Geez, don’t tell me this is going to be another one of those dreadful, What about this? What about that? threads.
Snake oil, fraud, confirmation bias
It is becoming increasingly apparent that many threads about legitimate topics devolve into one or more of the contributors here making claims of snake oil, fraud, or confirmation bias thereby derailing the conversation beyond the valid and relevant thread topic and this is getting ridiculous. For anyone here who honestly holds the position that there is snake oil and fraud in the world of Music Reproduction Systems I challenge them to prove their claims in court it should be an easy task based on the claims they make here in Audiogon AND they will make a fortune because in the US once proven they can file a class action suit and profit enormously from the efforts of others to deceive. These people regularly claim that "there is no evidence" that things such as cables or fuses make a difference when in actual fact Audiogon is filled with evidence that these things make very real differences in
Music Reproduction Systems of course those who claim fraud reject that evidence as "confirmation bias" but in absence of any documentation from them they are only repeating the claim they have made so many times that has been refuted many times here by those who have demonstrated to there satisfaction that they make a difference. I think in actual truth the real fraudsters here are those that repeatedly make these claims of snake oil and fraud and often they have no experience to back up there claims they simply say the claims are impossible!
125 responses
OP, I love to laugh even if it's really tough. Congrats on posting one of the most hilarious post of Audiogon especially For anyone here who honestly holds the position that there is snake oil and fraud in the world of Music Reproduction Systems I challenge them to prove their claims in court That might work, but afraid that judges and jury in that so-called "court" are just the same unaware and uneducated dummies that believe in 'magic' and Hollywood's fairy tales. |
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It is great to see folks challenging wild claims and marketing hype. This is very healthy. This should be encouraged. Those who hear something different in instances when they really shouldn't, have an awful lot to learn. Here is an article about menus and how they affect people’s perception .http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20171120-the-secret-tricks-hidden-inside-restaurant-menus People who deny that this clever expectation setting marketing hype (even when not true at all) has any affect on them are just fooling themselves. |
Actually the clocks work even when the person doesn't know the clocks are there. Or if a friend comes over. Assuming you have friends. The clocks can be hidden in a drawer or whatever. So it cannot be expectation bias or imagination or placebo effect. Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I. 🤡 |
I just don’t like the liars who tell some nube they hear the direction of their fuse. @kosst_amojanWhen I encountered the idea of fuse directionality, I thought it was pretty funny. I still do, but I also figured out what it is they are hearing and measured it. You can do it too- with a simple DVM. The funny thing is, the snake oil guys didn’t want to hear about how I could measure what was going on (and for the record, its the voltage drop across the fuse, which can be different when you reverse it because the contacts of the fuse sit differently in the holder; you can get the same effect by spinning the fuse in the holder without reversing it. When the voltage drop is minimized it sounds better). You would think that having some objective confirmation would have been helpful but no. My theory is they don’t want the mystery to go away. More importantly though, its not worth the time arguing about it! |
If it’s not worth the time arguing about it why are you still arguing about it? 😛 Also, if I am a liar how come my pants aren’t on fire? 🔥 Your "theory" of the fuse holders is all wet. And I’ll tell you why. It’s all wet because directionality based on how the fuse contacts the fuse holder is *unpredictable.* The way the fuse contacts the fuse when you rotate it is random. Therefore you cannot predict which direction the fuse will sound best. By contrast, the directionality of the fuse is completely *non-random*. The fuse always sounds best in the direction of least resistance. It is not (rpt not) random. And because fuse direction is predictable it means the fuse holder has nothing to do with it. Follow? So, your "theory" of the fuse holder makes about as much sense as the theory that the directionality of cables and interconnects is determined by how the RCA connectors on both ends make contact. "If it doesn't make sense it's not true." - Judge Judy |
@kosst_amojan How should a chef measure the flavor of a meal? How does a nice young las who receives a bouquet of roses from her beau measure the fragrance? How do you or anyone else measure the incredibly complex process that is an individual's hearing? Are everyone's ears the same? Does everyone's brain process sound the same as everyone else? If so, is that a constant from which we can discern from your measurements that we all hear exactly the same? Come on... your religion of "All things are measurable" is well... your religion. Does that make a tape measure or sound pressure meter your god? Again...I sympathize that you can't hear cable differences or component burn-in etc. Truth be told, I would not process the smell of those roses well as my sense of smell is not nearly as acute as most folks I encounter. Wonder how we can measure that? |
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Um yes a lot of creatures hear better than humans I was referring to test equipment. And in addition to ego what we have on those creatures is the ability to speak and express our opinions. Otherwise I am sure these forums would be littered with opinionated bats. In the meantime we are stuck with humans and our hearing. And koost excellent "catch" calling me out on my "false statement" . |
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@kosst_amojan I didn't assume you to have psychiatric challenges and don't feel qualified to make such a diagnosis. Although your self-diagnosis explains much about your seemingly senseless ramblings. Perhaps that's where fact and fiction have become juxtaposed for you. All the best! I hear that with appropriate treatment... 😃 |
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*sigh* The 'tempest in a tea cup' continues....on and on, anon.... One of the 'function' keys on the typ. keyboard needs an app that makes "IMHO" appear....because most of the 'sturm und drang' that appears whenever an OP launches into a 'controversy' over 'something' that's stepped on their tail by 'someone' posting 'something' that's contrary to their 'HO'.... This activity reminds me of what would occur if one were to affix the tails of 2 cats together in some fashion, and suspend them from a 'clothesline'....for those of us who remember such an item....a 'clothesline', just to be clear.... (Please note: I do not recommend, nor approve of such treatment of felines, and will call the authorities if I witness such behaviour. It's an 'analogy'. If you don't recognize the word, look it up.) Now, I suspect that many of 'us' simply like to view the 'push/pull' of such seemingly endless forums as a version of 'cheap thrills', a 'slow motion car wreck' of sorts. I used to be of that audience. "Let's watch these fools fight over the quantity of angels on a pin head!" Now...I'm just bored. In the future...(how about tomorrow?)...post your 'grievance', supply an address to another site (preferably far from here) and have your online version of a back alley confrontation Elsewhere. Yes, I can and will go 'elsewhere', having delivered 'MHO'. To paraphrase an old McDonalds' ad line, "You deserve a brick today." Consider it delivered. I'll send you the bill....;) |
This thread is an excellent example of the Galileo Inquisition. I have posted frequently on the subject of Science having become the new Religion. Is this thread an example of Lone Wolf terrorism? I.e., while officially a part of the Scientofic community, an individual is inspired by what he perceives as their will. THE GALILEO INQUISITION The Galileo affair (Italian: il processo a Galileo Galilei) was a sequence of events, beginning around 1610,[1] culminating with the trial and condemnation of Galileo Galilei by the Roman Catholic Inquisition in 1633 for his support of heliocentrism.[2] In 1610, Galileo published his Sidereus Nuncius (Starry Messenger), describing the surprising observations that he had made with the new telescope, namely the phases of Venus and the Galilean moons of Jupiter. With these observations he promoted the heliocentric theory of Nicolaus Copernicus (published in De revolutionibus orbium coelestium in 1543). Galileo’s initial discoveries were met with opposition within the Catholic Church, and in 1616 the Inquisition declared heliocentrism to be formally heretical. Heliocentric books were banned and Galileo was ordered to refrain from holding, teaching or defending heliocentric ideas.[3] Galileo went on to propose a theory of tides in 1616, and of comets in 1619; he argued that the tides were evidence for the motion of the Earth. In 1632 Galileo, now an old man, published his Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, which implicitly defended heliocentrism, and was immensely popular. Responding to mounting controversy over theology, astronomy and philosophy, the Roman Inquisition tried Galileo in 1633 and found him "vehemently suspect of heresy", sentencing him to indefinite imprisonment. Galileo was kept under house arrest until his death in 1642. ...................... In case someone missed it the first few times around, here it is again. Intro to Zen and the Art of Debunkery "As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery." |
Measurements dont apply to the enjoyment of roses or a meal but the roses may be carefully grown in a measured and controlled way and the meal prepared with measured ingredients and use of heat as well as technique. The subjectivists continually confound measurements used to rigorously engineer and test high fidelity equipment and sound reproduction to the feeling one gets from listening to Mahler or Mozart. These are two entirely different aspects and conflating them is just the consequence of a feeble mind. Of note the Snake Oil purveyors constantly appeal to subjective elements that are associated with our perception of music rather than stating a performance specifcation for what their Snake Oil actually does in a measurable way. This is deliberate and it works well but only on feeble minds. |
Uh, actually we already know that many of these "Snake Oil" devices cannot be measured, at least not using conventional methods. That’s why you have to use your listening skills to evaluate them. Hel-loo! "OK, Give me some examples," you implore. OK, audio cones, the Clever Clock, Silver Rainbow Foil, Cream Electret, Morphic Message Labels, the Green Pen, a purple pen, a black pen, the Red X Pen, demagnetizing CDs, Mpingo disc. Tiny little bowl resonators, tube traps, and other things that probably don’t arouse the overly suspicious mind of the wary naysayer CAN be measured using ordinary means. Besides the measurement argument is kind of moot since nobody measures anything anyway - not reviewers, not naysayers, nobody! They don’t measure cables, they don’t measure fuses, they don’t measure room treatments, audio racks, isolation devices or CD treatments, not even crystals, so in reality the measurement argument is pretty feeble, to use your word. |
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This OP is easily one of the most disturbing posts I have read recently. This fellow has the chutzpah to attack those of us who have a solid understanding of science and engineering -- and KNOW that cables and fuses CANNOT make a difference -- as snake oil peddlers. Scientific illiteracy is strong with this one! |
