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Too bad they can't figure out how to isolate a turntable correctly. |
It really is down to the arm. Everybody knows I am a big Sota fan. But, I'm afraid the first "real" Sota is the Sapphire. At the Comet's price point they can not put in a suspension. However, Sota has a lifetime trade in policy. So if your decide you want to move up you send in the Comet and they will credit you (not sure how much) towards your new table.
Having said all that the RB300 is a better arm than what is on the Technics which is going to be more significant sonically. I have not listened to this Technics but I have never liked the sound of direct drive turntables. My main experience with them was decades ago, I must have sold and set up 100 of them at Luskin's Hi Fi. So, take it what it is worth. The Technics is cool looking and made well. The Goldring 1042 is IMHO the best buy in a MM cartridge. The AT VM series is also a great buy. The Goldring is perfect with the RB300. It might be a little too compliant for the Technics. The AT cartridges are fine in either. There is also Grado, Soundsmith and Clearaudio to consider. The best moving magnet cartridge I have ever heard is the Clearaudio Charisma but is not the best value. The Goldring is close and 1/3rd the price. The AT VN93ML at $170 is another amazing value. The one I set up had a stylus rake angle that was way off -87 degrees I think it was. it was actually tilted the wrong way
requiring me to raise the back of the arm quite a bit. Azimuth was fine. |
@lewm , Yes, I have that skill set. I do not have to listen to that arm. I can see it. I do not understand how a smart guy like you can't tell by looking at a very simple device why it might be inferior. The RB 300 has it's deficiencies but is handily a better design than the Technics arm. But the single most significant problem with that turntable is that it is in no way shape or form isolated the way a proper turntable should be. A cartridge in that arm, on that turntable is still reading a lot of environmental garbage that it should not be. The Comet being unsuspended is probably no better in that regard but at least it has an arm without unnecessary contacts and with reasonably low moment of inertia. |
@lewm, If you have a direct drive table could you do us a favor? Take the platter off, hover the cartridge over the motor about two inches from the spindle at platter height, turn the motor on and turn up the volume. You hear anything? |
@sokogear, Get a stethoscope and listen to the wall with your system running. The Townsend platform is certainly a step in the right direction but it is not as effective as a good suspension or a MinusK platform.
If you had a Sota you could put it anywhere in the room, on a collapsible card table and it would have superior isolation to what you are doing.
I think however under the circumstances you are doing the best you can with the resources you have. So, I know you have an appreciation of what isolation means to a turntable. In the future when you feel like upgrading you have a direction to head in. I think you should consider one of the tables I mentioned above. In the mean while the P8 is a great value and it has a good arm. |
Sokogear, walls vibrate just as much as floors. Wall shelves are at best flimsy. Yes, you can buy isolation. A MinusK stand costs $5000.00
A Sota Sapphire costs $3500 and along with the Nova and Cosmos make up some of the best isolated tables you can buy competing with tables costing many times as much. There are many well isolated tables to choose from coming from Thorens, SME, Avid, Oracle, Basis, TechDas, Kuzma, Dohmann and Sota. They achieve a level of clarity and stability impossible in an unsuspended table. None of them are direct drive.
Not sure why this is. I can easily envision a suspended direct drive table with a taller platter/longer shaft distancing the motor from the cartridge.
Some day someone will make it. |
Rubbish, it is a boat anchor |
@lewm , it is a MoFi Ultradeck. Get with it old man. |
sokogear, I'd like to make a slight correction to your statement. Everything that is measurable is not audible but everything that is audible is measurable. Sound quality is subjective to some degree and subjectivity is not measurable.
As an example, I can set up a measurement microphone, play some music and display a sonic spectrum on the computer. I can change the frequency response an see the change occurring on the computer in real time. I can go the other way and play a slow sine sweep and look at the frequency response curve. If I see something I do not like I can make an adjustment and run another sweep to see if I fixed the problem. Since I can run individual sweeps for each channel I can adjust them independently until the two channels are within 1 dB of each other from 100 Hz to 10 kHz. |
Sokogear, there are several parameters you can look at besides frequency response, the various types of distortion, group delays, phase angles, etc. As I alluded to in my last post there are subtle changes you can measure but not hear. If you hear it it can easily be measured as modern test equipment is far more sensitive than any human ears including millercarbon's. I would also insist that if I hear a difference all of you can hear it also. The reason I know that timing is very important with subwoofers is because I can delay any of my speakers in increments of 0.1 msec. Sound travels at about 1 foot/msec (13.38 inches at sea level to be exact) Delaying a speaker 1 msec is like moving it a foot away from you. At about 2 msec you can hear bass volume and transient response start to decline worsening as you increase the delay until eventually you hear a distinct echo at about 30 msec. Delays of 15 msec create a "chorus" effect. When all the speakers are time aligned you get the best transient response and imaging. In the bass this means impact which is vital for producing the "you are there" sensation.
@chakster , in the lab? Cooking up toxic potions again? "Scully" by the way.
@lewm , you are so mean! The Fuzz Linear 700 sounded a whole lot better than the Crown 300. I owned one. It had it's benefits over the tube amps of the day. The power was intoxicating and the bass was much better. Yes, it was a bit brittle sounding up top but back then most of us did not know any better. Like most young males it was all about volume. People say they were unreliable but I beat the crap out of it for 8 years through high school, collage and into grad school and it did just fine. My next amps were the high voltage tube amps in the back of Acoustat X's, quite a leap.
The best turntables sound like nothing, nothing at a constant speed. The best turntables are the ones that isolate the cartridge from everything happening around it. The cartridge is a very sensitive vibration detection device. It could care less whether the vibration comes from the record or anything else. If the turntable has a sound it is coming from the "anything else," be it a resonance in the tonearm board or bass coming up through the plinth.
Just for fun I propose we all do an experiment. I can't do it myself as I do not currently have a turntable. Everyone can tell me what happens!
Place your stylus down on a record but do not turn the turntable on. Have your significant other hold their phone 12 inches away from the cartridge playing any song on the playlist. Turn your volume up all the way and put your ear right up to a speaker. Hear anything? |
Not quite sokogear. You can hear something and not know what to measure. Such was the issue with TIM (transient intermodulation distortion) back in the 70's. If you hear something real there is a measurement to explain it. That does not necessarily mean that measurement is known or has been developed.
@lewm, if I were to hear something I did not like and did not have the tools to figure out the problem and fix it, I would be greatly troubled. So much so that I have spent considerable money on gear to test and work on my system. You have to admit that is money well spent in comparison to that spent on fuses and cable elevators.
I should have been more specific about what I said because you are right to disagree with my statement which in thinking about it is only true for people who can separate themselves from the psychological aspects of hearing. A lot of what people hear is purely psychological and as such is unmeasurable. The people you hear talking about remarkable improvements (always remarkable) in sonic quality with fuses and cable elevators are being mislead subversively by their own selves. I love the term "lay instinct" Just because something seems to make sense (to the uneducated mind) does not make it true. Appealing to lay instinct is called marketing.
I am not as kind as you. There is no circumstance in which a power fuse is going to make a sonic difference other than blowing. Between the power cord and the audio circuitry you have (in decent equipment) a very well regulated power supply. A slight change in impedance in a power fuse will do absolutely nothing to the power supplies output and you know this for a fact. Sorry to have heated up this subject but I was just using it as an example. |
