Virtually every 100k dollar table is BELT. Technics is not EVEN close to same league as VPI or REGA. Unless YOU ARE A DISC JOCKEY. But your missing the real savings in buying one of those mid fi Technics DD tables. You won't have anymore need for anything digital, all the money saved on Cd's, Dacs, Streamers, Transports,.....etc etc....Just buy more records cause they're all going to sound like a 1990 vintage cd player anyway on the Technics. And...you can come on here and be superior to anyone...even with a mid fi unit that fewer want and fewer own. Pretend it's rare and be firm in knowing everyone else is wrong and even when it's obvious your driving people off the forums...keep shouting down at their cheap choices...take charge of the school yard... 😒 |
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Technics was always my favorite at Radio Shack. But I never spotted Mark Levinson gear next to it. |
I just bought the REGA RP10. Demo unit at a dealer for 3 grand out the door. Next is the cartridge. Probably going to be something inexpensive to start like a Hana SL for 750 bucks. I am looking at phono preamps. Not going to go expensive either. Looking at a BEL CANTO PHONO STAGE used for 800 bucks. . At least it will match my BEL CANTO DAC. We will see how this turns out. I can always upgrade cartridge and phono later. |
I'm wary of Scoutmasters as they can force you to tie knots and wear sketchy military style uniforms...I prefer my Linn as it doesn't "ask" me to do anything but listen to it. |
The Rega RP10 I bought was a demo and had a ORTOFON ANNA CARTRIDGE and a 10k dollar Audio research phono stage hooked up to it at the store. It was also on a 10k dollar audio rack. I wont be getting the performance I heard but at least it's possible since I have a good table to build upon. Thoroughly satisfied. Next up is a digital overhaul. |
Dear @tomwh : First I can’t understand why instead to made a reference to me in an indirect way did not do it directly because as you I have a name too.
Now, """ have not built anything themselves so have no first hand knowledge of what is going on....""
way wrong: along a friend I designed/builded a first rate SS phonolinepreamp Essentiakl 3150 and 3160. ) that even today is a challenge even for the CH items and exist at least seven proudly owners to attest my statement.
In the other side I designed/builded too several tonearms and today I use a unique tonearm prototype that you can’t ever dream its quality performance levels and certainly is not unipivot for very good reasons/. In other time I let you know why not unipivots and I still owned at least two unipivots. No you have to learn by your self why no unipivots.
I always post first hand experiences nothing is just bla, bla,etc.
This has no sense when posted:
""" ask you what you wanted from vinyl. Notic .."""
yes you are " rigth " because maybe the OP wants to use the Vinyl as dinner table plates/dishes. " Agreee with you " ?????
But you as the OP showed through what you posted that your true knowledge levels are very low too:
""" The 3-5 grand cartridge statement is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard ..""
ridiculous? why? because you prefer the 103 or the cartridge mediocrity market niche?
Don’t tell me that you belongs too to that mediocrity/average audiophile. Could be that way, I really don’t care.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
more: """ If hip hop, rap, punk, or electronic stuff is your thing maybe digital would be the way to go. ""
who told you is not for the analog alternative? " crazy " statements for say the least.
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Dear @jeffvegas : """ Technics was always my favorite at Radio Shack. But I never spotted Mark Levinson gear next to it. """
from where or why do you posted that kind of no sense statement?
No sense because is coming for a not so smart/wise true analog/digital rookie.
Things are that I owned/own 3 Technics, 2 Denon and one JVC DD TTs 1 BD Micro Seiki and 2 BD Acoustic Signature and I own a pair of Levinson monobloks amplifiers.
Certainly not only a roockie but a " troller " too: very bad/terrible combination for your self because what you did or do it do not cares any one in this thread or every where. Got it?
R. |
jeffvegas, Congradulations on your purchase, and your support of your local dealer, and your decision to buy based on what you saw and heard, better known as a very informed decision. I will make one last recommendation for the Soundsmith Carmen MKII on sale for $699. This is a very easy cartridge to drive, your current preamp MM will drive it fine, no need to go buy a new phono preamp right away, and this cartridge is very forgiving, and has been well reviewed. The hype-elliptical sylus is not exotic like a shibata, but nor is it as critical of vertical tracking angle, and the latest best documented stylus life puts them both at about 750-1000 hrs, https://thevinylpress.com/the-finish-line-for-your-phonograph-stylus/. And, the Soundsmith cartridges are known to be quiet, they tend not to emphasize clicks and pops. Also, you can send the cartridge back to Soundsmith and they will rebuild it for $199, and when they rebuild, they also replace/upgrade the suspension, so you get back effectively a like-new cartridge. For moving coils, the best you can get without paying about 80% of the original cost is a re-tip with a partial cantilever replacement, but the suspension is not replaced. However, if your dealer is selling the Hana and they will install, then that needs to be serious consideration as a 1st cartridge. |
They can get soundsmith too. My current preamp a Parasound Halo P7 has a switch for moving coil but that doesnt mean I might not try a very good MM. I am in a small condo with Martin logan Esl9 and 2 REL S5/10 SUBS. I moving a lot of air in a small place which is one of the reasons I chose the stability of a gimbaled arm over the VPI Unipivot. I may also consider the soundsmith MM because of its superior stability compared to a MC. The Hana is good but a REAL MC cartridge starts around 2 thousand bucks.
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@jeffvegas, Congratulations. I'm sure it is a good table. I don't know about the BelCanto phono preamp cause I've not heard it. But I've never heard anyone speak of it either. Whatever the case, a good phono stage is a necessity in order to get the best from your TT. I'd rather spend the $$$ on a phono pre than the cartridge. Fact is that everything counts. Its only as good as the weakest link. But I suspect a lesser cartridge will give you more with a good preamp, verses high $$ cartridge on a lesser preamp.
From some of your posts, I sense some frustration on your part. Don't let that interfere with putting together a good vinyl playback system. There's a lot of good information on this board. Sorry if my earlier post indicated different. You just have to learn to get to the info which is applicable to you. Anyway, enjoy the new TT
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Direct drives are junk. You never connect a motor to the deck and platter. Vibration. Direct drive is for low end record players. Virtually every 100k dollar table is BELT. Technics is not EVEN close to same league as VPI or REGA. Unless YOU ARE A DISC JOCKEY. This is a proof how low is your knowledge about turntables, you have to learn something first. I’m afraid you’re living in parallel reality, brainwashed by audiophile press and "experts" in belt drives. Do you know anything about records and how they are made ? If you don’t know that Direct Drive is there from the start in process of vinyl production/manufacturing you’d better go back and learn from the start. Every single lacquer for disc masters cut on DIRECT DRIVE, one of the most popular worldwide is Neumann Lathe. Of course you don’t know that Technics Direct Drive Motor SP-02 is what actually rotate Neumann Platter while a cutting stylus cut the groove on lacquer disc which is a source for disc master used for every vinyl release you ever heard/owned. Reference Direct Cut LPs recorded on Direct Drive Lathe too, ever heard about it ? Those records are the finest quality, because there is no tape (or digital) between the musicians and vinyl master. Signal from the microphones goes to the mixing console and then direct to the cutter heard located over Direct Drive Lathe! If Direct Drive motor could harm a signal coming from a cutter head, or could add any noise or whatever ... then no one in the industry would have to use Direct Drive Motors. But there are NO cutting lathe with belt drive because this is inferior , cheap motor that can’t rotate on constant speed and only degrades in time, it is full or errors, very low torque motor. And if you think that all those ugly belt drives cost so much because they are superior you’re so wrong, i’m sorry for you. If you want to speak with the numbers looks for the prices for reference Direct Drive like Denon DP-100 for example. Don’t die of heart attack when you will see a price tag for this Direct Drive turntable. There are many other DD turntables that cost a lot more than you can even expect. Why did you post here ? Just to get approval from some users about your cheap low quality belt drive turntable ? Does it make sense for you ? Many people tried to help you, but you just can’t hear anything. Now you will do the same about cartridges. |
Dear @antinn @artemus_5 : I understand your " congratulations" posts.
Now and I'm not talking of the TT it self but the tonearm and I know very well the philosophy of R.Gandy: knowing that and knowing that no single cartridge in the world ( and does not matters its price. ) comes with a perfect fit of the sylus tip to the cantilever and almost each cartridge comes with different rake angle.
Then, SRA/VTA and Azymuth tonearm mechanisms are a must to have no matters what if we want that each carrtridge can shows it at its best and the Rega tonearms has not SRA/VTA and Azymuth facilities.
So both of you already own tonearms with out those facilities? No? then why " congratulations " when Rega tonearms has a wide disadvantage for a precise cartridge set-up and we have to remember that it's the cartridge the one that pick-up the information on those recorded grooves and as better the tonearm/cartridge set-up as more recorded information we can get to enjoy it.
R. |
Again Chakster its obvious you do your high end audio purchases at Best Buy. A sincere good luck to you and a possible re-evaluation of your psych medication. |
You is a funny guy.......
But not in the sense you may think.
🤔🤔🤔 |
@rauliruegas,
I will congradulate anyone who is passionate (or crazy 😎 ) enough to take on the challenge of vinyl which has so much "skin in game", and I respect that. Sometime its more than the music, sometimes its also the experience, and today with so many options it really is Faithful to the Music Your Way. Different strokes for different folks.
Otherwise, the Rega has received near universal praise, and while the tonearm does not have the full compliment of adjustments, Jeff has the support of a local Dealer which can assist him, and of course today that is rare. Otherwise, my TNT has two VPI tonearms the 10.5 and 12-3D, one with Soundsmith Carmen, the other a Soundsmith Paua. But I am an engineer and experienced and have no problem setting each to my perfection, which is Faithful to the Music My Way.
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It was a tough call. With the VPI you can do SO many upgrades to the table. You do have full adjustment of the arm. Plus it's a substantial table. Big and heavy. It looks and sounds expensive. The REGA RP10 is everything opposite the VPI. It's small and light. When in its skeleton plinth looks like a 500 dollar turntable. All you know that it's high end is the diamond machined ceramic platter. The ultra precision bearings are out of sight. I like it. It's very sleek, modern and very very quiet. I was offered a VPI HRX for 5 grand . It was tempting. But my digital is in need of a severe upgrade. AURELIC VEGA G2 DAC is next months purchase. |
I am thoroughly addicted to buying records. Cleaned out almost all the mobil fidelity vinyl at a local record store. Over 4 grand in vinyl purchased. |
I may also consider the soundsmith MM because of its superior stability compared to a MC. The Hana is good but a REAL MC cartridge starts around 2 thousand bucks. Weird. I switched from a Soundsmith Carmen to a Hana SL and the improvement was incredible. The Carmen isn’t even in the same league, let alone the same ballpark. The linked thread details the experience of a guy who "downgraded" to the Hana SL from a Koetsu Rosewood: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/so-glad-i-took-a-chance-on-a-hana-cartridge.751483/#post-18685655 I also posted in that thread regarding some trouble I was having with the bass of my SL, but disregard all of that, it turned out to be a problem further up the chain. My local dealer used to listen to a Koetsu Rhodonite on a regular basis. He's considered one of the most talented analog gurus in the industry and sets up 5-figure analog systems regularly. He will tell you Hana carts are hands down the best value out there. |
Hana doesnt last. Reports are out that they burn out after 400 hrs. I want something that will do a 1000 hrs. |
Hana doesnt last. Reports are out that they burn out after 400 hrs. I want something that will do a 1000 hrs.
Very strange. You have all these ready made ideas and notions which makes me wonder why you bother to come here and continually scoff at some of the very good advice you are being given? |
Because is an " expert " rookie that does not needs advises. With that attitude he just can't learn and that's why he runned to buy 4K of LPs.
R. |
@rauliruegas, @uberwaltz,
Gents, please give Jeff a break, this is his post, he asked for advise, you gave it. But, when people do not listen to you, please do not be offended, because the OP may respond defensively and down rabbit hole the post goes. If you read his prior posts, he listens, but makes his own decisions - good for him, its his ears, its his life, its his money.
The two of you by your statistics are pretty amazing, joined 2012/2013 and since have accummulated almost 20,000 posts; impressive but this a community forum, and you are only a voice in a chorus. If you were professional reviewers that had published detailed reviews there may more documented evidence to your position, but even then, its all transient until to next 'great' product.
The Hana SL is the current $750 darling, but it is MC and will be more sensitive to pre-amp, does not have a threaded headshell and with a shibata stylus can be very sensitive to setup, so it may not be the best 1st cartridge for someone who may not have a lot of experience or the supporting equipment to get the best performance from it. The $750 Ortofon 2M Black MM is always a safe recommendation, but the replacement stylus is $550. So, my recommendation is trying to consider the whole picture, and if the OP does not agree with my recommendation, thats OK, that is their God given right, and I am not granted the right to judge their decisions.
Otherwise, the next $729 darling is likely to be the Audio Technica AT-OC9XSL. If you read the specs, its unbelievable for the price, threaded headshell, micro fine stylus, boron cantilever, best possible copper wire, neodymium magnets, and on and on, but it has not yet been professionally reviewed. But given the specs, and the company behind it, it has all the 'potential' to be the next 'giant-killer'.
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Antinn
Sorry but not really about giving him a break.
It was mostly the OPs attitude and silly childish posts that drove my replies.
Not his newness or lack of knowledge.
If you are comfortable with his posts and outbursts that’s great.
I am not. |
Dear @antinn : """
But, when people do not listen to you, please do not be offended,... ""
I did not and I'm not offended in any way. My opinion as your one is just that an opinion in that " chorus ".
Now, he will be learn in the hard way: falling and wake up and again and again and is a good way to learn.
He already made his first mistake with that tonearm and does not matters that the retailer can support him to the set up because that tonearm just is not designed for a precise cartridge set up.
Anyway, your point is your point and a good opinion and I respect it.
R. |
I have forgotten more than all of you will ever know about high end audio. I started in the late 80's as a high end audio salesman for 2 different stores representing the names of VANDERSTEEN, KRELL, CONRAD JOHNSON, APPOGEE, AUDIO RESEARCH, MCINTOSH, B&W, SUMO, JEFF ROWLAND, MARK LEVINSON, VPI, REGA, LINN, ATMOSPHERE, ELECTRON KINETICS, CELESTION, DUNLAVY, QUICKSILVER, PSE, NAD, THORENS, BAT, ETC. Enough said. |
I have forgotten more than all of you will ever know about high end audio.
Nuff said...... 🙄🙄 |
Hana doesnt last. Reports are out that they burn out after 400 hrs. I want something that will do a 1000 hrs. Not sure where you’re getting your info. I haven’t come across any such accounts despite my frequent participance on multiple forums. Occasionally an MC cart needs to be demagnetized, which is a simple, zero-cost procedure that a caveman can perform. As for stylus longevity, those who I consider the foremost experts seem to agree that 500 hours is the limit for about any advanced diamond cut before it begins to cause record wear. For conical and standard ellipticals, that number is even lower, closer to 250 hours. You could take the word of a manufacturer who has a vested interest in selling you his cartridges, and thus very likely to make exaggerations, or seek out some real independent research. The linked blog post is worth a read for any analog enthusiast: https://thevinylpress.com/the-finish-line-for-your-phonograph-stylus/ All I can tell you is that I’ve owned both carts and the Hana SL is superior by a wide margin. The only feature liked of the Carmen was its threaded body. The Hana ML does have a threaded body and would be my choice if budget allows. That or maybe the well-regarded AT ART-9. |
Not sure where you’re getting your info. I haven’t come across any such accounts despite my frequent participance on multiple forums.
I have forgotten more than all of you will ever know about high end audio.
There's your answer....... |
Dear @jeffvegas : Good for you, unfortunately you forgottenall those information.
R. |
I have forgotten more than all of you will ever know about high end audio. Is that you Donny? |
I have forgotten more than I can remember to make that claim. |
@rauliruegas Yes, I did congratulate him. He made his decision and laid down his $$$. It wasn't the choice I would have made. So what? I didn't get all butt hurt over it. You shouldn't either. As for the arm lacking VTA adjustment, I told him that too and recommended Pete Riggle VTAF for just that purpose. If you look back you will find the post. |
Artemus.
I am pretty sure nobody is getting butt hurt over the OPs choice of table, certainly not myself.
In fact I congratulate him for making a decision and taking the plunge.
No, my concerns were with his blatantly childish and somewhat arragont posts, that were very unbecoming and not really called for.
There are members saying Raul and myself should back off and take it easy.
Thats fine by me but if you care to look back through the order of posts you will see clearly where and who posted arrogance and nonsense first.
No that does not mean anyone should retaliate with like for like but that’s human nature and contrary to popular belief I am merely human! |
No harm no foul goners. I have greatly appreciated all your input into this endeavor. All your opinions are sound ones backed up by fact not fiction. This is not an inexpensive hobby and your inputs have helped me tremendously. High end Audio is and always will be full of opinions. There are hundreds of loudspeaker companies doing business and hundreds of electronics companies doing business because we all like our music presented to us in different ways. Now, as I drop the needle on Steely Dan Aja I bid you farewell. |
Enjoy your new addiction sir!
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@ubrerwaltz,
And with your statement of the truth, may we are we surrender to you the final words. 🤗
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cackster-I fully agree with you. DD is a standard in disc cutting and DD can be equal to BD.
As to the $5000 HRX, if it is sold with the upgraded platter and an SDS unit, yes, it's still a great TT. If it includes a decent arm such as my SME IV, it's a steal. Just get a good isolation platform like my Townsend Seismic Sink to obtain maximum sound quality (my VPI TNT VI is very similar to an HRX). |
@uberwaltzI think you need to see the context as to why Jeff posted what he did. Maybe he got tired of the dogmatic opinions of those who make like they have all the knowledge on this board. I know I get tired of it. There are good belt drives & good Direct drives. I do not believe in the impossibilities....but the improbable. Most of the time it comes down to $$$.
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^^^^^ Most of the time it comes down to $$$. I disagree - Most of the time it comes down to setup. Jeffvegas - did you ever get that big Krell into your apt. ? Should I buy a VPI SCOUTMASTER. I OWN 25 RECORDS. the Op title taken at face value. the reality is IMO that if an Audiophile is listening to his gear - Turntable, and everything downstream, the stand, the furniture, the room. He... she.... then only needs maybe 6 records. Its a vibration resonance hobby....everything matters with vinyl. |
I started in the late 80’s as a high end audio salesman for 2 different stores representing the names of VANDERSTEEN, KRELL, CONRAD JOHNSON, APPOGEE, AUDIO RESEARCH, MCINTOSH, B&W, SUMO, JEFF ROWLAND, MARK LEVINSON, VPI, REGA, LINN, ATMOSPHERE, ELECTRON KINETICS, CELESTION, DUNLAVY, QUICKSILVER, PSE, NAD, THORENS, BAT, ETC. Enough said. For a salesman started in the 80’s it’s ridiculous to read what you posted about Japanese Direct Drive turntables, i think you never tried any of them in your life (or at least any serious DDs). Unlike you, the owners of the brands you’ve been selling were inspired by Japanese cartridge designers, the best carts from Krell, M.Levinson, J.Rowland are all made in Japan by Japanese cartridge designers like Takeda-San and Ikeda-San. Japan is the land of Direct Drive high-end turntables as much as the best cartridges. So maybe it’s a cultural difference... I tried a dozen of Direct Drive TTs from relatively cheap to very expensive, but the difference between me and you is that i tried them all in the past 5 years and i don’t have to remember anything that happened 40 years ago like you. Right now in my system i have Victor TT-101 (pair), Luxman PD-444 (pair), Denon DP-80, also some cheaper models from Technics and Micro Seiki that is not necessary to mention. You will hardly find anything better than those 3 models from those 3 brands even if your budged (just for the drive without tonearm and plinth) will be over $10k or even more. Unfortunately only Technics (Matsushita) still in business for audiophiles with their new Direct Drive like SP-10R which is probably surpass anything new under $20k, because the price policy for many high-end brands including those belt drives is simply insane! While the prices from Matsushita is more than real, they are affordable! In fact i don’t care what you will buy, but i want our readers (who never post here) to be aware of it. Vintage Direct Drive turntables from Technics, Denon, Luxman, Victor ... are great, they are flawless, solid, made in Japan and will serve their owners longer than many new crappy units that modern industry can offer for higher prices. Technics and JVC Victor made DD motors of the highest possible quality, for this reason those motors were inside the wolrd class Disc Lathe machines in the best disc cutting studios. Japanese giants of vinyl industry also made cutting heads for Disc Lathe machines. It’s hard to imagine the industry without them. But i can imagine industry without belt drive turntables, those companies did nothing except for cheap turntables for consumers. |
Dear @artemus_5 : "
There are good belt drives & good Direct drives...""
of course and I agree with you but the critical subject as @ct0517 pointed out is the overall set-up and that's why I don't like Rega tonearms that does not permit a rigth/precise cartridge set up that must be our main analog concern.
R. |
But i can imagine industry without belt drive turntables, those companies did nothing except for cheap turntables for consumers That's about the stupidest as of yet statement you've made. Besides the fact you couldn't name a producer of Japanese tables who also didn't produce belted tables as well, the names of tables who went only belt would shame your rubber hearted technics. Please, we all can read the same drivel you regurgitate regularly here...so stick to that and don't go outside your true narrow vision and knowledge. 5 years of using old units with tired electronics hardly makes an expert. Its insulting to those that actually have and do fix, repair and rebuild tables since the 70's. There is no best, there are choices , all with differing strengths and weaknesses and more importantly different tone and tempos and extremes. All drives can and do offer good to excellent results. The real question is when your not driving people from these forums with your drivel....how many of your real peers with the bear driving can you get in your car...... |
Love the old stuff!!! My Krell 400cx, Mark Levinson 23.5 and Jeff Rowland Model 1 all sound wonderful!!! All are serviced and might be as good as any solid state gear made today. |
@rauliraugas
Again, This is the reason I suggested that he would need the Pet Riggle VTAF so as to have that adjustment. |
@chakster I agree with all you wrote concerning DD tables except for the last statement. Note that VPI makes belt, rim and DD driven tables, all with noteworthy, high quality sound potential. It's not a matter of quality, only the end result that a buyer should consider. |
Bought the VPI as well and going back and forth the old VPI Scoutmaster SMOKES the REGA RP10. Going to see if I can exchange the Rega for a DAC. The VPI is WAY more quiet. NOW there is bass in the music. The arm sucks though. Very wobbly and unstable but the overall sound is amazing. REGA is overrated. |
I also heard the VPI DIRECT DRIVE. WHOOOAH!!! OK your are right direct drives CAN sound good. Take about dynamics!!! Better than HRX belt drive!!! |
Since I already own a ton of records I bought new over the last 60 years, I do have excellent, but old turntables and cartridges, however, I definitely would not have kept everything except for the expense and inconvienence.
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