Shipping. Hard Lesson.

We did an "out of state" move in June.  When the movers were about to grab my power amp (110#), speakers (122# each), and subwoofers (133# each) I warned them, so they wouldn't hurt themselves, and I was amazed at how easy it was to handle these items, all in their factory cartons.

Fortunately, I was able to join the movers at both ends of the move, to "supervise" the loading and unloading.

UPS trashed a pair of new $5000 pair of Revel F208 speakers I had ordered.The boxes they came in looks like a fork lift had pierced the box, and the top of one was totally crushed in, including speaker top.
The UPS guy was dragging and dropping the speakers out of the truck, and when I mentioned to him that each of those boxes was worth $2500 he just shrugged.  He totally freaked out when I started videoing the whole fiasco and tried hiding his face.
When UPS came back to pick up the damaged speakers, they asked who delivered them. Apparently this guy is known to them as someone who shouldn't be working for the company.Concerning boxing of the speakers, I have never seen an expensive piece of equipment so poorly packaged.  The cardboard was very thin, which led to much of the damage.  Ended  up ordering another pair through a different vendor and insisted they ship Fed X.Bottom line, double box and avoid UPS!

I was reading this thread when FedEx pulled up with my new cd transport. I was shocked to see it was not double boxed. Just slapped a label on the factory box and sent it out. The first thing I noticed was one of the bottom flaps had come completely unsealed. Fortunately the unit itself was not damaged. The rest of the box looked like it had been run over. This was from a supposedly reputable dealer. I sent them a message and they apologized but said they send merchandise out the way it came in. If I had known this beforehand I would not have purchased from this dealer. 

I was a courier for 20 years and have seen things that most people would not believe as far as how items are packed for shipping and how they are handled. I treated  my packages  as if they were my own. But there are a lot of handlers out there who just don't care. And to be fair there are a lot of shippers who do a very poor job of packing. It doesn't matter who you use, its the people they hire and how they treat the package. 

Two things. First acquire your own fedex membership. You can do so for free and ship under your own account. I’ve shipped hundreds of high dollar audio gear, amps and preamps, without a single issue. Having your own fedex account and you save at least 60-70 percent over shipping over the counter at Ups. Wow, that’s a lot. 
I’ve shipped over 100 delicate jazz arch tops throughout the world via FedEx. Again nary an issue. But if you want to be compensated by Ups for trashing your gear and are willing to pay the extra dough via these Ups outlets, and that amount can be very very substantial, then ship Ups. 

Never use UPS.  I was desperate to replace an amp that I totally destroyed from idiocy.  It is no longer made.  The seller used UPS.  It did not work when it arrived.  This seller had great feedback, and he offered a good discount,  so I gambled, especially since i had one working and one dead amp of the same model.  The problem took a long tome to find, but the old amp provided a new circuit board, with all the parts attached, for me.  The other one had cracked.  I could go on forever.  NEVER USE UPS! 

The buyer let me know that UPS came and picked up the amp and took it to a "central location." I was hoping that they would leave it with the buyer since this has been so much trouble for him.

But what really has me angry is that UPS has my amp and has not paid me for it. THAT is just nuts! I understand that if they pay me for it it is theirs to keep. But they have it and I don't have my money. I've got too much going on this weekend to deal with it but on Monday if I don't have the money I'm going to raise hell (for whatever that might be worth). But, if I get the run around I will have a lawyer involved immediately. (And for whatever it might be worth I am not litigious person. I have used a lawyer a grand total of once in my life decades ago for a clear cut issue that was resolved as soon as the attorney sent a letter.)

UPS sucks. I had a very high end Motorcycle Helmet double boxed in factory packaging and UPS cracked the fiberglass /carbon fiber/ composite shell. They tried to weasel out of paying the insurance. I had to take damaged helmet to regional office and confront a service manager to get my money. UPS sucks.

The big shipping company business is so bad you have to actually buy insurance just in case they don't do their job properly. 

Update: My wife went up to the UPS store where it was packaged and shipped initially to find out what is going on. They now have the amp. My wife saw it there in the box but she said the box was not recognizable as a box. The clerk there said they'd have a decision about the insurance claim by the end of the week. My wife told them we expect them to pay us no later than Thursday, full amount including shipping. Not sure that makes any difference.

Also not sure if they will allow us to have it back since they will be paying us the amount paid for it. If I knew it worked I might buy it back from them but I have no way of knowing and wouldn't gamble without knowing.

I've been pretty disappointed in UPS's attitude in all this. As soon as we made the claim they started treating us like the bad guys who have to prove we're not trying to scam them. Totally unacceptable in my opinion. A sad commentary on the state of society as well. Not shocked by any means. Its just sad.

Same goes for my FedEx recent delivery  Claim was for $200 for a remote control that was damaged.  They paid me $100 saying that was its worth, well yes but the shipping and tax from overseas put it at $200.  So I cannot replace the remote for $100.  It took a month or more to get paid.

The actual value of this amp is a lot more than what the seller paid and what we insured it for, so if UPS tries to play that game I will have to fight back. I hope this does not require an attorney. I hate the thought of that but if it comes down to it I will get one. I'll probably lose money in the process but at some point in time principle has to count for something.

Dealing with a similar issue right now and perhaps my story may help others in the future.

Purchased a Celeste HT-5 from a new member a couple of weeks ago.  Questioned him as to his ability to package such a heavy item properly and was assured it would be professionally packaged by UPS.  His professional packaging consisted of the amplifier being wrapped in a single layer of bubble wrap, placed in an oversized, single walled cardboard box surrounded by light weight plastic airbags.  As you can imagine, the 69Lb amplifier was absolutely trashed upon arrival and the little plastic airbags were all deflated.

Tried to work with the seller to come to a mutual compromise but got the run-around until such time as I received a phone call from the seller's father indicating that his son was in college, didn't have time to deal with the issue, it was my problem and that absolutely no refund would ever be issued.  His exact words were... "I have your money and you will never get it back!"  :)

Opened a dispute with A'gon and they were fantastic.  Unfortunately the seller refused to comply with A'gon's ruling for a return/refund.

Now working with PayPal however I worry that PayPal may not abide by A'gon's policy with regards to damaged shipments.

One mistake I made, which may help others in the future is this...
I used my FedEx account to pay for shipping.  As a FedEx account holder, I am entitled to a reduced rate for International shipments.  I utilized my account to send the seller both the shipping labels and customs paperwork.  Even though I had the shipment properly insured, because the amplifier was not packaged according to either Audiogon or FedEx guidelines, FedEx will most likely not be paying out the claim.  I can't fault FedEx in this case as I agree that they can not be held responsible for negligent packaging.

The seller is using the fact that I had insurance with FedEx as his defence for not issuing a return/refund.  Had I just let the seller ship the item on his own dime, he most likely would have still reneged on his responsibility for a return/refund, but would not have the luxury of accusing me of trying to collect on both ends.

I had filed a claim with FedEx, at the insistence of the seller, prior to the phone call from the father and assured him that should any restitution be paid out by FedEx, I would forward it to him immediately.  As I am now honouring the fathers request not to communicate with his son, I have been forwarding all communication with FedEx, to the A'gon case worker.

Lesson here could be to always let the seller be responsible for all aspects of shipping.  Try to save a dollar and spend two :)

Update: UPS is giving us the run around. They filed the claim on Aug 14. They have the damaged amp back in the local UPS store. They said we'd have a decision and a check within 10 days. We checked back several times after the 10 day mark and were told that they were waiting for the higher-ups to make a decision. Today (17 days after the claim was filed) they are saying the same thing and will not give us contact information for anyone above the local store.

I have not called an attorney yet and don't want to do so. In the end it will probably cost me money to do it. But something clearly needs to be done.

Does anyone know if this sort of thing can be handled in small claims court?

n80

Update: UPS is giving us the run around. They filed the claim on Aug 14. They have the damaged amp back in the local UPS store. They said we’d have a decision and a check within 10 days. We checked back several times after the 10 day mark and were told that they were waiting for the higher-ups to make a decision. Today (17 days after the claim was filed) they are saying the same thing ... Does anyone know if this sort of thing can be handled in small claims court?

Yes, it most certainly can. Small claims courts (they go by other names in some states) usually have a limit for damages - it’s $3,000 where I live. With proper documentation and preparation, I have found small claims court to be an excellent avenue for resolution; I’ve successfully relied on it several times over the years.

Read your contract you might have agreed to arbitration. 

I have heard that that might be true. Right now I’m not sure how long I have to wait to do even that. 
As a reminder, this was not my amp. I am selling this gear for my wife’s aunt, a widow whose only child passed away. It was his gear.  This money is for her. So l’m not out anything no matter how this plays out. 
Right now it has become a matter of principle to me. The whole thing is UPS’s fault and in my opinion they are behaving shamefully. 

djones51

Read your contract you might have agreed to arbitration.

Good point. Please note that in many states, mandatory arbitration doesn't apply if you're willing to pursue resolution through small claims court.

I understand the frustration my wife is an attorney and I can’t remember the number of times she’s told me to be patient or it’s gonna take longer and cost more. Sometimes you just want to say to hell with it and do it anyway.

My wife (not an attorney) is saying the same thing. I get caught up in the principle of things and sometimes end up tilting windmills. Sometimes I think if more people were willing to fight this sort of thing that the offending parties would be more responsive.

Good thing dueling is outlawed.

10 paces with banjos. 

My wife went back up there. The local manager said that she did not know why it was taking so long and called the higher up again. Couldn't get her on the phone (which is what happened every other time as well). This time she persisted and finally got someone who said the claim was approved they were just waiting on the fax from the local manager. The manager told her it had been faxed to them last week and she had confirmation. The higher up apparently said, "Oh, that fax machine. We never check that one." They assured the local manager that the check would be in the mail by tomorrow morning and they would call to confirm.

So it sounds like clerical errors were the hold up and nothing more. At least that's the positive spin I'm putting on it now. However, if we had not continued to pester them about it who knows when they'd have found the mistake.

It looks like dueling banjos and litigiousness are on hold for now.

Yep.

What's a... fax machine?

Good point!

n80, I'm sorry that you've gone through this huge hassle. I sure wish we could find out how the Bryston amp made out during the ordeal. They don't exactly make fragile equipment. (Do you guys remember those old Volvo commercials?) I'd be very curious to know if the amp is working--in fact, I hope you get a check for your wife's aunt *and* an amp for you!

UPS will keep the amp I am afraid ONCE they have paid you out and not even offer you an option to "buy it back" if you wished too.
Went through same ordeal years ago with a pair of $3500 B&W speakers shipped from Florida to Colorado.
In factory boxes and also boxed again in golf club boxes that both UPS and Fedex sell with plenty of foam in between the boxes. Covered in fragile and this way up labels.
Sounds good right?

Oh heck no!

UPS managed to totally rip the top of one speaker box off and destroyed the top tweeter and wood of one speaker. I could not believe the pictures the buyer sent me.

Fortunately insured but it took a few weeks of harassing UPS near daily to finally get them to pay.

During this time they had visited the home where they were shipped too and then taken them with them.
I had given buyer a full refund instantly and eventually got my money back from UPS.
The speakers were never seen again......

This morning came and went. No call about the check. Can't say I'm surprised. Once again feel like I'm getting the run around.

@northman (the "@" function never works on this site), I don't know what UPS's policy is on what happens to the damaged item. If they pay the claim then they rightfully own it.......but I can't imagine what they'd do with it. I had hoped they would leave it with the buyer so that if it worked he at least got something for his troubles.

When the claim is settled I will ask for it. I have not examined it. From the pictures the side handles on the rear are bent in but it looked like all the binding posts were intact. I think a corner of the face plate was bent in or cracked. I suspect it might still work. If so I could probably use it especially since learning that a 5 channel amp like this can be used to bi-amp. Even if I couldn't use it I might be able to sell it for a few hundred to give to my wife's aunt.

Still no call or check. Wife went back up to local UPS store. They called the higher ups again. They have all the information and will have a check out within 5 days. Mind you, we were told we would have a check by last Friday. My wife who is forever patient, optimistic and desires to think the best of people is starting to get upset.


So not only is UPS incompetent for this type of shipping, they are also irresponsible and incompetent when it comes to correcting their mistakes.


Will never use them again for anything. Not that they care. But as a consumer all I can do is vote with my feet.

n80, any update? Any good news?

As much as they charge for insurance they shouldn't balk at paying up. 

I package things myself and for items like you described I would always triple box and buttress the corners heavily

@northman, no good news. No news at all in fact. My wife is the one that has been having to deal with this and it is her relative that gets the money for these components I've been selling for the estate.

Well, I was getting upset with her for not pushing UPS. It has been nearly a month from now.

She was getting fed up with me. She told me to let her handle it so I've washed my hands of it. As far as I know still no money.

It makes me mad. What UPS has done is wrong. How they have responded to it is shameful. But it is out of my hands now and I'm just trying not to think about it. And I'm less stressed out when I don't.

I will also say that getting rid of this hi-fi gear has been a miserable experience. We've sold most of it. We got less than half the new value on everything but the Aerial Acoustic 5T speakers where we got right at half their new value. For most everything else we got less than a third of the new value. All of this gear was like new, most of it current models. On top of that eBay/PayPal holds onto the payments for like a week because we have not had many sales. So between UPS and eBay I've sold about $7500 worth of gear and have gotten only about $2000 so far and all of that was on Craig's List or Audiogon sales. We've had to fend of scammers and lowballers. We had to come home from out of town to meet a buyer so he could pick up the speakers (really nice guy).

The only experiences that were halfway decent were through Craig's List oddly enough.

Anyway, we're almost done and I hope I never have to do it again. No fun.

For our efforts I kept a pair of Aerial Acoustic 6Ts. They are wonderful but I really don't need them.

Sorry to unload my first world problems. Just needed to vent.

No need to apologize at all; I asked! I'm sorry that you've had such a time with all this. Despite all the criticism of UPS out here, I'm still surprised that they are proving so hard to work with. That's unacceptable. You are absolutely right to let it go, with thanks to your wife; it's not worth all the outrage. 

I know this doesn't apply to your situation at all but I've struggled with the economics of "letting it go." Part of me feels that this is a hobby and if I can't afford to lose a piece of equipment (including to cat pee!) then I shouldn't have bought it in the first place. The other part of me wants to reach as far as I can into my bank account/credit card, risk be damned. 

In any case, I'm sorry for your experience, which sounds like no fun, all around.

Update: My wife went back to UPS Store. Still no check. They call the central office while she is there, they say the claim has been approved and that we'll get the check soon. They say 5-10 days is typical. It has been nearly a month. Anyway, its in my wife's hands and she seems infinitely patient.

However, they gave her the amp.

I got it in the original shipping box. It was a regular box. Imagine a basic moving box. Very flimsy. The unit had been wrapped once with the large bubble wrap stuff. The ones with the big individual air bags. All of them were flat. Buggers the imagination.

On the amp both of the handles on the rear were bent inward. This amp is a tank and I had to use large pliers to straighten the handles. One of the plastic speaker terminal covers is cracked. There are dents/scuffs on all four corners of the face plate.

Otherwise it looks fine. And guess what? It works. All five channels.

At this point I'm not sure what to do with it. I've decided that I do not want it. It just does not fit well in the room and is overkill for my purposes.

Not sure how something like this would sell but I might stick it on Craig's List and see what I can get for it as-is. Even $500 would be something.

I'm sorry about the check but that's great news about the amp! I've owned Bryston amps and I'm not surprised. They're built like tanks, as you say. No reason for it to go into a landfill; it probably has twenty years left on it.

Good luck to your wife dealing with UPS. 

Still no pay out on the amp. My wife goes by the UPS store every other day. Every time they say the claim has been approved. But last week they told her that they had only just then assigned an adjuster to the case (a month after the claim!) and asked her to sign a statement that the amp was un-repairable.

Why they are asking my wife, who knows nothing about audio equipment whether or not a complicated piece of electronics is repairable I have no idea. She signed it, which I think was the right thing to do. The amp is no longer in production, cost $7500 new and was sold for $2500. I suspect Bryston would charge more than that to replace the full cabinet and face plate and speaker terminal to get the amp back into the condition it was in before they trashed it. Plus, even then it would still never be worth $2500 as a device that has been damaged in that fashion.

Anyway, my wife remains patient and persistent.

At this point I'm just documenting this in the hopes that anyone reading it will avoid using UPS.

Any update on this issue?

Last week the UPS Store said the check was cut by UPS and would be at the UPS store for us to pick up later this week.

My wife went by there today and it had not arrived.

So it has been over two months since the claim was made.

As mentioned above, my wife is handling this. She remains patient and optimistic (I cannot believe she married ME and has stayed with me for 32 years!).

In any case, I still feel like UPS’s behavior in all of this has been dismal and shameful.

Also, I still have the amp and it does work. Any idea what I should ask for it if I decide to sell it? I don’t really have a use for it. Bear in mind I would be up front with anyone who bought it about what happened to it. It was $7500 new. I sold it for $2500. It has large scratches on all four corners of the face plate and the handles on the back have obviously been completely bent in and then bent back out. Would $500 be too much?

If I had a need for it, $500 would be fine.

The faceplates are not made any more, one would have to be procured from a dead unit. Same for the chassis, and back plate. A technician would have to switch it all over.

I had a rebuilt amp re-certified by Bryston once, but it was a very special case. Normally they don’t do that sort of thing. In this very unusual case... Bryston knew every inch of the history and what  had happened to it. And their tech department re-certified it (half the warranty was still left).

I might contact the guy who bought it the first time and just send it to him if he'll pay shipping.

Got the check today. Full amount. Over 2 1/2 months from the time of the claim.

I've followed this story and so ... congratulations! You ended up with the money (for an aunt?), an amp, and a renewed appreciation for your patient wife! 

Good for you.
Shame on UPS.
They've been using this tactic for years to try and discourage customers to give up on the claim. 
I've been denied a claim from them once for a heavy power amp.  They said the carton wasn't sufficient. It was shipped in the original box with all the packing. I dropped the case because at the time I was too busy at work to fight them.
I know all shipping companies have issues, but IMO Fedex is the safer choice. You might get the same run around, but I believe they ruin less packages, especially heavy the ones.

@northman - quite right.

Now for the soap opera. The estate was from my wife's cousin who died and left his belongings to his widowed mother (his money went somewhere else). That's who I was doing this for. During this interval she passed away and left her estate to my wife's sister who is rather poor. So the money from this gear and the UPS settlement will be very helpful to her.

Yes, I do have this fantastic 5 channel amp that for all I can tell works perfectly but I do not have any use for it. I have three systems but there is no place for this amp in any of those and I need a fourth system like I need  hole in the head.

@markpao - I used FedEx to ship the Classe' pre-amp via an eBay sale and they packed it and shipped it without a problem. It weighed 35 pounds compared to the Bryston's 85 pounds but in the future I will go with FedEx.