Sopra 2 Bass

izjjzi     Love the look of your setup and system components. I think you solidified my reasoning to get the Rel 212sx. I think it would do well in my room.

Best of luck in your journey!

 

mike

@mikepaul I returned the Carbon Special. I found that I could not "set it and forget it". I was constantly up to adjust it for certain tracks. It would draw attention to itself.  I'm sure it's my room and the need for more than one sub. For this reason I tried the 212, because it is claimed to provide 80%(?) of what an array can provide. I was able to set and forget the 212 within five minutes after connection and I haven't touched it since. The difference is night and day. I tell everyone that this was my best purchase to date. My other observation is that the Carbon Special was working really hard, even at low volumes. I had to be really careful with it. The 212 in contrast hasn't broken a sweat. It is effortless, musical and so darn fast. Again, my best purchase to date. What do I mean by this? I've learned what most here have learned, which is we may like or love our amps, speakers, etc, but 95%(?) of the time we know in the back of our head that we are not completely happy a given piece. We buy, we sell. The wheel turns. There is a zero percent chance I'm ever parting with the 212. 

Glad things are turning out well. I am considering a Rel 212sx or maybe (2) S812's. So, are you using both subs now? the Carbon and the 212sx? Have you tried the 212sx by itself ?  I was hoping a singular 212sx would do the trick?

thanks

 

mike

Update (not that anyone still reads this old thread) but I stepped-up to the REL 212/SX. What a different animal in contrast to the Carbon Special. The CS filled a hole I needed filled and I've been thrilled with it since dial-in, but one thing became clear - I needed a second. I feel badly that my room remains untreated but even so, a single sub was difficult to tune and even when I reached that point, certain tracks would force me out of my seat or I would simply lower system volume. It did everything as advertised. My solution was not another CS, but to try to the 212/SX. Jaw, meet floor. A sub was a night and day improvement, but the 212 is an entirely other level in my room. It disappeared instantly and I can aggressively play with the gain / crossover without overly drastic change. It is simply amazing. The term "musical" resonates as I listen and write this. It is tight, fast, and any doubts I've had with my speaker selection are gone. Just keeps getting better and better. 

Day 3 with the REL Carbon Special and I am finally smiling! It started with some frustration because I couldn't quickly make it disappear. I was up from my seat nearly every track to adjust the crossover and/or gain. I am still confounded by the phase toggle as it does not seem to make an appreciable difference. Anyway, I took a step back, left the settings a few clicks less than the recommended starting settings in the video guide and let it break-in for 48 straight hours. This included an initial positioning in the rear corner with a slight pivot from 45 to about 60 degrees toward the listening position. Then I watched this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtT_6_KaSDQ

...and the sound engineer I'm working with at GIK (John) also said to get the REL out of the corner. Now I wonder why REL suggests corner placement... because moving it to the rear (near centerline) with the driver facing forward, everything clicked. The sub is gone, the music is full and emotional. I cannot believe the difference this made. The tone controls are now off on the McIntosh. I just finished a four hour listening session, which was unplanned. I went down to turn off the system and was drawn into the music. On deck is the Merging+NADAC, arriving on Sunday. I'm expecting big things. The only thing I'm left wondering is what a second sub could possibly give me when things sound this good with one?

I suppose this ends what was my first post in the hifi realm. Thanks again to everyone for their encouragement and support.

@james633 I would have doubled-up if I didn't have so many more gaps to fill. I can always double-up later. I still need a streaming solution, maybe different speaker cabling, etc. I have an electrician coming out on Monday to run a few dedicated lines. I will then be painting the walls and having the room sound treated. Today I moved the last rubber stall mats out of the room and the SQ improved dramatically. Getting there!

You will like the sub it will make a big difference. One sub can sound fine but it is a little harder to work with to get smooth bass. Two subs is much easier to get flat bass in room. But with a single sub you should be able to find a spot that gives you smooth bass for a single seat at least. 

Pulled the trigger on the REL Carbon Special. This is after a few more days of back and forth with REL, more videos and reading than I care to admit. Almost went with the 212/sx, but it might be too much for my room. I know it's not two subs or a linear array, but it will be a massive upgrade and could be what I need to be happy and lastly focus on a streaming solution. I can always add a second down the road in this marathon of marathons. Maybe It wouldn't be as fun if it were a sprint where money was no object? This is what I tell myself anyway, haha. I will have 30 days with it and a no questions asked return policy. Can't go wrong. Full report once it arrives. 

Wooden floors will give the impression of more bass than a concrete floor.

ozzy

@james633 I reached out to REL regarding their pairing tool's recommendation of the S/812 and to get their thoughts on going with a pair of lower model subs. They have articles using the Sopra 3 as a real world example and they have photos of Sopras as well in some of their configuration examples. I am a bit skeptical regarding having more than one sub off of my integrated. Is there a difference to justify the cost? Thank you for the link. Explains why I've had to use the tone controls and bump the 25 and 50!

@ozzy The floor is berber rug over concrete. I have had the Sopras everywhere in the room, which is 11x20.5. I do not have the feet down or own platforms, but I do have the Townshend platforms on my list of options. I am not using these for home theater. My components are on wood, dampened with rubber gaskets. I will be updating my photos soon so people can see the rack.

I'm convinced the sub route is going to get me to bliss. I just want to get it right.

The lack of bass does not surprise me. The speaker’s bass drops like a rock after 50hz and steps down pretty hard even after 100hz (link below). Room gain will be very room dependent. Some rooms might even make it worse not better. 

I think izjjzi should measure the room at the listening chair. Does not have to be anything fancy. Even a DB phone app and a streamed test tone album would give you a good idea of the room. 

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1445:nrc-meas...

The OP comments about the Sopra 2’s bass amazes me. I own now for a few years the Sopra 2’s and I am very satisfied with them. Yes, I have 4 subwoofers (JL F-113) that come in around 40hz. but even without the subs the Sopra’s have very tuneful bass.

I would say the biggest impact on speakers bass performance is the speaker to amp relationship and of course speaker placement.

BTW, what type of floor is under your Sopra’s? Concrete?
And what type of flooring is under your home theater equipment? Wood?

And for what it is worth, I have found that the Townshend #3 platforms increased the bass tonality on the Sopra 2's


ozzy

I would buy two subs even if you have to step down to a lower model due to cost. For music you will really not need that large or powerful of a sub. I would also use the highpass function of your McIntosh and 60hz is a good place to start… and probably end basses on the Sopra’s measurements. 

Update: My finger is on the purchase button for a REL Carbon Special. It will be $4,248.94 shipped. Everything is sounding great, but I know I will never get what a sub or array of subs will deliver. Even after hours of enjoyable listening, I head upstairs to the TV room and my 20yr old BA powered sub paired with Energy towers (cheap home theater setup) makes me smile, simply due to the emotional lows and punch I just cannot get from the Sopra 2s alone. For example, I listen to many tracks where low piano chords break the silence, my McIntosh / Sopra 2 combo is unemotional, uneventful. The same break in silence on my cheap home theater setup makes me hate the lack of lows on my system costing exponentially more. However, I know a sub will bridge this gap. I used REL's speaker pairing utility, which chose the S/812, but I've decided to take it a notch higher to the Carbon Special. This is not a conclusion, but another ask before I purchase to see if anyone can convince me to take a different route. I am hoping, asking for responses based on experience with REL, and better yet, with speakers in the Sopra 2 tier, etc. Side note: I have decided to avoid JL for the endless posts regarding reliability, so no matter what anyone says, I will not entertain JL options at this time. This includes seeing several JL subs for sale in the pre-owned section of the stores I've been in. This is NOT a JL bash, just stating facts from two months of reading, shopping and trying to avoid responses to go JL over REL. Thank you! 

I am using Gryphon Diablo 300 to drive the Sopra 2, tons of bass and dynamic.  But a little reminder is that the Sopra needs a lot of time to run in.  Low frequency will increase over time.  You need to be patience.  I used double bass music at moderate volume to run in the speakers.....they really require a longgggg period of time to sound great.....

As for the streamer I am currently using Lumin X1, if you dont want to go to the extreme I highly recommend Lumin D2 great sound and value.

If you can walk around your room and hear the bass you are looking for, then you have room/placement issues. Better equipment, racks and cables aren't going to solve your issue. It sounds like you are sitting in a null in your room that has a bass suckout. Try moving the listening position and/or the speakers until you remove the cancellation.

It can be done. The biggest question is are you able or willing to try alternate positions for you and the speakers.

Oz

If you’re not utilizing the speaker spikes with the provided pucks…it makes a huge difference with the bass as the Sopras are a down ported speaker. Upon initial setup mine were a bit dull in the low end put after putting the spikes down it was substantially improved. Best of luck.

@mikeyg I am entering a phase of home auditions, which will absolutely take your advice into consideration. I almost pulled the trigger on Silversmith Audio's Fidelums off of eBay, but have learned the hard way that home auditions are paramount at this level. Thank you for the suggestion, I hope my contact has Supers. I am texting him now...

Izjjzi, once you burn in your system for a good 100 hours I would recommend you home audition some serious speaker cable.  I have found that to be a really simple way of tweaking the overall sound.  You will actually be surprised at the difference it can make.  For a long time I used Kimber Kable 8TC, a really solid cable for the price but very neutral.  About a year and a half ago I brought home demos of six different cables and just had at it.  (Plus the beauty of demos is that they should already be broken in.)  I remember the list including Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval 8, Ansuz Acoustics "X", Audience Studio One, Kimber Kable Monocle XL, and Nordost Heimdall 2, and all of it was good, real good.  But the one that stood out for me was Transparent Super, and the reason, in addition to how refined and articulate it was, was because of the way it accentuates the bass.  Bar none that will be the first thing you notice if you listen to it.  And that's not just with the Super cable, instead that is true right on up the entire Transparent line.  So I just wanted to throw that out there for you.  Once you get your component lineup ironed out, there are certainly other directions you can go in.  Good luck to you on your quest for enhanced bass!

Expensive components never cured a bad setup.

Put the first three hours on my new McIntosh MA12000 and I'm happy to report better bass over the MA9000, but while noticeable better it is still not "there" (unless I'm standing about three feet from the front line, on center). My audio rack is in transit and I'm about to start my in-home sampling of streaming options. Gathering steam and taking steps!

I brought the Kanta 3's home as I really liked the mids and top end, but when I got them home the bass was. disappointing. a large 10 db peak at 100 hz and dropping like a rock from there with no port support so +10 at 100 hz, flat at 80 hz and gone after that. It might just be Focal speakers?

Minor updates. My McIntosh MA12000 arrived today. I bring it home tomorrow. The power company (Eversource) performed a quality test yesterday and things look good from the street to the meter. I need to hire an electrician to check things on the inside. It will soon be full steam ahead with everything discussed here. Best to you all.

I always plug Amps directly to the wall, I would not plug my Amps into a conditioner and Mac may say the same. I ran 2 15 Amp wires from their own protected breakers. Each Amp has its own source directly to my breaker box. Conditioner plugged into a std line, everything except Amps plugged into it. If your lights dim at volume, it isn’t nessasarily a problem just points to the demand being put on the circuit, it would drive me nuts. I’ve seen plenty of systems do this for years, some like it😎

All - am I breaking any rules by asking side questions unrelated to my bass issue? I've asked about room treatments, streamers, etc, things possibly related to my bass quest, but my next is regarding my power.

Out of my depth here but while playing music the one light in the room dims in sync with deep notes at moderate volume. My MA-9000 needs power. My near future MA-12000 will probably need a little more.

My uneducated response is to consider a 20 amp breaker and or something like a Furman with power reserve for big draws.

I checked the wiring and it's 12/2 NM-B 600 volt. Based on some quick reading it will support a 20amp breaker? What do you think? There may be six outlets in the room, so this one circuit will be shared by my components and the floor lamp. I may not be able or want to use any other outlets. I will replace all of the outlets with 20A versions as well. Will this be healthier for my McIntosh? Will it solve my problem of not being able run anything else like the lamp at the same time? 

Do I only need a good power conditioner with a reserve?

I suspect a number of you are probably going to tell me to hire an electrician. I get it, but I am a big DIY guy and have wired homes before. Maybe this will not get any replies for fear of killing me lol. I am not worried about replacing the breaker and outlets. Easy peasy. I hope to learn if doing so is the right path, or if other options will work. Thank you!

90% of my issues with low frequencies were resolved by adding 4 subwoofers in a distributed bass array, or "swarm". Low frequencies which were weak and uneven were instantly balanced, strong and most of all, real.

Do some research here and on the Audiokinesis website.   

Good luck.  

@blancpain1 Appreciate the story and you are spot-on. I do love the current sound and am seeking perfection. Is it good enough as-is? Probably. I just know I can do a little more and be really happy. A few more components (steamer and maybe a power conditioner) and I will be happy. Once I have a complete system steaming the source I want, I will then resume treating the room and seeing where I can get in terms of bass. This post has lead me down a methodical path, a fun trek that I must not rush. 

@allenf1963 So this isn't how it always goes? Unfortunate, but I can roll with the punches if folks take a swing. Funny you mentioned Bourbon. We were sipping a special bottle of Angel's Envy last night. :)  Mission accomplished!

@arnoldo Not sure how your reply repeated six times? Sounded like a good move with the Loki to buy you time, and great point about being patient. I think others mentioned having a bit of patience as well. I rushed to judge the 4 and 2ohm taps vs the 8ohm. I rushed to purchase a streamer. Part of the rush is wanting to report back here asap. The other rush is to have all the components I need. The Node was not the solution for me. It was an uneducated, rushed purchase. It will not do USB out until possibly later this year via a firmware update. I will be selling the Node and getting something that supports streaming DSD to my McIntosh DA2, but so far that quest is showing me such a streamer is not cheap...

Is there anyone here that steams DSD to a McIntosh DAC? What is your streamer? I would love an Aurender or Innuous, but the price... I started with a high-end base, so maybe I have no choice but to go high-end? My budget is now thin since deciding to step-up to the MA-12000.

I love the look and sound of the Sopra 2's, I listen primarily Classic Rock on the loud side via C2600 MC275 X2 Turntable 80% stream 20% via Tidal HiRes 20' X 20' room. The one drawback to the Sopra's is missing hard hitting bass, Mid-Range Best in class, Tweeter Excellent, Bass just so so for typically produced Rock. I'd suggest your system sounds great as is and your ears will adjust in a few months to their sound, yes the Sopra's will also open up a bit as you play them and the bass will become easier to drive and feel. By design with hard hitting Rock, you won't get the punch you feel with let's say a Klipsch Forte III or Cornwall (or many other hard hitting speakers) I mention these because I have them and love them for hard hitting room shaking rock, but they lack some of the detail Sopra's have but then again, this detail matters little with most of the rock I listen too. And when I say lack detail, trust me, its just to me most others are blown away with the detail. My system when I have the Forte's hooked up, is the reference system for my friends and they have some impressive systems, but its always my house when they get a new Lp or have found a new song streaming. For some reason, most of us music and system lovers are always searching for something better when in reality, most on this forum have super systems that sound great.......but we are always searching for better, that's why there are soooo many gimmicks that make people lots of money selling to us. Your comment when your friends/family were over and blown away says it all. Enjoy and Rock on! 

@izjjzi,

This was a very refreshing and rewarding post and thread to read this month.  I've enjoyed following "the enjoyment and discovery" you've had as a newcomer to the Audiophile World -- and I've especially enjoyed NOT seeing posts from the usual asswipes on this Forum that belittle newcomers relentlessly if they dare stray from their "always correct answers". 

Over the years, you will come to appreciate the impact your Sister-in-law made on your journey when she helped to get your wife "on board" during the listening session you described.  Buy her a bottle of good Bourbon...STAT!  She just made your future audio expansions and monetary outlays much easier during household budget meetings with your better half -- much easier.

Here's to your continued enjoyment! 

I'm pretty new to this too, one thing I learned is to be patient and give things time to settle (ears and gear).  I got the Focal 1038's and initially thought they were weak on bass so got a Schitt Loki to boost it while contemplating subwoofers.  After months of slowly turning down the bass I just got rid of the Loki.  My Focal's are flat (not sure Sopras) and it takes time to adjust and appreciate, for newbies like me especially since most of the Bose and Sony gear I had boosts the bass significantly (Also admit to turning up bass on my vintage Pioneer gear).  But learned to appreciate how articulate and clean the Focal's bass is.  And when I play a bass heavy song like from the last Billie Eilish album I realize my speakers are capable of serious bass it just doesn't exaggerate it.

@audiorusty Totally agree. In fact, I like what I hear for bass with increased volume. It's not perfect, but there is no need for the tone control to be on when I want to roll the dial.

@jrbirdman333 Funny story - I was being setup to hear the 60i contours before I came across the Sopra opportunity. The N2s remain the best I've heard in any showroom or home to-date. I do not want to hear a potentially better system anytime soon, especially because I'm happier right now than I've ever been.

My second eyebrow has now joined my first, far north of my eyeballs hearing you have four subs. How did you know you needed more than two?

A lot of guys are going the four sub route including myself. I started with one, then two and now four. Not to get more bass, but to get better bass. Multiple subs are more of an electronic version of low frequency room treatment. They greatly help in smoothing out the low end frequency response of a room. There are a great many threads on audiogon that discuss the merits of multiple subs, aka DBA, distributed bass array. Also see AudioKinesis "Swarm"

How were you able to dial-in all four?

Personally, I found it much easier to dial in four than one, because four reduced or eliminated many of the problems usually associated with subs, but I did recently fine tune my set-up with the help of REW.

Next time, if there's a next time, I push past 60% I will have the tone control disabled and will be watching the power guard lights with my finger on the mute or volume control.

Not knowing what track you were playing when the incident happened I strongly suspect it was the 25 Hz control that caused the problem. You might try setting the 25 control at neutral or lower, increasing the 50 to 3/4 and reducing the 100 to 1/4 and see if that sounds OK to you, though you still might not get much more volume. In my opinion a 7" driver is just too small to reproduce loud bass much below 60 Hz.

I really enjoyed this string. I too am a newbie and love this hi-fi journey.iizjjzi, I hope you are having fun. I'm considering the focal Sopra N2 as well, but after this string I think I'll hang on to my Dyn 60i contours. They aren't quite your N2s but they produce prodigious, room-rattling, neighbor infuriating bass. And that has value.

@wbhendrix - Sweet setup. I raised an eyebrow during this post when I learned that most go with two subs instead of one as I thought one was enough. I went from budget 2.1 music / home theater into the deep end of true hifi in one giant leap. My second eyebrow has now joined my first, far north of my eyeballs hearing you have four subs. How did you know you needed more than two? How were you able to dial-in all four? 

@wbhendrix -  Also noticed in many hifi room pics and videos there are corner treatments (bass traps?). Is this something you always had? Something identified as a need and solution? I am wondering if they are a "must" regardless of room and something I should buy?

Update for everyone: After chewing on upgrading my MA-9000's DAC to the newer one vs. stepping-up to the new MA-12000, I am stepping-up. Deal is done. It's now a waiting game as McIntosh is backed-up. The good news is it was ordered the day I purchased the 9000, so I have a few week lead-time. I am not expecting a massive difference, but have read some consistent things about better lows, a bit warmer sound, etc. I like everything I'm reading and know I will not be disappointed. I love the tube pre, and the look. As I've noted before, I'm in deep!

In the meantime, the dealer asked that I continue to use the MA-9000 to break it in for them. They do not want it back until the 12000 arrives. I'm slowly converting the room to a listening room. My wife is calling it a lounge, but is the term "lounge" fair if it can only sit four?

I also have the same speakers as you, and the lack of bass really bothered me as well. But then I added four Rel subs and that made all the difference. Now they sound absolutely stunning. 
Check out my setup here
https://www.instagram.com/vinylxlifex

@audiorusty Definitely no distortion. The "pop" almost seemed like part of the track as the music was almost behind it and uninterrupted, if that makes sense? The sound is still pristine. No damage as far as I can tell. Next time, if there's a next time, I push past 60% I will have the tone control disabled and will be watching the power guard lights with my finger on the mute or volume control. 

Sorry, I should have elaborated. The MA12000 is more attractive, not just in looks, but having the newer DAC and tube pre-amp... I bet it just sounds better for the few extra $k. 

Regarding DACs, that's what I'm afraid of... the tech race. Been there done that with camera gear. I now have a dusty Canon 1Ds Mark III and tons of glass that I probably can no longer sell because I missed the value window. I blink and there are now several versions of the same glass and my cell phone takes nearly identical raw images... I would laugh if not for the tears.

This hifi chase is already one filled with second guesses, returns, and the feeling I may never "get there". I not only need a seat belt, but a four point harness! (A sick bag would be nice too) Happy you're all on the same ride and helping me in so many ways. :)

Leaves me wondering what a clip sounds like vs something else...

Im my experience when an amp clips you would hear that same pop of the driver hitting its excursion limits followed immediately by heavy distortion and lack of volume due to a blown driver. The amp it self would suffer no damage.

Since I wasn't at your party and was unable to experience the volume level you were reproducing, it is impossible for me to know for sure, and I certainly do not want to contradict your dealer, but I've been in your shoes more times than I care to count, and I still think that there was a low end dynamic spike in that track and with you having the 25 Hz control and possibly the 50 Hz control adjusted were you do, that was just a little more low end power than that 7" driver wanted to see. Had it been the amp reaching its limit I think that driver would have been toasted, but again that is just my opinion.

I'm also wondering it I should have been a bit more patient and waited for the MA-12000.

Not sure why you think the MA12000 would work better. If you had run out of power with the MA9000 the fifty extra watts probably would not have bought you anything. You would more than likely need an amp that could deliver 600 watts or more if you are clipping a 300 watt amp.

In short, I'm in it deep.

I hear what you are saying (typing?) It's very easy to get sucked in. The best thing to do is just take a breath and relax. It sounds like you are enjoying what you have so no real need to rush. Figure out what you want to improve (sounds like you have) and proceed slowly. Do your homework. In my opinion, though it's not being asked for (too bad I'm giving it anyway) is that the improvement in DAC's in the next few years will be greater than the improvement is subs so unless you are extremely unhappy with what you have now, you might be better off upgrading that later.

many of the chi-fi dacs that are advertised as being mqa capable (topping, gustard, smsl...) only decode it properly via their usb inputs -- coax and optical, no can do

Interesting about 24/192 mqa. I was told I needed usb to get it, but maybe thats because I use a nucleus.

@audiotroy Definitely not my normal listening volume, but experiencing that power, stage and clarity was something else, including fun! It's something I would like to do again, but now fear. A McIntosh dealer emailed me based on my same description I gave you. He wrote,

It seems there was a digital “glitch” in the recording, and it made the amplifier reach Power Guard and do its job. You said that they were only slightly pulsing, so for that particular track, you were at full power plus of the MA-9000. The Power Guard was doing its job (as it should), and protecting your speakers from clipping distortion. I would not be concerned.

Leaves me wondering what a clip sounds like vs something else...

I would love subs, but I'm now stuck looking for the best streaming option, dumping Tidal for something DSD to work with my Mc's internal DAC, possibly upgrading the DAC to the latest version. I need to nail down a source, the best possible source within my current sore budget. I'm also wondering it I should have been a bit more patient and waited for the MA-12000. In short, I'm in it deep.

Halfway through the track there was a quick pop from the right speaker.

Once again I agree with James633, this most likely was an over excursion of the woofer due to boosting the low end and the over all volume you were using while playing the track.  Been there and done that,  but I don’t recommend doing it on a regular basis. As long as you are not hearing any distortion form the speaker you did not do any real damage, but you did reach the limits of your system with those particular settings.

If what you were playing was at your desired level of volume and low end thump when you heard the pop, you should probably seriously consider adding subs in the future. I wouldn’t add just any subs either, you will want subs that have plenty of power and least a 12” driver if not larger.

@james633 Terrific info. Thank you. Spent another hour this morning toggling between the 8 and 4 and still prefer the 8 at low volumes and the 4 for everything north. My minor tone tweaks remain regardless of the tap I'm using. I watched another crazy demo on YouTube of someone with the MA12000 and the Utopias, who had every tone dial torqued one way or another. It made me cringe, yet I can sympathize.