise why would people buy and keep (they offer money back guarantees) cable elevators? It is the easiest blind test to create.

I do agree that most of the improvements deemed remarkable should be termed audible or barely audible. If some of the believers were accurate, then all of these tweaks removed would remarkably make their systems sound worse, which I bet they would never say, otherwise removing all of them would make their system sound terrible.

"Technics for sure"
But of course!
If your going to the night club....🥱

Sota hands down, and I don’t own either.

And it’s blanket statements like this which often discourage me from posting on this site.

Facts: the Technics was designed for home use. DJ’s found favor with it because it fits their needs well too. The criteria that make up a good table for DJ applications are in fact highly similar to those that are required for a good high-end home-use turntable: solid chassis, immunity to external vibration, robust and high quality bearings that can stand repeated use (for both the platter and arm). The 1200 family has these qualities in spades.

Now if you do not personally like the sound, that is fine. You have that right.  Please however do not lord it on others.

Mijostyn, Do you have formal training in electronics or are you self-taught so as to have attained a high level of knowledge about electronics?  (Those are two equally valid ways of getting there.)  Because if you don't, and at least one of our private interactions suggests that you don't, then all the equipment in the world is not going to compensate for "ignorance", and I use that term only to denote a situation where we don't know what we don't know; I do not mean or intend to insult your intelligence.  I certainly count myself as lacking in knowledge at a highly sophisticated level even to begin to understand all the phenomena that define audio Nirvana as I experience it.  Yet I too own oscilloscopes, frequency generators, and miscellaneous meters to make me feel I have a tenuous grip on audio reality. 

Have you considered Pro-ject?

Sota 

Not diving into any of the side controversies here, but I’ll offer that the SOTA Sapphire I bought in 1986 is still going strong.  Here’s my tribute to the ‘table’s durability from 4 or so years ago. Cheers. 

OP, glad you found the Mo Fi Ultradeck which is in my very short list. Did you get the Master Track or the Ultra Track with it?

@stereo5,

Could you please let us know where you got this information about the 85% magnesium tonearm on the SL 1210 GR?  Thanks
 

Is SOTA even relevant today?  The Comet is a toy, the Technics is a good turntable and the complete package. The arm in the SL1210 is no slouch. It is said to be 85% of the Magnesium arm in the SL1200g. Doubtful you would hear a difference unless you do many comparisons.

@tyray - I think stereo5 is saying the aluminum arm on the 1210gr is said (not sure by whom) to be 85% as good as the magnesium arm on the 1200g. I’m not endorsing or disagreeing with the idea  - I have and like the magnesium arm, but haven’t any experience with a 1210gr. 

Ok, thanks Coy for the prompt answer. I'd still like to know where he got his info.

Dr. Duffensmirtz is correct! 

@tyray,

I got my info from the dealer regarding the arm.