Sopra 2 Bass

Correction @birdfan - I think you meant to write NOT on subwoofer mode, which now makes more sense to me, so my #1 above will not be something I test. The node defaults to subwoofer mode off and I will leave it off.

@curiousjim The seller demoed them to me. I did not ask or notice anything that went into the output. I was there to pick them up. The only thing I noted was the nice area rug, high ceiling and I would guess placement was about 1/5 (room x,y) from the corners. 

@sandthemall as you can see from above, your 1/5 comment is what I observed with the previous owner. And...

@Everyone - I failed to mention that the floors are reflective without any rug at this time. I have a cheap, Persian style rug I can use and will include this as a test. I have already been shopping for something I can place as needed and roll-up remove as needed. Suggestions welcome (shag vs other vs brand) would like to do this on the cheap.

Per my last post, looks like I should ditch the node 2i and if I upgrade my McIntosh DAC to version 2, what would folks recommend for a streamer to get full resolution? Should I pass on the Mc DAC upgrade ($1k) and go another route? Streaming is currently my only option, but I was hoping not to have to chase DACs for the rest of my life at a premium.

McIntosh owners, have you seen this? Better yet, have you tried it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FApWEUJBnDI

No further updates on my room, other than I'm happy using the 4ohm taps and tone controls (for now). Busy weekend ahead for moving everything out and possibly painting the walls. Fun times!

I am blown away by the number of responses. THANK YOU, everyone for your thoughtful input. You have given me a number of things to ponder and try. More detail and updates:

• Only the speaker and power cables are new. The MA9000 was a store demo and was told might be "broken in". The Sopras are gently used and I'm not sure if they have enough hours or were even played at volume to be broken-in. 
  
• I read bass from towers can cancel each other out and bass traps can solve for such. It's why I mentioned possible trying traps. Based on your feedback, I now may only need them if I go the subs route.
• The only wall backing the Sopras is not flat. There is a 6.5" offset, which isn't on center. It is just over 6' from the left side. So if the Sopras are parallel, the left one will have an extra 6.5" behind it. The ocd in me is really bothered by this. I would love to know why it exists / was built this way!
• I know there is nothing wrong with tone controls but I "feel" like spending this kind of money should grant you results that do not need tone assistance. Feels wrong writing this, but I want to be able to demo this system to my cousin and brother without having them comment on the fact I need to use them, because they will!
  
• My VDI rack arrived yesterday and I can't way to set it up. Going to do so first before any suggested testing. :)
• What is my "virtual system"? Happy to do so if I can get some guidance?
• I did not hear the Sopras with the Mc, a risk, I know, but I did read reviews with the same MA9000 and Sorpras as well as other media that reported Mc and N2s were a good match. So far I am blown-away save for that elusive low end that led to this post. 
• This will not be my last home. My next will either be built to suit or will have an "ideal" room for my music. 

My to-do list, in order, AND I am not going to stack advice. I plan on trying each from my current baseline settings and with the tone controls off on the Mc.

1. @birdfan Set my NODE to subwoofer mode, which I did but cannot yet test the result. This setting reveals a crossover slider with no value but appears to be 1/4 up from 40Hz to a max of 200Hz
2. I have seen my Mc display 96kHz(?... it was 96 something...)  from my NODE playing Tidal masters, but no better. Should I return it? What values should I see displayed?
3. @erik_squires  \Play the same track from the 8, 4 and 2omh taps. Can't wait to try this.
4. @ozzy and @mtrot  Move the Sopras 1' from the back wall. This is appealing as this room needs to be functional for things other than listening so it would be ideal if I don't have to place them well into the space.
5. @ozzy and @mtrot Move the Sopras 1/3 into the room ~7'. Part of me hopes this does not work. My wife will strangle me. Yet, if it works it will be terrific data.
   
6. @onhwy61 and @speakermaster Will look into an SPL meter / software, etc. My brother works for a commercial AV company and may have access to a good one. 
7. @james633 very helpful if I go the sub route.

Don't know why I could not @ some of you, but again, thank you everyone for your responses! I have a fun afternoon ahead of me. I will report back on each experiment in a detailed summary. 

4 hours later...

• Tapping the 4, followed by 2 omh destroyed fidelity. It was progressively like cutting the volume, stage, everything in half with each step. 8 omh it is, but did I do something wrong?
• Confirmed, the best I get is 96 kHz from my Node via optical to the Mc DAC.
• Speaker placement. Did not make a difference, save for the suggested 1’ from the back wall, and this was the only placement with some improvement. Not sure I like it and it still did not get me "there". Of note is that I did hear the desired result if I stood on center, about 3’ from the front line. In fact, this was true with every placement. The end result is that no position resulted in a material difference. I could not get what I wanted unless I was positioned close to the front of them.
• This room is not a converted garage. It’s a first floor, cement, berber rug, and 3/4" rubber matted floor. It doubles as a workout room. Ashamed to say this, but it’s what I have to work with at the moment. Other rooms are smaller, but I may end up moving the system.
• @audiorusty I have to bump the 25 3/4th turn from neutral and the 50, 1/4 turn. I leave all other dials as-is.
• My VTI rack does not fit my MA9000. Not happy. It’s on me. I needed 10" or better and the rack has a 9" clearance. Down on myself for making this mistake!

Next steps:

1. Purchase an area rug ASAP!
2. Wall and ceiling treatments - just have no clue where to diffuse vs adsorb.
3. In short, remove the echo, reflections and establish a new baseline.
4. Research subs. There is a terrific, active post on this site regarding musical subs. It leaves me nervous on what to pursue.
5. I have a old, Boston Acoustics sub (PV800) in my living room. I’m going to bring it down and see what happens.

I will wait for the room to be treated and revisit. Targeting the end of this week. There is nothing else I can do at this time.

Side note: The 4 hours I just spent was still amazing in terms of the best sound I’ve owned to-date. I love this system! I just know it can be a bit fuller and have reach the heights I know are possible.

Addendum: My wife agreed to move the gym, rubber flooring, etc. to a another room and turn this room into a lounge! Progress!

Hey @ozzy62 I messed up and the rack does not fit the McIntosh. Appears I looked at other VTI offerings and noted the good spacing, but did not double check my final selection. Maybe it's meant to be. Suppose I better get used to more unboxing and re-boxing during this venture / hobby / addiction. lol  Seems it's most of what I've been doing!

I swear the next thing I'm going to learn is that my room needs an ideal oxygen to nitrogen ratio that's not the same as outdoors... I am still floored by switching the power cable and what transpired. My jaw is sore from smacking the floor so many times this month! 

@james633 and @michaeldunleavy Apologies and please, please bear with me. I revisited testing the 4 and 2ohm taps and need to roll back my findings. First, I wrote 6 and 2 in my last post when I meant 4 and 2, ugh. Second, while the "volume" does seem to drop a tad, it may not be loudness that is dropping, but what I'm hearing may be a smoothing of the track. I am now finding I like 4ohm better than 8. I spent an hour listening to the first minute of Fade to Black on each tap...over and over. 8ohm seems a bit louder, but also a bit harsher... and I do think the bass response is better dipping below 8. Again, I am stunned and have learned I need to run these tests a bit longer than a quick listen / judgment. 4ohm now seems more true, if this statement makes sense, and easier on my ears. Wanted this test out to you asap and I will continue to play with it / give it more time. I love progress. 

Good Morning! My sister in law loves music and she was over for dinner last night. My wife spilled the beans regarding my endeavor and the night turned into a 3 hour listening session with my sister in law as the DJ. I've quickly learned that a system like this can invoke jaw drops, big smiles, shock and awe in people who have lived their lives thinking all systems were the same. This is where the approval to instead turn this room into a listening room / lounge came from. To see these two women seem to discover music for the first time and jump track to track to hear all their favorites was something to behold. Never thought my purchases would have such a profound impact on others, especially my wife. 

**One note. I pushed the system a bit and dialed in 70%. Halfway through the track there was a quick pop from the right speaker. Only happened once and it took me what seemed an eternity to grab the remote and drop the volume. Both ladies asked about the pop. I was stunned and never thought it would happen with this level of equipment. The questions to all of you: Can this happen with any system regardless of price? Did I do something wrong? The music was amazing, effortless and powerful. It was easy to listen to - zero fatigue. Everything sounds perfect despite the pop, so I'm praying no damage was done? The Mc's power guard lights were gently flickering during the track so I know the draw was significant. Full disclosure - it's only a 15 amp circuit for this room, which is not shared by any other room. Thinking I may want to consider a dedicated 20 amp tap? Existing wires may support a 20 amp breaker. Going to check today. If yes, should I replace the 15 with the 20? I have a 20 on hand.

I think someone asked about my music tastes? I like everything that moves me and I can find several artists that accomplish this in almost every flavor, save for speed \ death metal (if I have those terms correct). This is what I liked most about the Sopras - they handled everything well for my ear - something the competition in this range did not, and I can name a few dozen.

@tomic601 I think you are asking if I have the positive and negative reversed? I do not. I am super careful and the connections are correct. I am far from perfect and was so nervous to check lol. @mtbiker29 I am only able to upload one photo, which I just did of the back of the Mc / Kimber connects. I bought the wire new last Wednesday from Safe and Sound. It is Kimber 12VS Base series. I have been eyeing Silversmith Audio Fideliums. The Kimbers are 9' because the 9' was sold out and I wanted some placement flexibility, however I am happy with their current placement and could cut back to 6'.

As for my virtual room - @mtbiker29 I see you have two photos, a description and equipment list. Is the same available to all of us? I was only able to upload a single photo.

@james633 It's not that it was more open - I left the volume at 37 and sound level seemed to be cut in half going from 8 to 6 and again from 6 to 2. It was like switching from my Sopras to a clock radio - exaggerated, but that significant. Maybe I should have juiced the 6 and 2 to see what would happen?

Next steps are to relocate my CrossFit gear and rubber stall mats to another room and retry the tests on the fully carpeted surface that lurks beneath. I will also be ordering some diffusers and absorber panels as well. Wish I could post photos, but what I have on two wall so far: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08CH1VPJ5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08FWZZMSZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 One is on the rear wall behind the left speaker, the other is 1/3 into the room on the right wall, ahead of the right Sopra.

@audiorusty Totally agree. In fact, I like what I hear for bass with increased volume. It's not perfect, but there is no need for the tone control to be on when I want to roll the dial.

Response from Bluesound:

MQA has two different “levels” (they call it unfolds) HALF UNFOLD (Software only - 24/96), and FULL UNFOLD (Software and Hardware - 24/192)

MQA requires communication (ie two way) with the DAC for FULL UNFOLD

If it (MQA) doesn’t know what the DAC is you can only get HALF UNFOLD (software only)

Via digital (Optical or COAX) there is no two way communication so you can only get HALF UNFOLD as the BluOS software will unfold the first half, but doesn’t know what DAC is connected

You can turn off the BluOS (software) unfold via the app for zero unfolding, and pass the raw data to the DAC -  This the best option if you have an MQA certified DAC, this will let the DAC do all the work, otherwise you’ll only get the first half

If you do not have an MQA DAC, you should use the Analogue outputs…. at least for MQA, but since the  NODE outputs both digital and analogue at the same time you can use a non-MQA DAC for everything except MQA content (if you want and the DAC is good enough to keep it in the system)

SO…

Analogue out = FULL MQA

Digital Out

Non MQA DAC = HALF MQA via digital

MQA DAC = FULL MQA (if you turn of the BluOS first unfold)

@steve59 I had a friend ask me about trying them on one of the long walls as well, almost the same time you posted. Doing so was not an option when I started this this post but is now that the room will only serve the purpose of listening. The problem is that the width is only 11'. Need seating for 4 people on the other side, but maybe it will sound good off center? Definitely going to try it once the room is cleared and I'm hearing this system with a fully carpeted (berber) floor that's been hidden for a long time.

@james633 Another update - After a few more hours swapping taps (almost wrote "playing taps", but some might have taken that literally). I am now liking the 8ohm better at low volumes (~25% or lower) and 4ohm above that. The 8 sounds more dynamic at lower volumes, but too dynamic / harsh at higher volumes ONLY when compared to 4ohm. The 4 is so smooth at higher volumes. I could live with the 4 full time and may try the 2ohm when I want to push things further.

This chase is fun. Thanks again to everyone! I am humbled by the number of you who have taken time to post. 

@james633 Terrific info. Thank you. Spent another hour this morning toggling between the 8 and 4 and still prefer the 8 at low volumes and the 4 for everything north. My minor tone tweaks remain regardless of the tap I'm using. I watched another crazy demo on YouTube of someone with the MA12000 and the Utopias, who had every tone dial torqued one way or another. It made me cringe, yet I can sympathize. 

@audiotroy Definitely not my normal listening volume, but experiencing that power, stage and clarity was something else, including fun! It's something I would like to do again, but now fear. A McIntosh dealer emailed me based on my same description I gave you. He wrote,

It seems there was a digital “glitch” in the recording, and it made the amplifier reach Power Guard and do its job. You said that they were only slightly pulsing, so for that particular track, you were at full power plus of the MA-9000. The Power Guard was doing its job (as it should), and protecting your speakers from clipping distortion. I would not be concerned.

Leaves me wondering what a clip sounds like vs something else...

I would love subs, but I'm now stuck looking for the best streaming option, dumping Tidal for something DSD to work with my Mc's internal DAC, possibly upgrading the DAC to the latest version. I need to nail down a source, the best possible source within my current sore budget. I'm also wondering it I should have been a bit more patient and waited for the MA-12000. In short, I'm in it deep.

@audiorusty Definitely no distortion. The "pop" almost seemed like part of the track as the music was almost behind it and uninterrupted, if that makes sense? The sound is still pristine. No damage as far as I can tell. Next time, if there's a next time, I push past 60% I will have the tone control disabled and will be watching the power guard lights with my finger on the mute or volume control. 

Sorry, I should have elaborated. The MA12000 is more attractive, not just in looks, but having the newer DAC and tube pre-amp... I bet it just sounds better for the few extra $k. 

Regarding DACs, that's what I'm afraid of... the tech race. Been there done that with camera gear. I now have a dusty Canon 1Ds Mark III and tons of glass that I probably can no longer sell because I missed the value window. I blink and there are now several versions of the same glass and my cell phone takes nearly identical raw images... I would laugh if not for the tears.

This hifi chase is already one filled with second guesses, returns, and the feeling I may never "get there". I not only need a seat belt, but a four point harness! (A sick bag would be nice too) Happy you're all on the same ride and helping me in so many ways. :)

@wbhendrix - Sweet setup. I raised an eyebrow during this post when I learned that most go with two subs instead of one as I thought one was enough. I went from budget 2.1 music / home theater into the deep end of true hifi in one giant leap. My second eyebrow has now joined my first, far north of my eyeballs hearing you have four subs. How did you know you needed more than two? How were you able to dial-in all four? 

@wbhendrix -  Also noticed in many hifi room pics and videos there are corner treatments (bass traps?). Is this something you always had? Something identified as a need and solution? I am wondering if they are a "must" regardless of room and something I should buy?

Update for everyone: After chewing on upgrading my MA-9000's DAC to the newer one vs. stepping-up to the new MA-12000, I am stepping-up. Deal is done. It's now a waiting game as McIntosh is backed-up. The good news is it was ordered the day I purchased the 9000, so I have a few week lead-time. I am not expecting a massive difference, but have read some consistent things about better lows, a bit warmer sound, etc. I like everything I'm reading and know I will not be disappointed. I love the tube pre, and the look. As I've noted before, I'm in deep!

In the meantime, the dealer asked that I continue to use the MA-9000 to break it in for them. They do not want it back until the 12000 arrives. I'm slowly converting the room to a listening room. My wife is calling it a lounge, but is the term "lounge" fair if it can only sit four?

@jrbirdman333 Funny story - I was being setup to hear the 60i contours before I came across the Sopra opportunity. The N2s remain the best I've heard in any showroom or home to-date. I do not want to hear a potentially better system anytime soon, especially because I'm happier right now than I've ever been.

@blancpain1 Appreciate the story and you are spot-on. I do love the current sound and am seeking perfection. Is it good enough as-is? Probably. I just know I can do a little more and be really happy. A few more components (steamer and maybe a power conditioner) and I will be happy. Once I have a complete system steaming the source I want, I will then resume treating the room and seeing where I can get in terms of bass. This post has lead me down a methodical path, a fun trek that I must not rush. 

@allenf1963 So this isn't how it always goes? Unfortunate, but I can roll with the punches if folks take a swing. Funny you mentioned Bourbon. We were sipping a special bottle of Angel's Envy last night. :)  Mission accomplished!

@arnoldo Not sure how your reply repeated six times? Sounded like a good move with the Loki to buy you time, and great point about being patient. I think others mentioned having a bit of patience as well. I rushed to judge the 4 and 2ohm taps vs the 8ohm. I rushed to purchase a streamer. Part of the rush is wanting to report back here asap. The other rush is to have all the components I need. The Node was not the solution for me. It was an uneducated, rushed purchase. It will not do USB out until possibly later this year via a firmware update. I will be selling the Node and getting something that supports streaming DSD to my McIntosh DA2, but so far that quest is showing me such a streamer is not cheap...

Is there anyone here that steams DSD to a McIntosh DAC? What is your streamer? I would love an Aurender or Innuous, but the price... I started with a high-end base, so maybe I have no choice but to go high-end? My budget is now thin since deciding to step-up to the MA-12000.

All - am I breaking any rules by asking side questions unrelated to my bass issue? I've asked about room treatments, streamers, etc, things possibly related to my bass quest, but my next is regarding my power.

Out of my depth here but while playing music the one light in the room dims in sync with deep notes at moderate volume. My MA-9000 needs power. My near future MA-12000 will probably need a little more.

My uneducated response is to consider a 20 amp breaker and or something like a Furman with power reserve for big draws.

I checked the wiring and it's 12/2 NM-B 600 volt. Based on some quick reading it will support a 20amp breaker? What do you think? There may be six outlets in the room, so this one circuit will be shared by my components and the floor lamp. I may not be able or want to use any other outlets. I will replace all of the outlets with 20A versions as well. Will this be healthier for my McIntosh? Will it solve my problem of not being able run anything else like the lamp at the same time? 

Do I only need a good power conditioner with a reserve?

I suspect a number of you are probably going to tell me to hire an electrician. I get it, but I am a big DIY guy and have wired homes before. Maybe this will not get any replies for fear of killing me lol. I am not worried about replacing the breaker and outlets. Easy peasy. I hope to learn if doing so is the right path, or if other options will work. Thank you!

Minor updates. My McIntosh MA12000 arrived today. I bring it home tomorrow. The power company (Eversource) performed a quality test yesterday and things look good from the street to the meter. I need to hire an electrician to check things on the inside. It will soon be full steam ahead with everything discussed here. Best to you all.

Put the first three hours on my new McIntosh MA12000 and I'm happy to report better bass over the MA9000, but while noticeable better it is still not "there" (unless I'm standing about three feet from the front line, on center). My audio rack is in transit and I'm about to start my in-home sampling of streaming options. Gathering steam and taking steps!

@mikeyg I am entering a phase of home auditions, which will absolutely take your advice into consideration. I almost pulled the trigger on Silversmith Audio's Fidelums off of eBay, but have learned the hard way that home auditions are paramount at this level. Thank you for the suggestion, I hope my contact has Supers. I am texting him now...

Update: My finger is on the purchase button for a REL Carbon Special. It will be $4,248.94 shipped. Everything is sounding great, but I know I will never get what a sub or array of subs will deliver. Even after hours of enjoyable listening, I head upstairs to the TV room and my 20yr old BA powered sub paired with Energy towers (cheap home theater setup) makes me smile, simply due to the emotional lows and punch I just cannot get from the Sopra 2s alone. For example, I listen to many tracks where low piano chords break the silence, my McIntosh / Sopra 2 combo is unemotional, uneventful. The same break in silence on my cheap home theater setup makes me hate the lack of lows on my system costing exponentially more. However, I know a sub will bridge this gap. I used REL's speaker pairing utility, which chose the S/812, but I've decided to take it a notch higher to the Carbon Special. This is not a conclusion, but another ask before I purchase to see if anyone can convince me to take a different route. I am hoping, asking for responses based on experience with REL, and better yet, with speakers in the Sopra 2 tier, etc. Side note: I have decided to avoid JL for the endless posts regarding reliability, so no matter what anyone says, I will not entertain JL options at this time. This includes seeing several JL subs for sale in the pre-owned section of the stores I've been in. This is NOT a JL bash, just stating facts from two months of reading, shopping and trying to avoid responses to go JL over REL. Thank you! 

@james633 I reached out to REL regarding their pairing tool's recommendation of the S/812 and to get their thoughts on going with a pair of lower model subs. They have articles using the Sopra 3 as a real world example and they have photos of Sopras as well in some of their configuration examples. I am a bit skeptical regarding having more than one sub off of my integrated. Is there a difference to justify the cost? Thank you for the link. Explains why I've had to use the tone controls and bump the 25 and 50!

@ozzy The floor is berber rug over concrete. I have had the Sopras everywhere in the room, which is 11x20.5. I do not have the feet down or own platforms, but I do have the Townshend platforms on my list of options. I am not using these for home theater. My components are on wood, dampened with rubber gaskets. I will be updating my photos soon so people can see the rack.

I'm convinced the sub route is going to get me to bliss. I just want to get it right.

Pulled the trigger on the REL Carbon Special. This is after a few more days of back and forth with REL, more videos and reading than I care to admit. Almost went with the 212/sx, but it might be too much for my room. I know it's not two subs or a linear array, but it will be a massive upgrade and could be what I need to be happy and lastly focus on a streaming solution. I can always add a second down the road in this marathon of marathons. Maybe It wouldn't be as fun if it were a sprint where money was no object? This is what I tell myself anyway, haha. I will have 30 days with it and a no questions asked return policy. Can't go wrong. Full report once it arrives. 

@james633 I would have doubled-up if I didn't have so many more gaps to fill. I can always double-up later. I still need a streaming solution, maybe different speaker cabling, etc. I have an electrician coming out on Monday to run a few dedicated lines. I will then be painting the walls and having the room sound treated. Today I moved the last rubber stall mats out of the room and the SQ improved dramatically. Getting there!

Day 3 with the REL Carbon Special and I am finally smiling! It started with some frustration because I couldn't quickly make it disappear. I was up from my seat nearly every track to adjust the crossover and/or gain. I am still confounded by the phase toggle as it does not seem to make an appreciable difference. Anyway, I took a step back, left the settings a few clicks less than the recommended starting settings in the video guide and let it break-in for 48 straight hours. This included an initial positioning in the rear corner with a slight pivot from 45 to about 60 degrees toward the listening position. Then I watched this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtT_6_KaSDQ

...and the sound engineer I'm working with at GIK (John) also said to get the REL out of the corner. Now I wonder why REL suggests corner placement... because moving it to the rear (near centerline) with the driver facing forward, everything clicked. The sub is gone, the music is full and emotional. I cannot believe the difference this made. The tone controls are now off on the McIntosh. I just finished a four hour listening session, which was unplanned. I went down to turn off the system and was drawn into the music. On deck is the Merging+NADAC, arriving on Sunday. I'm expecting big things. The only thing I'm left wondering is what a second sub could possibly give me when things sound this good with one?

I suppose this ends what was my first post in the hifi realm. Thanks again to everyone for their encouragement and support.

Update (not that anyone still reads this old thread) but I stepped-up to the REL 212/SX. What a different animal in contrast to the Carbon Special. The CS filled a hole I needed filled and I've been thrilled with it since dial-in, but one thing became clear - I needed a second. I feel badly that my room remains untreated but even so, a single sub was difficult to tune and even when I reached that point, certain tracks would force me out of my seat or I would simply lower system volume. It did everything as advertised. My solution was not another CS, but to try to the 212/SX. Jaw, meet floor. A sub was a night and day improvement, but the 212 is an entirely other level in my room. It disappeared instantly and I can aggressively play with the gain / crossover without overly drastic change. It is simply amazing. The term "musical" resonates as I listen and write this. It is tight, fast, and any doubts I've had with my speaker selection are gone. Just keeps getting better and better. 

@mikepaul I returned the Carbon Special. I found that I could not "set it and forget it". I was constantly up to adjust it for certain tracks. It would draw attention to itself.  I'm sure it's my room and the need for more than one sub. For this reason I tried the 212, because it is claimed to provide 80%(?) of what an array can provide. I was able to set and forget the 212 within five minutes after connection and I haven't touched it since. The difference is night and day. I tell everyone that this was my best purchase to date. My other observation is that the Carbon Special was working really hard, even at low volumes. I had to be really careful with it. The 212 in contrast hasn't broken a sweat. It is effortless, musical and so darn fast. Again, my best purchase to date. What do I mean by this? I've learned what most here have learned, which is we may like or love our amps, speakers, etc, but 95%(?) of the time we know in the back of our head that we are not completely happy a given piece. We buy, we sell. The wheel turns. There is a zero percent chance I'm ever parting with the 212.