Should I buy a VPI SCOUTMASTER. I OWN 25 RECORDS.
You sort of have to be dedicated to the vinyl ritual to a point. No need for crazy to enjoy but it's never going to be plug and play like Qobuz is and great sound can be had for not much over $200. The same $200 is NOT going to get you great vinyl reproduction sound that is for sure. If you don't feel it in your bones then don't bother TBH. Hate to put a negative spin on it but its reality. |
Several yers ago when very good DAC's and transports came on the market I was impressed with the "clean" sound of well done CD's. I found myself listening to CD's most of the time. The internal battle with my vinyl setup, and it was a good one, simply distracted me too much from the music. I now only do digital with an excellent PS Audio DAC and transport. I'll never go back to the labor-intensive world of vinyl. I recommend buying a very good DAC and streamer. That way you can focus on the music...after all that is what this is all about. |
I had a budget of about 4 grand to put into an analog setup. I think I am still going to do it but I am going to buy a used table for 2 grand and a used DAC for 2. Anyone heard of a Acoustic signature primus table? I can get one used for 1200 bucks. Then throw a 800 dollar Cartridge on it and call it a day. Anyone heard of Berkeley DAC's? BEL CANTO DAC? Can get those used for 2 grand. |
I recently got back into vinyl a couple years ago by purchasing a Scoutmaster with the jmw arm and a ortofon 2m blue mm cartridge. It sounded good to me and I was enjoying it more than cds on my PS audio direct stream dac/memory player(transport). Soon after I picked up another VPI arm wand with nordost wiring and a Hana SH cartridge. I was using a cheap Vincent phono preamp for a little while to get started and it sounded okay for 250 on sale. Things really improved when I picked up an Alnic H 1201 tubed phono preamp and Kiseki Purple Heart cartridge that I found here for a decent price. I also found a Fosgate signature Signature Phono preamp on usaudio that I couldn’t resist after getting a taste of tubes. I prefer the Fosgate over the Alnic even though it’s quite a bit noisier. I picked up a 6 month old VPI Prime a few months ago on Usaudio and love the sound of the sound of the 3D arm even though the Scoutmaster seemed to go a little deeper in the o low end. So to sum it all up I really fell hard back into vinyl which to me is just more musically involving and makes it hard to sit down and really enjoy digital anymore. I don’t have a lot of experience with other tables but VPI seem to hold there value pretty well and have an extensive upgrade path. If you can go listen to a decent table and and really good digital front end and see which one you want to invest more? This is kinda what got me back into vinyl and made me keep buying new and used records frequently. |
Be careful on choosing a VPI especially from the second hand market : https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/my-vpi-avenger-reference-problems-adventures.30077/#post-6293... http://vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13293 http://vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13376 http://vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13412 http://vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13391 |
No. I've been working on my LP collection since 1968. I have LP's from my parents, and even a box full of lacquer 78's. But I have an excuse, and even then a VPI is starting to push it. If you're in love with vinyl, in love with the "ritual", then I'd certainly recommend working your way up to it. But investing in the software first, not the front end. Which could take a year, which could take a few years. But it seems a waste for about 1100 minutes of music. If I were starting over I'd go with FLAC and DAC and not look back. Me? I grew up with LP's, staring at the covers, and used to live my life in 20 minute doses. I love the whole ritual thing, as time consuming and dumb as it is. YMMV. |
I would suggest you get set up to align your own cartridges (if you haven't already). Then try out a couple on your current table. Just remember they can be used on your next one. You can also set yourself up to clean your records. Small inexpensive "tweaks" may help you decide if you want to become more "invested" or keep what you have. You can build a nice digital front end to go with it. I am thinking about a Schiit Sol turntable for my collection of about 200. I bought most of them before "compact disks" became all the rage. I did buy a couple. I also inherited my wife's grandfather's collection. Mostly classical and big band. I am leaning towards a Soundsmith Otello cartridge to go with it. I have an old Panasonic turntable and I am currently using an Audio Technica. My review: It plays records. |
I say go for it! You could start off buying a lesser turntable than a VPI and something like a Schiit Mani phono pre. You could go with an MM or MI cart like a Nagaoka MP-110 or a Grado Black2, which are great carts for the $, IMO. Don’t even bother with an MC cart yet. If ya like it enough, you’ll stick with it. If ya don’t dig it, then just sell the deck, the phono preamp, and your records even as a package deal or something. There’s nothing wrong with having multiple mediums in your system either. I listen to vinyl 95% of the time, and CD’s sometimes. I haven’t even gotten into streaming yet, which I’ll get to eventually. I’ve personally been collecting vinyl for the past 30 yrs or so, and own thousands of records. Even with the pops n’ clicks, it just sounds best to my ears. I don’t even really notice the occasional pop or click anyway. As far as set up goes, setting up a turntable is an art, but once it’s done with your cart of choice, you really don’t need to worry too much about it, unless you start fiddling with it and are not knowledgeable about what you’re doing. Again, I say go for it. You’ll figure out pretty quickly if it’s for you or not, but don’t give up too early! lol Best of luck to you, no matter what you end up doing! |
Most of the advises here is like "buy whatever cartridge and turntable, they are all good" (even if it’s very low quality gear, weak belt drive motor, dirt cheap phonostages, unipivot tonearm or entry level cartridges). there was a similar thread before If you don't mind to be disappointed in vinyl (compared to your digital) and ended up selling your analog gear losing money on it then you can go for it. If you really want something special to beat your digital and to keep what you're buying for a long time for happy listening then you must be more specific in what you're buying. |
If you are truly serious on going the vinyl route then yes avoid the VPI, there are tons of very serious competitors at 2k or less especially if you are prepared to consider used. Just take a look at the listings right here on Audiogon today and say USAM and you will have quite a choice at 2k or less. Just a quick look has this at $1200( sure they would go down even) Well Tempered Labs has a lot of advocates here. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa06ic-well-tempered-labs-amadeus-mark-1-turntables Or this, no experience with the TT but the arm is a killer! https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9jjj3-ariston-audio-rd40-turntable-micro-seiki-ma-707-tonearm-o... |
Hi. As a teen, I loved listening to records. Then, CD's arrived and I stopped listening to vinyl. Late 90's I bought a new TT, phono stage and started collecting vinyl again. Mid 2000's, sold everything I had collected in the 90's (married with children). Fall of 2016 (As a result of some life changes) pulled my first TT out of storage along with the dozen or so records I had left. Was a very frustrating transition getting back into vinyl. Was very discouraged by the sound quality from my TT/cartridge, noise on records etc. There was a point where I was going to walk away from vinyl before I got too deeply committed. Then I made a choice and moved forward with vinyl. Bought a modest TT, and a moderately good cart (Clearaudio Concept/Ortofon Black) Digital is now a portable medium for me. I have two systems I listen to. One is for radio, which I have on all day, the other is for vinyl. I love the whole "thing" about vinyl. The "language" of the sound, the process of putting on a record, rooting through used bins and the way I listen to music when I play a record - the whole thing, and not just the hits... 3 years in and I'm not turning back. No real rhyme or reason to how I buy records (new vs used) and the collection is now over 600 Lps - never counted but going by linear feet of stacked records I figure its around that number. Its not just the sound, its change how I listen to music. Good luck! |
With exception of Soundsmith carts, the typical replacement stylus for an MM/MI cart is 80% the cost of the cartridge. @helomech just check Peter's interview and he said at 17:00 here SoundSmith cartridges will be rebuild ONLY for 20% of the cost (not 80% as you said). |
I have a project debut carbon with a grado cartridge. It sucks. Lots of background noise. Dull, lifeless, muddy sound. I am looking at this German table called Acoustic signature primus. Anyone heard of this table? I can get one used for 1200 bucks with a ortofon red. I figure I would throw on a 800 dollar cartridge and call it a day. |
Not really familiar with that Acoustic Signature model but if you can get for close to a grand is possibly a better bet than the VPI simply due to the arm. Considering it's a 2k table new and it's the entry level model for Acoustic Signature it may very well be a good buy at that price. Try it with the Red cart if you buy, you may well like it as is. |
I love my Scoutmaster and Prime even with there unipivot arms. They can be a little difficult to set up at first but get a lot easier after a couple cartridge changes. I haven’t had any problems so far, knock on wood, and the bearings show no sign of wear on either table. You do have to be careful with the male pivot because it is very sharp and could be bent if you dropped the arm wand down on it with to much force. I only have experience with the VPI since the last turntable I had was around 25yrs ago, a Mitsubishi Lt22 or something with a Stanton 681eee I think? There’s a lot of choices out there and I think going used is going to get you the most bang for your buck. I wouldn’t rule out VPI completely because I think there’s a lot of customers out there that have had a positive experience with them. In any case I definitely recommend investing more in the table than the dac which is just my opinion from doing it backwards and starting with the digital front end first. |
Huh, looks like this thread may not be fake? I got the vibe it is. Yeah, VPI turntables are everything negative the "experts" say in this thread and more. Terrible design all around. How many happy owners are there? And VPI has survived how long? Certainly not a perfect company, but most audio companies aren’t. If they are truly garbage, a long term user base would not exist. There isn’t an ideal table in any price point. There are choices in all price point, and the best of that bunch is subjective. Disclosure:I’m using an ancient Classic. A VPI in a proper setup supported by the rest of the system, is good as anything else in the wacky world of audio. You need to have 20 turntables lined up, side by side. Play your favorite record on all of them one after one then, you can determine what’s the best. And for heavens sake, don’t include a VPI,uni pivot design among them. SMH I personally, would get a used VPI, if I were in the market for another table.Lots of deals to be had. The unipivot design just takes getting used to. SMH |
From having owned, upgraded, modded and ultimately built my own tablehttps://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 my take on it is this. A turntable is really, really simple and easy to make. You take a board, stick a bearing in it, put a disk on the bearing, spin it somehow with a motor, and you got a turntable. There really is nothing more to it. Everything from there on is simply a matter of doing each one of those four things increasingly better little by little. The reason things are the way they are is due to a confluence of factors. The first one being its really, really easy to make any turntable better. Any. With most its as easy as adding a little mass or damping to the plinth or platter. Or if not that then adding a cone or shelf under it. Everyone knows this. Hardly anyone seems to understand the implications. All a manufacturer has to do is make the same damn thing only thicker and wala, it sounds better. Could literally put the same damn motor in a heavier pod with better feet and presto change-o a new model is born. The two most common materials are acrylic and aluminum. Next comes acrylic and aluminum laminated together. Next would be more and more layers of acrylic and aluminum laminated together. No I am not writing what I see on the VPI model page, that's just the way it works which I know having built the damn things myself! I'm sure its a total coincidence that all the VPI tables right up to their flagship model is more and more layers of acrylic and aluminum. What's that? Oh yeah. And color. Cool colors and shapes distract from the reality its just more and more of the same old same old. Second big factor, tablejockey nailed it, you get 20 lined up and compare. Yeah. And then go for a victory lap on your unicorn. Can we get a show of hands, how many have had even 2 tables lined up to compare? Tables. Hello? Not "tables" by which you mean different table, arm and cart. Tables. Two tables with the same arm and cartridge. Anybody? Beuller?? Right. So never happens. What happens instead is people have a VPI. And not to pick on VPI, could be Basis, Project, whatever. All the same far as I'm concerned. VPI happens to be the worst, but not worst in the sense of worst tables just worst in the sense of greatest offender in the lots of tiny little stairstep upgrade models. So you have your VPI and you find it impossible to truly compare side by side with anything. So you take the safe bet and upgrade to a better VPI. Lo and behold! Its better! Well of course it is! VPI is greedy and cynical, just not stupid. For damn sure every model is better than the cheaper one below it. Because that is the one thing their customers are gonna know, how the old one they had compared to the new one. So that's all they have to do to keep the customer satisfied. And understanding the first factor now maybe you can see how silly easy this is to do. This is why I always tell people, if you want to make your first table a package, fine. Go for it. Might be the smart move. I don't think so. But depends on the buyer, and below a certain threshold is the only option anyway. But everything from that point on should be focused on the individual components. If you buy a table, buy a table. Run your current arm on it, or buy a good arm. Or buy an arm and upgrade the one on your current table. Whatever you do though do not just upgrade to another model up the line. Get off that merry go round. |
Rega P8 is getting great reviews from users and the write ups. Unless you can go to a dealer and listen to setups, you will go round and round reading everyone’s opinion, bias, comments on others post etc. Research the brands, open your wallet as much as you can, and take the plunge. Don’t like what you’re hearing,get rid of it, hopefully without too much of a loss. |
"VPI sucks" is silly and false, and doesn’t come out of any of the comments that I can see except for maybe one post that is short on data and substance. if you want to get good advice from internet forums you need to grasp the underlying principles involved. for instance, the VPI Classic and Rega RP8 are very different beasts based on different design principles, each with their own pros and cons. there’s no simple "this one is better." is a Stratocaster "better" than a Les Paul? a Ferrari "better" than a Porsche? Depends on who you are and what you want. Judging from your responses I’m beginning to think you may, in fact, be better off ditching analog. if you do want to stick with a turntable an older used VPI might be a good choice - the original Aries has a very good reputation (can’t be made today at anywhere near its old price point) and there’s one on sale here on a’gon right now though probably above your budget. FWIW I have a modded Aries 1 and a modded Rega Planar II and there’s no comparison between them. The Rega is great for my ’second system’, the VPI is good enough that I don’t know how to replace it without spending megabucks. |
With exception of Soundsmith carts, the typical replacement stylus for an MM/MI cart is 80% the cost of the cartridge. I stated, "with exception of Soundsmith carts." Learn how to read. |
Everyone here has poisoned me on VPI. Guess they suck. Now I am looking at a new Acoustic Signature primus or a Rega RP8. Any thoughts on those tables?FWIW, my local dealer loves the old variations of the VPI Scout with unipivot arm. He's still a VPI dealer but readily admits the new models are not nearly as good as previous generations. He especially despises the 3D ("plastic" in his words) arms. He also sells TOTL SME tables. The main rig in his listening room is a 30/2 but he says he's still impressed with the value of the original Scouts. I'm sure he'd probably take one over a new Prime. Acoustic Signature makes nice tables. I have a Wow XL and it handily outclassed a VPI Classic 1 in my system. I'd wager anything AS makes will outperform a VPI of the same price. The RP8 is a smoking deal at $1999, in theory, but some users have reported warping of the foam plinths, same for the P6. If not for this concern, an RP8 should be a top contender. Another table you should consider is the Gem Dandy Polytable Super12. George Merrill is an excellent engineer and he made many smart choices when designing that table. |
I have kicked VPI to the curb unless someone on here gives me a compelling reason to grab this SCOUTMASTER with JMW VALHALLA UNIPIVOT ARM for 1500 bucks without a cartridge. The Acosutic signature primus at 2300 bucks comes with a bad cartridge but I can upgrade it in time. The REGA RP8 for 2 grand is a contender now but didnt know they used foam in the plinth. That may be a big issue. Once I get a setup I can just see myself immediately running to the record store and dropping 2 grand on new vinyl. Oh wait, that will only buy me 50 records. Lol |
Fairly certain my VPI dealer would tell you the Scoutmaster is one of the best tables they've ever made short of an Aries or HRX. Personally, I'd take a Scoutmaster over the AS Primus. Its AS equivalent would probably be closer to the Wow XL or Triple X. I do like the Rega sound though. I wouldn't be afraid to buy one from Music Direct because any quality issues are likely to come up within the first 60 days of ownership anyway. That's true of most gear IME. |
Project will do the trick instead of spending 3 grand. Project is very bad belt-drive turntable, it's really the lowest quality even compared to some other belt drives, but if you will upgrade the cartridge even this turntable will give you more. Why don't you just look for Direct Drive instead of Belt Drive ? Worried though about the future of record production with that record plant that was destroyed by fire in Cali. They made lacquers. You have many pressing plants in USA and there are many in Europe too. But more important: we have billions of vintage vinyl available in the stores for entire life. |
You have the same table I have. The Carbon Debut, wasn't happy with the setup. Tried cleaning the records with a cheap cleaner, under $100. Was tired of all the static and pops. Upgraded to a VPI classic 2 with a Ortofon Quintet Black $3800. Was not happy with the sound thru an old NAD stereo receiver. Upgraded to a Parasound Pre and Jolida Phono preamp. Have not changed a thing except for speakers, but that is a different subject. The reason I went with VPI is the classic is built like a tank, not much to go wrong with it. Wait for an online closeout or buy used. Enjoy your 25 albums and stream new music to find something you like, then buy it on Vinyl. Buy Mo-Fi albums and return the ones that sound bad. Invest in a new cleaning machine and your set, til you want to upgrade something. Enjoy, life is too short. |
Listen. Just buy the VPI. I bought a lesser model for more, and am happy. The unipivots have a learning curve, for sure, but the curve applies to any arm in the future, so good education there. No, wait....send me the info on this table so I can buy it. Seriously, upgrade your cartridge first. Transducers make the most difference in any system. I strongly recommend SoundSmith. I had crackling in my system. Thought I damaged my Zephyr MIMC. Peter Lederman called me on a Sunday! to discuss my problem! Turns out it was too much gain from my phono pre. All good. Understand that with a great cartridge, most ticks and pops ride under the music, not inside it. I still listen to digital, streaming my own ripped CDs and from Qobuz. I get restless after a few minutes. I put on an LP, and am content. |
Dear @jeffvegas : I'm a music lover and an audiophile and own 6K+ LPs. From some latest years digital alternative already outperforms the best and high prices analog alternative, no matters what analog ( LP. ) is no challenge for digital that every " day " is growing up with better digital technology when analog stop to develops up-grades because it's from years at its limits. Do it you a favor and invest those 4K in the best DAC you can find out and you will never turn your face back to analog. Analog is only for the ones that as me own thousands of LPs but certainly not for you. Enjoy the MUSIC with a better DAC. Period. Btw, if it's true that an unipivot tonearm can has lower bearing friction it's true that to carry the cartridge ride in the grooves modulations is the worst kind of tonearm bearing due to unstability. Cartridges needs dead stability in the tonearm bearing with low friction and all gimball type of tonearms due that job way better that any unipivot and does not matters the price of that unipivot. As I said do it your self a favor and invest in today and future MUSIC enjoyment through the digital alternative. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear jeffvegas, The decision to where to invest/spend your $$$ is a very personal one - its what's makes you happy - how do you define you destination or your journey. Digital music has matured to a music presentation all its own. There is little value in investing in a CD player - the best CD lasers like the swing-arm Phillips CDM4/Pro with German glass optics and 50,000-hr life are history. Better to burn CDs to FLAC or WAV and use a fanless laptop as a music player with free music player software such as MediaMonkey. The current future (and as digital it is always subject to change), of digital music is streaming with the current business model of subscription service - how many streaming services will survive is debatable since I believe that many are not yet profitable, but something will survive. But, consider that if a Hi-Rez music file can be transmitted from a remote physical storage facility (i.e. server center) through 100’s if not 1,000’s of miles of combined fiberoptic and copper cable, through connectors, repeaters, amplifiers; maybe a fiberoptic to copper converter at your home to a router all using 1,000’s if not 10,000’s of circuits, processing by 10,000’s if not 100,000’s of lines of computer operating/BIOS/firmware code, and emerge at your home server bit-perfect be it a lap top or dedicated server, the whole argument of home hardware evaporates, leaving nothing more than the DAC. With the Benchmark DCA-3 (as an example - $1700 for DAC only) essentially being engineering perfection (with I believe a 5-yr warranty) its is plug and play; one and done. You cannot argue the life-cycle cost of digital music streaming. Vinyl is anything but plug and play; one and done; it is not about convenience. It is journey with every step yield personal satisfaction and some frustration, all to get that uniquely analog music experience and presentation that no doubt there is the pride and the allegiance that one achieves from putting in the effort to get it right. There is a lot to learn and a lot to explore, and if you buy smart - there is a pretty clear upgrade path. If you buy the VPI Scoutmaster, first VPI still supports it, if you need a new arm pivot or a new motor they have it. There is an upgrade path to the heavier aluminum platter, different feet, the JMW-10.5 arm and base, the dual-pivot, and each one will improve incrementally the music which then drives you back to re-listening to all your vinyl albums, again and again. If you were to buy the Soundsmith Carmen MKII cartridge that is on-sale at Elusive Disk for $699 - this is an awesome cartridge for the money, easy to drive, quiet and they will rebuild it for $199. So, your cartridge life cycle cost is $199/1000-hrs. Now, if you add up what I just discussed - DAC (Benchmark - new) $1700, Turntable/arm (VPI used) - $1500, Cartridge (Soundsmith Carmen - new) - $699, total cost = $3900, add $100 for turntable incidentals = $4000, right on budget with a 5 year plan for possible turntable upgrades. Just one opinion, but I gave up on investing in digital and invested in vinyl for the very reasons just stated. Its your journey and its your experiment, make it your own. R/Neil |
Yes. Absolutely. Great sound and the joy of collection new and old albums. Nothing I like better than spending $8 on ebay or discogs for a near perfect 40 0r 50 year old LP. I started seven years ago with a Basis 2500 table and a Dynavector MC cartridge. It sounded so much richer than my Esoteric X-03se I have virtually not played digital at home since. You are approaching this the right way. |
From all this fodder and nonsense, if anything realize this.... opinions are biased so find your own bias. You can't be wrong with what's right for you, but can always be wrong when you preach what's right for everyone else. Avoid generalized statements like the narrow minded ones on unipivot arms, as there are always exceptions to the rules and or the opinions of others. Some prefer an SME arm others a Graham unipivot. Nobodies wrong if they like what they have. They become daft and wrong when they don't like what you have and constantly remind you ad nauseum why thier choice would be better for you. If a dealer knocked everyone else's product and praised only his own lines, would his word really be in arguably always correct, yet alone trusted as a fits all no exceptions end ....... Listen and go with your ears and your gut on sound and comfort of price and use....4U Enjoy....we're only here for one trip.... |
If you have 25 albums if it were me I wouldn't spend thousands on hardware not even knowing if I wanted to pursue it. Just common sense I think. Just get a decent phono stage if you don't have one, an entry level turntable made by a reputable manufacturer, spin clean washing system (I know its a manual set up but it really works). For phono stages I like the musical fidelity entry level preamps they have plenty of gain and you don't have to fiddle with them a lot. If you decide you like it then reinvest later once you know what you are getting into. |
