@debjit_g You mentioned the Musetec and Mojo DAC's are different. Can you explain how they are different. Can you mention some of the DAC's you have had in the past?
Six DAC Comparison
I am in the middle of comparing the sound of six different DACs in my system. I own them all (I know weird) but one of them is still within a trial/return timeframe.
Not to share specific comparisons today, but a couple of observations so far are that first, they all definitely sound different from each other. On one hand, they all sound pretty good and play what is fed to them without significant flaws but on the other hand there are definite sonic differences that make it easy to understand how a person might like the sound of some of them while not liking others.
Second, raises the observation that most of them must be doing something to shape the sound in the manner the designer intended since one of the DACs, a Benchmark DAC3 HGA, was described by John Atkinson of Stereophile as providing "state-of-the-art measured performance." In the review, JA closed the measurements section by writing, "All I can say is "Wow!" I have also owned the Tambaqui (not in my current comparison), which also measured well ("The Mola Mola Tambaqui offers state-of-the-digital-art measured performance." - JA). The Benchmark reminds me sonically of the Tambaqui, both of which are excellent sounding DACs.
My point is that if the Benchmark is providing "state-of-the-art measured performance," then one could reasonably presume that the other five DACs, which sound different from the Benchmark, do not share similar ’state-of-the-art" measurements and are doing something to subtly or not so subtly alter the sound. Whether a person likes what they hear is a different issue.
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@brbrock as I was mentioning earlier I can’t justify a real comparison between the two as I did a bunch of mods to my amps/pre, music server, etc right after I received the X SE. They were already in the pipeline, so I couldn’t avoid it. As with burn-in/break-in, it’s a roller coaster ride, especially when it involves Furutech NCF components. I will get to a meaningful comparison when my system settles in but these two DACs have different flavor - I will not say more but at a high level, Mojo is more of denser, Musetec is more airy. However, take these with a grain of salt and my opinion might changes later. |
@brbrock For what it’s worth, some of DACs I owned, PS Audio Direcstream, Denafrips Terminator, Mytek Brooklyn, Mivera Purestream, Matrix Audio Element X (excellent measuring DAC), 4 Lampizator models (Amber 3, Baltic 3, Baltic 4, Atlantic TRP), Aqua La Scala, Musetec 005 and now the X SE. My plan going forward is to upgrade the X SE to NC and then also get the 006 (I am very much fascinated by the choice of parts and design). |
I never owned the Gaia, but I did own the Hermes and had problems with it requiring me to send it back to Denafrips, although that may have been a fluke. I do see the potential advantage of the Gaia DDC when using Denafrips' Terminator DAC since it offers the ability for clock syncing. I am not here to argue about sound quality between DDCs, and I am not promoting the Singxer SU-6 so I don't really have a dog in the fight, but I can say that inserting the Singxer did nothing to degrade the sound of my system and that it has worked reliably the entire time I have used it. Here are links to review measurements of both the Singxer SU-6 and the Denafrips Gaia by the same reviewer. The SU-6 was reviewed a couple of months prior to the Gaia and below are some conclusions by the reviewer,
and,
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I've seen Golden Sound's measurements, also ASR, another instance of measurements not telling you the true story. According to ASR $1k dacs are right up there with state of art, and dacs don't benefit from ddc. Sound quality is the final arbiter for my audio purchases and the equipment that comes and goes. |
By the way, being a curious person I decided to purchase Okto Dac some years ago, believe it held record at ASR for SNR at the time, one of the lowest jitter as well. And I owned Musetec 005 at the same time, relative poor measuring dac over there, Okto goes, Musetec stays, so much for ASR dac evaluations credibility, bye bye ASR. |
@wig - Thank you for the feedback. It has been satisfying to hear that several folks have used the information from this thread to successfully help with their DAC purchasing decisions. I really enjoyed my time with the Merason DAC1 MkII and I am not surprised to hear that it is an end-game DAC for some. I just found out that I may be getting the opportunity to try out a couple of additional DACs, which I will report on. I can’t say much yet except that one will be at the $10K +/- price point and the other at the sub-$4k price point.
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@mitch2 Although I am very pleased with my new Mojo Mystique X-24AM (which is a product that I was completely unaware of until you did this fantastic writeup of the 6-dac comparison) I’ll look forward to reading your write-ups on the upcoming dac’s. I’m not one to hop from one piece of gear to the next. I do my research, audition, and then select the piece that gives me the emotional connection to the music. When I get it right, I tend to keep that piece for decades. The X-24AM will be that piece for me. However, I still enjoy reading about what else is out there and hearing the passion that people have in their gear and the music that touches their souls. Thank you for introducing me to the Mojo! Best wishes, Don |
@mitch2 Thanks so much for the DM. As expected, your advice/perspective was 100% on the money. Will post once I make the next move (if there is a next move) Many thanks, JAMES. |
Some updates:
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Hey @mitch2 Looking forward to your thoughts on the Mystique Y -- although I believe the AM chokes put that DAC to about twice the MSRP of the Benchmark DAC3 HGC? Best, JAMES. |
This is my first post on Audiogon. Been lurking for a while as I have returned to audio after a significant break (career, kid, family, other priority hobbies/sports, etc). I just wanted to say THANK YOU! for all your efforts on this review. It is greatly appreciated and impressive to say the least. Fantastic to be able to get a POV across so many products and the few that I have heard align with your assessment so it is a valuable reference point for me. Thank you so much! |
@dantaudio - Thanks for the kind words, and welcome back to audio. If you are looking for information, there is a lot of knowledge here on this site and you can get meaningful responses from the members on just about any topic. The forum archives are also extensive and cover just about any audio topic. Since you have just "returned to audio after a significant break", you might enjoy spending some time looking at the virtual systems since many members have constructed unique listening spaces and very effective audio reproduction systems at a wide range of price points. |
@wig I finally got to spend some time with the Merason MkII DAC, and have to say that it is, as @mitch2 reports, a real winner. While I didn’t do a side-by-side with my Mojo Mystique X ’24, and the associated gear in our shop (Alma Music + Audio in Sterling, VA) was a good bit higher end than what I’ve got at home -- we’re running it through Stenheim’s excellent Alumine 5 speakers and a Vitus Audio Signature Series Integrated -- the delivery, depth, texture, speed, and detail were all just insanely good. I believe what you have on your hands is a real keeper. I’m still delighted with my Mojo purchase, and it’s sounding better and better as it continues to burn in (140+ hours now and counting), but I think you’re just fine with what you’ve got. Both of these manufacturers are to be commended for designing & building truly superlative products at a premium, but still reasonably affordable, price. Happy New Year, and happy listening! |
@wig - I agree, the Merason DAC1 MkII was a hard one to give up. I would have liked to keep it but just had too many DACs here. The Mojo EVO Pro was also hard to give up and the buyer received a very nice DAC with the Z-chips. Benjamin checked it out and adjusted it as-needed to as-new tolerances and then shipped it directly to the buyer. I remain happy with the Mojo X SE NCZ in my main system and the SMc DAC-2 GT-24 in a back-up role when I want to hear a Delta Sigma type DAC. Since I am done comparing different DACs, I have removed the Singxer SU-6 from the signal chain and now directly feed the X SE by USB directly through the USB output of my Sig Rendu SE Deluxe. I recently compared the S/PDIF outputs of the DDC and the Sonore ultraDigital converter. The sonic performance from using all of these input methods into the X SE is close, but if I had to rate them I would probably put the direct streamer to DAC USB connection at the top, followed by S/PDIF out of the Sonore ultraDigital converter, and then S/PDIF from the DDC. However, I would not bet on being able to reliably discern a difference if I were listening blind. I also have a clocked USB filter coming here in the next week or so that I will try. Next up, Benjamin is supposed to send me a Mystique Y to hear but otherwise I am done with DACs for now unless I find something interesting. It seems the next significant upgrade/change from Mojo Audio will probably be in 2026, with a Mystique Z DAC based on the BB PCM58 chips. Happy New Year all! |
@mitch2 First let me thank you for taking the time to put this out there.
I was considering the Metrum. Can you describe as you move up to these more expensive DAC’s, what they offer over the cheaper NOS stuff? Nos still sounds like NOS but better in some way? Or is it more just a change in sound quality but not an improvement in absolute terms over the Metrum? Would like to hear your review of the HOLO if you ever get one.
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@mitch2 Hey Mitch just checking to see if you are still getting the Mystique Y and if you have had a chance to listen to it yet? |
@cdc - I liked the Metrum DACs, and I liked the sound of the Pavane better than the Adagio (I compared them side by side for a while). They use DAC chips that Cees designed and had manufactured. His earlier DACs used industrial chips. The Metrum DACs definitely sound like R2R DACs but they don't share quite the same organic texture as the Mojo Audio DACs, IMO. The Metrum DACs are quite clean sounding for R2R and moving up their line adds body and drive, IME. I still have their Jade serving as DAC and VC in my outdoor system. You should try and hear one. @brbrock - As far as I know I am still supposed to be getting a Mystique Y. I thought it would be here by now so I should check in with Benjamin to find out what's up. @wig - Thank you! |
@brbrock - Mojo Audio Mystique Y AM ($4,999) is in the house and playing music. I don't know if I will go into the depth in writing about it that I did with the others but, it sounds pretty darn good right out of the gate. I basically transitioned directly from my (twice as expensive +) Mystique X SE NCZ DAC to the Mystique Y using the exact same system set-up, and my initial impression is that I didn't really give up much in the transition. I have been playing with quite a few different IC and speaker cables here lately and having this DAC will be an interesting test of how I can optimize the sound of the Mystique Y AM DAC by changing a cable or two. |
@mitch2 That is good to here that you have the MojoY. Keep me updated as you get more hours on it. |
Benjamin from Mojo Audio again... I did want to mention a few things about our Mystique Y. First of all, Mitch has the middle-priced Mystique Y AM with amorphous core chokes. If he had our Mystique Y NC with nano crystal core chokes the sound quality would have been even closer to his Mystique X NC Z. The reason is that aside from the single USB input and the AD1865 vs AD1862 DAC chips, the two DACs are nearly identical: identical USB input...identical power supplies...identical direct-coupled class A output stage...identical component parts quality...nearly identical chassis. MSRP on the Mystique Y AM that Mitch has is $5,499 whereas retail on the Mystique X NC Z he has was $12,499. So the Mystique Y AM is less than 45% the price. Our entry-level Mystique Y Fe with ferrous core chokes is only $3,999 which would be less than 1/3 the price of Mitch's Mystique X NC Z. Quite an exceptional value if like most of our customers all you use is the USB input. |
@mitch2 Hey Mitch how does the new DAC sound? I know it is suppose to be a tad more lively. Does the Mystique Y still beat the other DAC's you spoke about in the thread? |
The Mystique Y sounds good in my system. I am working on a write-up to post here but been a bit busy lately with regular life stuff. I will try to finish and post something this weekend. As a preview, no real surprises. Benjamin has been a straight shooter about both how good it sounds and the comparative differences between the Y and the X SE. |
I have always considered a "perfect measuring" DAC like the Benchmark as something a mastering engineer would use. Providing a baseline of clarity and evenness so the engineer can add the "flavors". In some regards, I would think an audiophile would want similar in their own system. The owner THEN can add their "own" flavor thru tone controls, warm/bright components, etc. However, most audiophiles have an existing system and need a digital source that fits in with their existing system where a "perfect measuring" Dac may overcompensate for some sound characteristics (warm/bright/lean, etc) Plus, with all that, we have the listener's room and their own personal Hearing abilities. The same with all of the reviewers out in youtube, internet or audio publication land. If we saw professional hearing test readouts with every reviewer, we may look at their opinions quite differently.
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The state of the art measuring DACs are great if you have a balanced room and a balanced system...most of us don't have that. Less precise DACs give us a softer sound...rounder edges...they are more forgiving and can add meat to the bone. Similar to but much more subtle to what a First Watt amp does...these DACs are art and can add beauty to a recording.
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A few words about the Benchmark DAC3 HGC. The Benchmark is like an elusive concept for me. How can a DAC that provides "state-of-the-art measured performance" not sound perfect and, why doesn’t it sound like every other DAC that provides "state-of-the-art measured performance"?
I am currently playing Benjamin’s Mystique Y AM in my system and I have been comparing it to my Mystique X SE NCZ. For personal calibration purposes I pulled the Benchmark out the other day, let it warm up, and then listened. I was amazed at how comparatively flat and sort-of lifeless it sounded. Sure, it played music, the bass was low, the highs were all there, it didn’t distort the sound, and it wasn’t noisy. However, sort of like fabric on a chair after too much time in a sunny spot, it simply didn’t "pop". Compared to Mojo Audio’s DACs, the Benchmark wasn’t as much fun because it didn’t express the same sense of body, fullness, depth, and tonal color. Does this mean the Mojo Audio DACs are distorting the truth to the benefit of listening enjoyment? Benjamin would probably say not, but, maybe. Hey, so what, they sound better! The other thought I had was about the Tambaqui, which is another DAC that supposedly provides "state-of-the-art measured performance".
Why then, is my recollection of the Tambaqui’s sound so different than what I hear from the Benchmark, when they both provide "state-of-the-art measured performance"? I remember a greater level of purity, refinement, and musical involvement from the Tambaqui than I hear from the Benchmark. At the time I owned it, I felt the Tambaqui was arguably "perfect sounding." I wouldn’t say that about the Benchmark, which doesn’t really do anything wrong, but just isn’t that exciting or fulfilling for me. Ultimately, I sold the Tambaqui when I decided that its version of "perfect sounding" wasn’t really doing it for me - you know, the old Jack Nicholson thing about handling the truth. I like the extra meat on the bones, tonal color, and physicality of the Mojo Audio DACs. I typically tell folks "buy what you like", and so I did. |
I look at it like this: there are probably a hundred variable involved in sound quality that the human ear / mind can perceive and only ten or so have measurements. So there is enormous room for variability. We are only measuring the big stuff. There is reproduction of sound at each frequency, how different frequencies interact, attack and decay... it goes on and on. This is why after my first couple years in high end audio I stopped looking at measurements (with a few exceptions on amps and speakers) and just listen or read the qualitative stuff. Just a couple comments about myself I was trained as a scientist and worked as such for ten years. I am always a scientist at heart... I have a home seismograph, weather station, pollution sensors. I track all my vital health variables, blood pressure, heart rate, VO2...etc. So, I am very pro analytical when it is useful... it is not very useful for high end audio. |
So true. I had a chance to demo the Mystique XSE and to my ears, in my room, with my gear, It was a stunning disappointment. The unit was used but in great shape. I just shipped it back to Hawthorne Stereo in Seattle so if anyone here is looking for one, they should still have it.
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In my view, it would be a mistake to base your decision on my experience. This is my entire point -- it’s not only subjective in terms of how you hear and what you like but room and system dependent. How can you possibly assume that we have any of the above in common? I suspect, judging from what I’ve read about the Mystique, that I’m likely an outlier. If you are seriously interested and want to save a bunch of money, I would check it out. If you have not done much research, then maybe not. Someone’s going to get a terrific deal.
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