No, all systems are not equally true to the source material. I never said anything about universal reality which is kind of a weird thing to bring up and I'm not sure what you mean by it. The preference for vinyl is a choice like digital again not getting the point. If your implying vinyl is better then that's your subjective opinion and a lot of people prefer vinyl but it's not an objective reality.
So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...
Here is a very relevant discussion among physicists about the directionality...the way signal and electrons should flow... based on conductor orientation. Some esoteric, high-end manufacturers say they listen to each conductor to see which way the signal should flow for the best audio quality.
Read this discussion. Will it make you rethink what you’re being told and sold?
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-a-copper-conductor-directional.975195/
Read this discussion. Will it make you rethink what you’re being told and sold?
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-a-copper-conductor-directional.975195/
523 responses Add your response
Well I knew this would be the response. The directionality of wire is not really what is important in this discussion. I really dont care, but the idea that someone who diminishes the personal experience as paramount in this hobby and is talking about a universal reality is very concerning. Because you are so quick to dismiss indicates to me that you are in no position to mentor anyone. The fact that you close your mind to other possibilities automatically disqualifies you as an objective source of information. You would portray your opinions as facts and quote some propeller head and to add credence. Again lets compare experience and systems. Or do you believe that all systems are equally resolving? The fact that you are digital only is very telling as is my preference for vinyl. |
I can just see those in your group mentoring a new enthusiast who just bought a more expensive cable. This new person thinks he has discovered something great which made his system sound better and is excited.Facing reality is sometimes difficult the more mature a person the easier it is for him or her to put it behind them and learn from the experience. |
yesiamjohn, Why do you think it is a good thing that cable enthusiasts spend their money on cables and not the things that really matter? How would this make things better for you? How exactly is what you buy going to be cheaper and more abundant as a result of our buying decisions? Did your group ever consider that you might be wrong and keeping others from enjoying the benefits of things that have been identified incorrectly as snake oil? An incredibly stupid thing to say. others, I can just see those in your group mentoring a new enthusiast who just bought a more expensive cable. This new person thinks he has discovered something great which made his system sound better and is excited. Along come the snake oiler crowd and to follow is a verbal beratement which instills in this new person: buyers remorse, a unnecessary questioning of ability and the experience, frustration, anger and resentment. And many of you guys are angry feeling that somehow you have avoided the cable grifters and the numerous other pitfalls of high-end audio. The objectivists are nothing more than a tribe, but the difference is you guys are a tribe of people whose focus is to tell people how and why they are wrong. Further you are telling others to doubt their senses when audio is a sensory experience. Guys I am perfectly happy to waste my money on the things that I think make a difference. I dont care that I may be enriching some snake oil salesman if in the process it brings me more enjoyment. I cant believe you dont see the difference in maturity of our 2 camps. |
Ya see how bizarre things are here djones51 and edgewound I guess that's part of the attraction. The things people claim they can hear in these cable threads is utterly bizarre. When I step back and think about it though I guess it isn't much different than the claims made in DAC and amplifier threads. |
Don't quit your day job to all of a sudden think you are Columbo. You are not as good at detective work as you think you are. |
Would you be willing to participate in a double blind test to see if you can really tell if the signal flow in a wire is directional? Do you have the confidence in your hearing to discern the difference? |
Ya see how bizarre things are here djones51 and edgewound. I am now the thing under the bed now. You two made the mistake thinking this was an audio site? Nope? Instagram for audio children who never grew up past high school. Can't have a mature discussion about cable's here or audio. They are not interested. It's a cliche and you are not invited. How bizarre, how bizarre. Thank you for the comedy. I was laughing out loud. |
Ya see how bizarre things are here djones51 and edgewound. I am now the thing under the bed now. You two made the mistake thinking this was an audio site? Nope? Instagram for audio children who never grew up past high school. Can't have a mature discussion about cable's here or audio. They are not interested. It's a cliche and you are not invited. How bizarre, how bizarre. |
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There is a very good reason why so many snake oil screeches in Audiogon recently who just joined here. With a very targeted approach: According the site that should not be named (you can easily guess which one), Audiogon Forums is the last audio forum standing, the last one the militia has not been overrun. Other that those run by dealers with strong moderation. All members there were recently strongly “suggested” to create accounts and start posting here. Obviously none of them has any intentions of buying or selling anything. They don’t buy or sell audio gear typically. Not in this hobby for that. |
Ya see edgewound and djones51. Their arguments totally support your position and they don't even realize it. You can't argue with that. They can't admit they are wrong if they lack the ability to understand it. Now we have someone who says they can understand why cables could be directional. You know they won't be able to clearly say exactly why. And they will have the "tell" of someone who does not understand. Let's see what they can come up with. Don't fight it. Just enjoy the ride. |
It’s easy for me to understand that cables CAN sound different one direction vs the other. It’s also appear that bothers other people. My question is WHY? Why would it bother an individual if someone found a cable performed different one direction than the other. A lot of the repairs I use to do on equipment were because "it didn’t matter", "I’ve never heard that before", "I never had to do that before"? "no I didn’t read the instruction manual". OR WORSE I did read the manual and that wasn’t in there. The it "It didn’t say not to", crowd. The reality, is simple, to each his/her own. No need to argue when the whole point of the thread is to invoke one way of thinking. ANY middle of the road, normal person wouldn’t argue for someone else only themselves. There is no Sir Galahad here. Starting a thread just to argue "YOU’RE WRONG" "I’m Right"! What’s the point? I’m right, You’re wrong?! There is ZERO information in the thread proving there is "NO directionality". As I said and as a mechanic there are reasons to listen before soldering. Because we can’t measure the EXACT differences we hear, IT (the change) doesn’t exist? James B of Ampzilla built some of the finest amps around using a "LOOK at the wire" before solder approach. The difference in a piece of equipment voiced that way makes all the difference in the world in the way it sounds. TO MOST that have ever heard an amp built that way vs not, it is not a subtle difference. The type of construct, the size, and LENGTH of wire runs makes a difference, but attention to detail like HOW the wire was pulled off working spools of wire in a build room... Mechanically joining all the solder point BEFORE soldering... A lot of the GREAT builders don’t tell the public, How they get "THEIR" house sound. BUT they sure charge for it.. As for the "prove it to me" crowd, when YOU pay for it it’s all yours, when I pay for it it’s all mine.. Do what you want with your stuff. I’ll do what I want with mine.. I just started conditioning 13 cables on Cable Cooker 2.5, after I checked the draw of the cable. 4 were backward according to how they were put through the dyes.. I reversed the arrows and will cooked all of them for 14 days. NONE were pre conditioned or soldered. 13 cables 625.00 usd. I trust NO ONES WORK... Only my Cardiologist. How you prepare a cable for maintenance, makes a BIG difference too.. Plug an DROP, may work, but just like direction, paying attention to detail nets some great results for many an audiophiler. Regards |
As if differences in the acuity of senses went against some evolutionary absolute.I think it is not so much a greater "acuity" but sometimes a greater experience and knowledge based perceptive history.... What some called a "bias" in a sarcastic way without knowing that certain " bias" are learned the hard way... Ask any Maestro.... For sure i hated marketing publicity about cables and false claims about "quantum effect" for example...Not because they are impossible but because nothing of this marketing ploys are proved at all.... But when it is said, this is not a reason to twist science the other way and claim that all there is to audible experience could be measured.... Sheeps take a side, i am not one..... |
I love the term "science sound". So funny how words like science, engineers, measurements, test equipment, etc simply appeal to certain people. Comforting like an old soft blanket. Perhaps reassuring in that it encourages them often to spend less. I have been listening seriously for over 3 decades and I just dont see the point in questioning what I hear. I still am working on differentiating different from better which is an exercise which is fun but taxing. The thing that I find so interesting is the notion that certain people hear better than others seems anathema to some. Some on this site seem completely unable to accept the fact that their hearing may be inferior. Certainly one of the first things I would consider if someone claimed to hear something that I didnt. As if differences in the acuity of senses went against some evolutionary absolute. |
Perhaps audiophile have their cables delusion....And certainly it is if we look at price.... But i have observed that some so called scientists here have their own delusions about what is real and what is not.... Reducing human perception to engineering software is not science, it could be technology, but science is not an ontological faith in "matter" nor a quest for technological power.... |
Bravo. Well stated. |
My point here was to give an example of the way we CREATE perception not only passively receive information...In this context cables direction could be a placebo effect.... Why not? My other point in this thread is that our senses access information about reality in a way an unidimensional tool could not... This is the reason why we cannot treated all people testimonies and rejecting them with the back of the hand.... My main point is CORRELATION between human perception and measures are science.... BUT REDUCING human perception to only what is measured in all cases and in all times is ideology not science... A methodological attitude when experimenting using some tools with human perception cannot be a definition of human perception in itself.... |
mahgister-
Here is an article illustrating why music is not reducible to acoustic for those who dont know.... This one article explains why some people like the sound of speakers they like the looks of and critique the sound of better sounding speakers they don't like the looks of so much. Human beings are not microphones and cameras attached to micro-processors. We are way better than that. We are human beings. The skilled professional Marimba player knows his gesture prolongs the note because his audience sees it and perceives that it prolongs the note- whether it does so when measured by microphone or not! |
it seems that instead of derailing a thread between 2 insulting sides i give some food to the thought... Perhaps the listening of these audible differences is a placebo caused by the complex way the perceptive paths is constituted... Perhaps human hearing access to some information a frequencies meter could not... I dont know and nobody here know in a scientifically proven way.... The subject is interesting anyway if we spare insults and think about in all possible ways.... For the cables sellers : i dont buy costly cables because in audio, vibrations controls, decreasing the electrical noise floor and especially acoustic controls , matter way more than buying costly cables... |
Hey maybe you can start a business curing people with cancer using their mind. Can make a lot of money. Win a Nobel Prize too. Sarcasm is a sign of intelligence not a proof that there is really one intelligence working... Sorry... I can use sarcasm too... My suggested videos or articles are all facts.... Perception is a complex multidimensional phenomenon not a unidimensional tool... Quit your religion and think.... |
By the way this take only few minutes and an open mind to go way further.... You know that plant know how to "eat" light by using quantum effects at classical scale? perhaps then man know something about cables when he carefully listen to them? Nobody knows.... And some here can be right and it is perhaps a placebo effect, but CLAIMING that it is proven that it is only that is not established yet.... |
I do recall some circumstances where people claim to have cured their cancer with their mind, but there are on a few reported cases.The miraculous healing of Bruno Groning are so well documented that this 3 hours videos will blow your mind... It is a bit difficult here to establish fraud....Try it.... 😊 Good luck.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNlXuclHhVc |
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260132610_A_summary_of_research_investigating_echolocation_abilities_of_blind_and_sighted_humans To some very limited degree. If a blind person can ride a bike on a crowd street then there may be something to it. I am sure blind people mental capacity can develop to compensate for the lost of vision, but to say human can have the ability as bats which is quite inaccurate. Because they take advantage of their hands and because they walk on solid earth they dont swim or fly...Because they need to use the stick to know if there are obstacles on their path. They can't do that with sound echo. |
Can these people maneuver in a dark room? No because they are not bats. There is a difference from having some special skills vs. actually possessing capability that can paint the surrounding with sound. Bats can do that and dolphins can but human can’tmany blind people see with sounds it is a common place fact illustrating the human abilities like animals... Try that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AofvXF6UQvc This case of Ethan and daniel is pure echolocation in human https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9lCbFOJ18Q There is more in human perception that there is in a voltmeter.... That does not means that cable direction exist.... That means we cannot trust a frequencies meter to know it exist or not .... Saying the opposite is faith in a witch called technology.... Technology is NOT science by any means.... |
Funny thing is there are numerous examples of people having something very much akin to sonar. It generally is referred to as echolocation, and has been the focus of some experiments/studies, scientific-like and everything ( they probably even use voltmeters and stuff ).Can these people maneuver in a dark room? No because they are not bats. There is a difference from having some special skills vs. actually possessing capability that can paint the surrounding with sound. Bats can do that and dolphins can but human can't. |
You see djones51. Look at these last posts. They have nothing to do with the topic. There is not point getting riled with people who claim their position is scientific while illustrating they don’t understand the science. My friend the cable guy contracted a scientist to do something. Sure he did. That is why there is no report or evidence of this. You can’t argue against that. How do you argue against something completely lacking substance? You can’t argue against stuff that is made up. It’s not even worth it to try. Their arguments end up nothing but a call to faith. There is a clear tell between people who know what they are talking about and those that do not. |
And i will add that perceived sound by humans are not "in the cable " but are created by the brain body.... And these qualities are not necessarily only illusions or placebos, they can be for sure, but they can be indication of other phenomena also... Then what is perceived in sound experience cannot always be measured with simple electronic tools... And there exist also the possibility for some qualities of the cable not measured yet by our actual tools to give rise in some conditions for educated listeners ( the right audiophile bias) to this percieved difference between directions... I dont know....And none of the "objectivist" here knows the final answer either with absolute confidence.... They only claim what they claims with what they know in physics.... Those who vouch for this difference describe their listening experience...Who is right is an open question.... Some perhaps make money with "cables" marketing but it is not a reason to be unscientific here with this subject.... I am interested by this subject anyway and i dont know the answer... |
Here is an article illustrating why music is not reducible to acoustic for those who dont know.... https://maplelab.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Schutz-09-The-Mind-of-the-Listener-Acoustics-Perception-and-the-Musical-Experience.pdf |
I don’t even know what this means. If you’re claiming music is not reducible to physical soundwaves you’re wrong.My point is that processing of sound by the brain /body is multidimensional, after an article about visual and hearing pathways used by the brain in the processing of sounds impressions, here is an article about the participation of the motor system in the evaluation of timbre experience... If you dont know that sound experience CANNOT be reduced to pure physics you know nothing.... Sorry.... If many people testimonies said that cable direction is important PERHAPS something is manifested through the complex multidimensional ways the brain/body evaluated sound and could explain or being related to this experience about wired direction... Are we obliged to be stubborn? Are we obliged to reduce psychoacoustic science to acoustic only and reduce sound experience to some very unidimensional tools in engineering of cables? We are not..... By the way accusing me of derailing this thread is pure bad faith.... I already contributed with few interesting articles and even if wires direction experience could be proved to be only a "placebos" , these articles are interesting and NECESSARY because it seems some dont even understand that music processing experience is NOT reducible to acoustic... A simple example of that is the " musical time concept " which is a body/brain autonomous time unrelated to the time of the clock, which autonomous time is born from the works qualities to be played in an organic manner....... No maestro direct and conduct an orchestra with the help of a clock to recreate the musical time related to a specific symphonies.... Time here is a WHOLE without parts.....The metronome indication is a start point for the synchronization of the orchestra not an endpoint...The endpoint of an interpretation is a "time" or a complex duration which is qualitatively differentiated and not quantitatively reducible to the equal division parts of a clock.... All other musical concepts could be described this way transecending pure physical acoustic...It is all psychoacoustic science matter for analysis and experiment like in the article i just submit here... Science is not a "comic book" matter with 2 opposing gangs : the "objectivist" and the "subjectivists"... I prefer the less stubborn of these 2 gangs here .... But i dont have opinion myself about the subject of directed wiring, i only had a working brain....And i think that perception is NEVER unidimensional..... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322467774_Embodied_listening_and_timbre_Perceptual_acoustical_and_neural_correlates |
Djones51, you are going about this all wrong. Things like this used to bother me, but I found it is better to let audiophiles have their cable delusions. The more the better. The more they spend on cables the less money they have to spend on the things that matter to sound. That means less competition for us to purchase those items. The more they spend on things that don’t matter the less we need to spend on that do. Let them twist science with their rather interesting views, let them insult engineers. It tells much about them and they hurt themselves more than anyone else. They make fun of other websites meanwhile the likes of Toole and Pass, and many actual audio experts will post at those sites, not here. People who have moved the science sound forward are not here are they? I did see Ted Denney started to post here though. See what I mean? |