So many great golden era DD tables out there, what do you recommend for $1000?

lewm"Clearthink, Not at all mocking your command of the English language, and you know it. Your choices of verbs and adjectives used in triplicate is impeccable.'

Thank you very much I do try very hard lewm and I appreciate your comments.

Received the step down today.
99.8 and 99.9vac from the twin receptacles so good to go.
Very happy with this JVC QLA7 TT and have a vintage nos Glanz cart in it right now and possibly a little light in the bass but very detailed and punchy.

Hopefully all set for a while.
Famous Last words.

And they are last words.
Thanks for the fish and so long.
Ciao

Thanks for the update and happy listening Uber....🎼

Assembled this system in 2018 for a friend locally.
He’s leaving the country and willing to sell his analog system this year.
Anyone who need a perfect Victor UA-7045 tonearm for $750 feel free to contact me.

There is a decent AT20SLa cartridge, Stax headshell. Turntable is very rare mint condition Technics SP-20 (black one). I’m gonna help him to sell all these.

Just curious who is that imbecile who reported the moderator about my last post about Victor tonearm?

Chak, Was your post removed?

bimasta, Please use only the world's smallest violin to lament the plight of poor, embattled CT. 

Just curious who is that imbecile who reported the moderator about my last post about Victor tonearm?

I read that Post before it was removed.There was nothing controversial that I can remember......Did you mention a Nationality? 🤣

I tried to find a way to keep a post in support of this thread short and directed to a particular DD TT, but the thread has bounced around with a variety of suggestions and pointers, resulting in my wanting to share more broadly.
Firstly and unusually I have viewed every post on this thread, and many posters
recommendations are known for their valued performances, as comparisons to much more expensive Vintage and Modern TT’s.
There has also been the inclusion of Idler Drive and Belt Drive TT’s, which I have not gauged any real follow up interest in, so I am assuming the OP is keeping their focus on the DD options being proposed.
I am not going to go into too much discussion on the differences between the various designs drive mechanics, but there is a very good white paper from Brinkman that will give clear descriptions on the differences in the designs and how they will effect a operation of a device, as well as outline the design considerations that are required to alleviate the negative aspects of each design.
I will recommend this as a reading material, and welcome one to have a cup of coffee and and a browse.
My experiences with Idler Drives and Belt Drives, has been a long journey,
I don’t propose that I have had the best TT’s out there, Garrard, Lenco and Linn are my experiences through ownership.
Where I have ended up is that to extract the very best from these types of devices as Vintage Products, a servicing consideration is best actioned, Bearing Servicing, Motor Servicing, Drive Material Exchange, i.e Idler Wheel Rubber or Rubber Belt.
Wth the above out of the way, then a consideration for the Plinth or Chassis material will yield very noticeable inprovements in the delivery.
If a consideration for how the mounting set up the TT is to be placed on, then much more performance benfits will be noticed.
When the above is in place, there is one last addition that will have a very impressionable effect on the performance, and that is to add a
Stand Alone, Speed Control/Mains Conditioning Power Supply.
These Power Supply Devices come at a cost and if they are capable of being Quartz Locked to a particular frequency, then a $1000+ for a recognised Brand is close to the ball park cost.
That is a substantial outlay to attempt to achieve a noticable improvement in a performance from a TT, and many have been carrying out this method for many years.
There is another way though where all the outlined considerations stated are reshuffled, as the process sort of reverses itself when going down this road,
which will result in the robbing of the investigator of the wonderment created by adding a high quality Speed Controller/Mains Conditioner as the finale to their endeavours.
So here goes for the outlay of a appoximation of $1000, there is a TT available with a built into the design Quartz Locked Speed Controlled/Mains Conditioning
Power Supply, which is generically known as a DD Turntable.
The DD TT adds up to a lot of TT for the outlay, and through its fundamental design, has a excellent power supply, equivelent or better than stand alone end game power supplies that other TT’s designs aspire to.
Also for the $1000 dollars, especially if the most noted DD TT’s are being considered, there is a high quality bearing working with a TT design that will generate less noise than any of the other designs.
In my view the DD as a TT is a very worthy place to go when it comes to having a
TT. To date I have got a fully overhauled SP10 MKII with works carried out by a renouned EE on this design.
I have a Original Spec TS 8000 and a TS 8000 udergoing major surgery under the hood to completely alter the methods used by the manufacturers build.
I will soon have a DP-80, as well as a model not referred to on this thread, that I will inform the OP of next.
I was informed by a individual of a Vintage DD TT they have been trialling, this idividual has a access to very expensive equipment as their profession is in HiFi retail.
The individual has another hobby, and that is Vintage equipment and offering evaluations, this is not part of their business model, it is just good old inquisitiveness.
The better performing discovered items are compared to very expensive modern items to make a reference.
In the case of this thread the Individual rated the Micro Seiki DDX 1500 as a TT that will hold itself with some of the high priced modern brands it has been compared to, I trust the reporting so see no real reason to doubt the statement.
I have shared personnal mails with this person to gather further info on their reporting on cetain devices, and been satisfied with the description on offer.
Not too long ago the Aurex SR 510 was a new contender in the position to be evaluated, I was not too interested, as the Brand was not Hip, but I read on out of interest, and when I learnt that the reporting on the performance was being compared to the Micro Seiki DDX 1500 that got me very interested.
To learn that this comparison was drawn from a SR 510 with the Stock Tonearm and built in Phonostage, I was more than intrigued to say the least.
In a mail there was a discussion about the percieved improvements that might be had from a exchanged Tonearm ad bypassing the inbuilt Phonostage, and all roads lead to, ’I’m getting one’.
I have got one for me and one for a friend, it will be with me soon and given fair lore to show itself off in the company of the other TT’s.
Strangley I feel very confident for it.
I will report back on the listening experience when I feel sure of the evaluation.

bigkidz,
I looked up the Sony 8750 on Vintage Knob. Some photos suggest it has a coreless motor.  Do you know whether it does or not?  If it does, then maybe it might be a stealth L07D, as you suggest.
I don't think anyone would say that a Yamaha GT1000 is worth more in the marketplace than a GT2000. I'd say that both the GT750 and the GT1000 could be had for less than $1000 or maybe a very little more than $1000, in the case of the GT1000.

Is there a reason golden age DD turntables became golden age?  Or conversely, why did the high-end move to belt-drive? 

I think there is.

Fundamentally, golden age DD tables employed a PLL (phased-locked loop) to stabilize rotational velocity to a very accurate degree.  The problem herein is that the frequency response of this negative feedback loop (that's what a PLL is) is right in the middle of the audio band, sitting on top of vocals.  Yeah.  So for every disturbance or increase in stylus drag, there is a corresponding error term which gets amplified a drives a proportional (PID actually) response in the motor to compensate, adding it's own signature.  

I'm pretty sure Fremer pointed this out a long time ago. 

A DD may have an easy time hitting 33.3333 RPM long term average, but short term in-audio-band response may become audible and annoying.  In short, that's why a decent belt-driven table is more relaxing and less fatiguing over the long term.

Thoughts?

immediate thoughts is that there already exists a whole thread especially dedicated to that subject. 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/stylus-drag-fact-or-fiction

@hagtech  

Is there a reason golden age DD turntables became golden age? Or conversely, why did the high-end move to belt-drive?

Thoughts?

Could you please recall Japanese turntable manufacturer who has moved to Belt Drive from Direct Drive ? I can't remember anyone. 

Do you own a Direct Drive turntable to compare it to a belt Drive at least to confirm your statement for yourself ? Do you actually hear any problem when you're playing records on high-end Direct Drive turntable ?  

Personally i have never ever experienced any single problem with high-end Direct Drive turntables such as Technics SP-10mkII, SP-20, Luxman PD-444, Denon DP-80 ... even my Victor TT-101 is working. I have no idea what Mr.Fremer is talking about. Probably a $3k vintage Direct Drive owner should buy a $6k modern belt drive instead pretending for upgrade? In Fremer's wold it will be a $60k belt drive, right ? I will never do that and i can't imagine anyone, who own a High-End DD, trading it for a belt drive. 

Belt Drive, say it again. OMG   

What i see in Analog Planet videos from various High-End shows is the ugliest belt drive turntables ever, for insane prices!  

P.S. I want to remind you that his review for new Technics DD was very positive. 

As far as I know Micro never moved from direct drive to belt drive. They simultaniously offered a range of direct drives (DD-series) and belt drives (BL-series). That being said, they went much higher end with belt drives (RX- and SX-series) than they ever did with direct drives. This might suggest that they had stronger faith in the capabilities of belt drive.

There's one point in their 80's catalogue where direct drive and belt drive sort of converged. This is the 1500-series platform, which offered the DDX-1500 direct drive (their top direct drive model) as well as the RX-1500 belt drive, which was the entry level of the big Micro's. It could be upgraded to include all the features also found in the highest end models, including gunmetal plateaus, air bearing and vacuum disc stabilizer. It would be interesting to compare the DDX-1500 with the basic RX-1500 (with aluminum plateau and the motor drive attached to the unit), using the same armboard, tonearm and cartridge. This would be a fair 'shoot out' between direct drive and belt drive, all else being equal. Has anyone ever done this?

The designer of the top belt (or string) drive Micro's founded a new company called TechDas, modernising his old designs with current technology. This would suggest that belt drive is - and perhaps always was - his preferred technology. He's now on a 'world tour' with the ultimate AirForce Zero. This monstrosity makes the old top Micro SX-8000 II look like an entry level table......

I can only think of one Japanese manufacturer still making DD tables.  Who else is left?

I've never owned a DD table, so cannot confirm via personal listening tests what the sonic differences might be.  But that doesn't make the servo circuit go away.  It is still there!  It does operate with lag and it does perform corrections within the audio band.  I just can't say how noticeable it may be.  Some tables will be better than others, obviously.

Belt drives have issues too, with elasticity, pulley tolerances, etc.  The key difference will be if there is a negative feedback servo or not.

The problem is similar with linear regulators.  They also operate with a servo within the audio band, reacting to changes in audio signal (unless circuit is balanced or class A).  In this case I have heard the differences.  It is even more pronounced when the audio circuit uses feedback.  Now you have two servos working against each other, each with a different step response!  If the filtering is not done well, the effect is a bit of "technicolor" brightness, sort of like the "sharpness" control on an old TV.  A little bit may be good, a lot is bad.  The sound can get shrill or smeared.

Of course, if you are a DJ doing scratching, then DD is the only way to go.  You need that torque.  :)

Of course, if you are a DJ doing scratching, then DD is the only way to go. You need that torque. :)

@hagtech

First of all we’re not talking about $300 Direct Drive turntables here to serve "wanna be a dj" persons in their bedroom. These turntables may have some problems you have mentioned. But please do not mix together professional niche and high-end.

The finest new Direct Drive turntable SL1000R from Technics cost $18k in USA today, and it is made in Japan. Here is a thread about it. This is reference class Direct Drive for modern High-End market and i doubt anyone in Europe and USA can compete with it nowadays, especially at this price! Matsushita is a giant company! The reason why Japan is the leader in Direct Drive technology is probably because they have been doing it for such a long time.

You will not find any single problem you’re talking about in earlier Technics SP-10mkII and mkIII from the 70s/80s. Even 30 years later those vintage Technics SP-10mkIII is one of the best DD ever made and still cost a lot.

Not every top class Direct Drive have a high torque like Technics motor, for example the Victor TT-101, Luxman PD-444, Denon DP-80 does not have such a high torque and immediate start, but they are also amazing turntables for audiophiles.

Direct Drive is indeed a japanese tradition and they are doing it better than anybody else.

Don't feed the troll.

Dear @hagtech  :  Unfortunatelly nothing is perfect in audio and as you pointed out DD has its own trade-offs as BD units too.

We can found out really good quality performances with DD and with BD TTs.

Our choices are determinated by the choice of the best trade-offs for each one of us.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I am past engaging in the BD vs DD vs ID debates.  I have come to agree with what Raul wrote above, and I've made my choice in favor of DD turntables (and a much modified Lenco) based on bang for the buck.  The really good BDs, to my ears, start at ~$25,000 (new).
Now for my real question: Does anyone know where I can find a video showing how to service (change the lubricant) in my DP80 bearing well?  If someone can provide a verbal description and/or some still pics to go with, that would be much appreciated.  Thanks.  If you think I should start a new thread on this topic, let me know.

I quite happily have all bases covered.
Garrard 401. Idler.
JVC QL-A7. DD.
Sony PS-LX22. BD.

Last one is cheap and cheerful but does the job in my second system.

Both the Garrard and the JVC have their plus and minus points. Hard to decide which I prefer in the main rig do just going to leave both ready to rock!

uberwaltz "I quite happily have all bases covered. Garrard 401. Idler. JVC QL-A7. DD. Sony PS-LX22. BD."

If you really had "all bases covered" you would not need three turntables.

Obviously you have both reading and compression issues.
Your comments are not warranted, wanted or desired.

If you really had "all bases covered" you would not need three turntables.

I currently have 6 turntables (5 in use). I’m clearly off base! Then again, I have 4 complete systems. I rarely use the turntables in two of them, but am glad they are there when I want to listen to them. One I use mainly for play grading my records when I put them on Discogs. I’ve been slowly doing that just so that I have an inventory of them.

The two currently in my main system are both direct drive turntables - a JVC QL-Y66F and a Technics SL1200 MKII. I have the JVC set up with a nice cartridge for my pristine records and the Technics has a Shure V15 Type IV with a JICO SAS stylus for my less than perfect records.

The one in my bedroom is an old Realistic Lab 400 DD table.  It has an auto shutoff feature so I can put on some music and not worry about falling asleep and having the stylus in the runout groove all night.

Having three turntables (or five) is, you know, fun. It's like having three girlfriends ;-) .

I recently picked up a vintage Micro Seiki DD-35 from a local auction. I was very pleased to find that the previous (and original) owner had taken meticulous care of it. It was extremely clean with no scratches on the beautiful rosewood plinth. More importantly, mechanically, it was in perfect working order. The original MA-505 tonearm was in perfect shape and included the original H-303X headshell, mounted with a Micro Acoustic 2002e cartridge with a stylus in excellent condition.
   
After a good bit of cleaning, testing, adjusting and re-adjusting, it was time to hook it up. The sound was absolutely sublime. I ultimately ended up replacing the MA 2002e with the Audio-Technica VM540ML that was mounted on my current turntable. The improvement wasn’t huge, but enough for me to stick with the AT and store away the 2002e for future use.

Bottom line, I think this is one of the best sub $1000 DD turntables you can get, if you can find one. I couldn’t be happier with mine and hope to get many years of use out of it.


https://postimg.cc/XXwqDLWy

https://postimg.cc/fSKwWHW2

Sweet looking tt Catmandude, thank you for sharing.
My Garrard 401 uses a micro seiki ma505ls arm and it is without doubt one very nice arm when in good shape, love the on the fly vta adjustment if it is set up correctly.

Enjoy the table, it certainly looks good and clean.

And of course after you have bought something, a very desirable tt pops up right here, very nice looking vintage TT-81 for a fair price considering it includes a dual tonearm plinth and a nice tone arm imho.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9i7be-jvc-victor-tt-81-turntable-motor-cl-p2-base-and-ua-7082-t...

That TT-81 looks to be a bargain...😃
Then there's this TT-101 which can't seem to find a buyer....?

Was just thinking today (while listening to it) what an incredible performer the TT101 is. It was worth every bit of the aggravation I endured to get it fixed, finally. (Thanks, JP.)
"Catmandude", Probably the best on line moniker I have seen yet. Congrats.

Thanks Uberwaltz and Lewm. 👍

Listening to a little Stan Getz and Charlie Byrd on the Micro Seiki as we speak.  Just beautiful.

I forgot to mention that I have my turntable hooked up to a Schiit Mani phono preamp connected to Rotel pre running into an McIntosh 240.  It's truly a great combo.  I like the Rotel but it's just a placeholder while I save up for a nice McIntosh pre.  

Question for any member that may know.

I am finding that my QL-A7 is auto stopping/ lifting the tonearm a little prematurely for some records.
Now we are talking in the realm of only quarter inch of run off left, so it is albums that are pushing the content envelope per side that are my problem.

So does anyone know how that shut off may be adjusted so the tonearm can travel a little further before game over?

Stan Getz and Charlie Byrd would sound beautiful on any turntable, I suspect.
Uber, if that TT81 includes a 7082 tonearm, I'd say you'd really like it more than your QL-A7.  As to the early lift-off problem, I suggest you go on the internet, Vinyl Engine first of all, and search for an owners manual (if one did not come with your unit) and a service manual.  That's where you have to start.  In my experience, there is no harm done to either the cartridge or the LP, if the stylus sits in the run-out grooves even for a minute or two until you can get off the listening seat and manually lift the tonearm. Thus, automatic lift-off holds no particular appeal for me.

Lewm
Yes I agree the auto shutoff is not a feature I would search out to own but the TT has it and I want to adjust it, I will do some research but sometimes members here can be more helpful than any manual.

And I suspect you are right on the tt81......

I guess you were so right on the tt-81.
I struck a deal for it.
Oh well it's only money.

Within this price bracket, I would recommend the Sansui Sr-929, aka "black beauty"

My brother has Denon DP59. Never had any issues with it.

I basically now have three very nice tt that I like the sound and operation of each one set up in my main rig.
So here are my next questions.
I am thinking of having all three plugged into say a high quality passive switching box so I can easily swap from one to the other without changing cable inputs on my phono which only has one input.
The question is would anybody consider this to be potential detrimental move regarding sq by signal degradation or?
Does anybody do this themselves here?
And lastly would anybody have a suggestion for a high quality switch box that would work for three tt inputs?
Thanks

In my experience, with more unnecessary connections, there will be a sonic price to pay. Especially with phono.

@uberwaltz Luxman AS4III switch.
However, the phono connection is the worst place you could ever install a switch. The rule of thumb is to keep the connection as short as possible from tonearm/cartridge to phono preamp/sut.

@uberwaltz  
in the phono stage signals of the microvolt order pass, use of commutation boxes and switches can happen as well as worsen the sound of capturing noises and hum; don't ruin everything.
Rather it changes pre phono looking for some pre amp also vintage that has more phono inputs or add another preamplifier.

About where my thoughts lay.
Well the sut has two inputs so will leave at that.
Note to self ..... Don't be lazy!

Got the time this morning to set up the TT81 with a Glanz cartridge for now.
Hard to say at this stage if it is much different to the TT71.
I do like the arm though, very well built and very easy to set up and the VTA on the fly is simplicity itself.
My micro seiki ma505ls on the Garrard 401 also has VTA on the fly but the 7082 is a more elegant system and a little easier to adjust while music is playing.

I really need to stop looking at Audiogon and eBay classifieds now...…. 

Gallus, You got me interested when you mentioned the Luxman switch box, because Luxman makes good stuff.  However, the AS4 seems to be made for AV systems, which is to say it's for switching high level signals, not mV level signals as seen from a phono cartridge.  I think a high quality switch could be done with relays, but you would want to use only the highest quality parts and to have a smart person design and build it.  So, the cost would be correspondingly high ($1000 or more, I would think), and STILL there would be an inevitable signal loss involved.  I've thought about having such a switch made for my system, and my numbers are based on an actual conversation with a potential custom builder.  I decided not to do it, but I do own two high quality phono stages that each provide more than one pair of phono inputs.