The actual value of this amp is a lot more than what the seller paid and what we insured it for, so if UPS tries to play that game I will have to fight back. I hope this does not require an attorney. I hate the thought of that but if it comes down to it I will get one. I'll probably lose money in the process but at some point in time principle has to count for something. |
I refunded the buyer's money even before settling the case with UPS. He certainly should not have any risk in this exchange. I am assuming UPS will settle this properly. I hope they spend as much time investigating why, how and by whom this unit was destroyed as diligently as they seem to be investigating me and the buyer.
They say it will be 8-10 days before they agree to a settlement.
If it is not quick and for the full amount I will probably get an attorney involved as a matter of principle. UPS's service was egregious.
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My wife went back up there. The local manager said that she did not know why it was taking so long and called the higher up again. Couldn't get her on the phone (which is what happened every other time as well). This time she persisted and finally got someone who said the claim was approved they were just waiting on the fax from the local manager. The manager told her it had been faxed to them last week and she had confirmation. The higher up apparently said, "Oh, that fax machine. We never check that one." They assured the local manager that the check would be in the mail by tomorrow morning and they would call to confirm.
So it sounds like clerical errors were the hold up and nothing more. At least that's the positive spin I'm putting on it now. However, if we had not continued to pester them about it who knows when they'd have found the mistake.
It looks like dueling banjos and litigiousness are on hold for now.
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@millercarbon, you never miss an opportunity to insult someone do you? Sometimes I feel bad for you.
I've never done this before. I have never ordered or received hi-fi stereo gear. Zero experience here. (And hi-fi is not my life's calling either).
So when a UPS employee sells me thousands of dollars of insurance and assures me they will do a good job I had no reason to doubt them. Just the packing they did was over $50.
The box was not marked 'fragile' and had no other markings on it.
From the photos the box looked like someone was trying to mangle it. Every surface of the box was damaged. It looked like it fell off a truck and rolled down the road. No corners were square.
The estate gets the same amount of money so there is no loss in that regard. I learned a lesson the hard way. Fool me once.........
Anyway, what I'm hearing is that I need to pack stuff myself. So if I pack it, does it matter who I ship it with? Are some shippers, say FedEx, any better in terms of reputation?
At this point I'm about ready to take it back to the place the relative bought this stuff from. They will sell it on commission so they will price it to move and get 20%. But, this money doesn't come to me and I'm getting tired of the hassle.
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I appreciate the sympathies. As mentioned, I have no financial stake in this exchange but it just kills me to think of such a nice piece of equipment ruined like that. Especially since it did not appear that is was just simply dropped. That kind of mistake is going to happen from time to time and can be forgiven. This unit was not simply dropped. I still can't imagine what happened.
Also as mentioned, I was selling this stuff for an estate. The former owner, a cousin of mine, did not keep the boxes etc for any of this gear. We looked all over for it. I don't suppose the audio dealer that sold him would have kept that stuff?
UPS says they are sending someone to pick up the amp from the buyer. I am assuming they will keep the unit which is their prerogative. I was kind of hoping the buyer would get to keep it and that it might still be functional so this would not have been such a bad experience for him. He apparently is an experienced audiophile and has been on both ends of these type of fiascos and has been very understanding. If I had been the buyer it would have freaked me out!
Anyway, I shipped out a pair of 10' Transparent Super G5 speaker cables that sold here on Audiogon today. I boxed them myself and it was still expensive to ship them because I was not taking any more chance.
At this point I'm not shipping anything else. Local pick up only or take it back to the dealer to sell on consignment.
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It is going to be interesting to see what happens to this unit. UPS has not said yet.
There is a chance the unit might still work.
Some folks have said UPS will ship it back to the original owner. Others say they leave it with the buyer. Others say UPS keeps it.
I told the buyer if they want to leave it with him that is fine by me. This has been a big hassle for him and if it works then good for him.
But, if they will ship it back to me I may keep it and rethink my whole system(s). It will be ugly but it will likely be out of sight anyway. Of course if _they_ ship it back I'm sure it will be utterly destroyed after a second trip in their tender hands.
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The buyer let me know that UPS came and picked up the amp and took it to a "central location." I was hoping that they would leave it with the buyer since this has been so much trouble for him.
But what really has me angry is that UPS has my amp and has not paid me for it. THAT is just nuts! I understand that if they pay me for it it is theirs to keep. But they have it and I don't have my money. I've got too much going on this weekend to deal with it but on Monday if I don't have the money I'm going to raise hell (for whatever that might be worth). But, if I get the run around I will have a lawyer involved immediately. (And for whatever it might be worth I am not litigious person. I have used a lawyer a grand total of once in my life decades ago for a clear cut issue that was resolved as soon as the attorney sent a letter.)
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Update: My wife went up to the UPS store where it was packaged and shipped initially to find out what is going on. They now have the amp. My wife saw it there in the box but she said the box was not recognizable as a box. The clerk there said they'd have a decision about the insurance claim by the end of the week. My wife told them we expect them to pay us no later than Thursday, full amount including shipping. Not sure that makes any difference.
Also not sure if they will allow us to have it back since they will be paying us the amount paid for it. If I knew it worked I might buy it back from them but I have no way of knowing and wouldn't gamble without knowing.
I've been pretty disappointed in UPS's attitude in all this. As soon as we made the claim they started treating us like the bad guys who have to prove we're not trying to scam them. Totally unacceptable in my opinion. A sad commentary on the state of society as well. Not shocked by any means. Its just sad.
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Update: UPS is giving us the run around. They filed the claim on Aug 14. They have the damaged amp back in the local UPS store. They said we'd have a decision and a check within 10 days. We checked back several times after the 10 day mark and were told that they were waiting for the higher-ups to make a decision. Today (17 days after the claim was filed) they are saying the same thing and will not give us contact information for anyone above the local store.
I have not called an attorney yet and don't want to do so. In the end it will probably cost me money to do it. But something clearly needs to be done.
Does anyone know if this sort of thing can be handled in small claims court?
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My wife (not an attorney) is saying the same thing. I get caught up in the principle of things and sometimes end up tilting windmills. Sometimes I think if more people were willing to fight this sort of thing that the offending parties would be more responsive.
Good thing dueling is outlawed. |
I have heard that that might be true. Right now I’m not sure how long I have to wait to do even that.
As a reminder, this was not my amp. I am selling this gear for my wife’s aunt, a widow whose only child passed away. It was his gear. This money is for her. So l’m not out anything no matter how this plays out.
Right now it has become a matter of principle to me. The whole thing is UPS’s fault and in my opinion they are behaving shamefully. |
This morning came and went. No call about the check. Can't say I'm surprised. Once again feel like I'm getting the run around.
@northman (the "@" function never works on this site), I don't know what UPS's policy is on what happens to the damaged item. If they pay the claim then they rightfully own it.......but I can't imagine what they'd do with it. I had hoped they would leave it with the buyer so that if it worked he at least got something for his troubles.
When the claim is settled I will ask for it. I have not examined it. From the pictures the side handles on the rear are bent in but it looked like all the binding posts were intact. I think a corner of the face plate was bent in or cracked. I suspect it might still work. If so I could probably use it especially since learning that a 5 channel amp like this can be used to bi-amp. Even if I couldn't use it I might be able to sell it for a few hundred to give to my wife's aunt.
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Still no call or check. Wife went back up to local UPS store. They called the higher ups again. They have all the information and will have a check out within 5 days. Mind you, we were told we would have a check by last Friday. My wife who is forever patient, optimistic and desires to think the best of people is starting to get upset.
So not only is UPS incompetent for this type of shipping, they are also irresponsible and incompetent when it comes to correcting their mistakes.
Will never use them again for anything. Not that they care. But as a consumer all I can do is vote with my feet. |
@northman, no good news. No news at all in fact. My wife is the one that has been having to deal with this and it is her relative that gets the money for these components I've been selling for the estate.
Well, I was getting upset with her for not pushing UPS. It has been nearly a month from now.
She was getting fed up with me. She told me to let her handle it so I've washed my hands of it. As far as I know still no money.
It makes me mad. What UPS has done is wrong. How they have responded to it is shameful. But it is out of my hands now and I'm just trying not to think about it. And I'm less stressed out when I don't.
I will also say that getting rid of this hi-fi gear has been a miserable experience. We've sold most of it. We got less than half the new value on everything but the Aerial Acoustic 5T speakers where we got right at half their new value. For most everything else we got less than a third of the new value. All of this gear was like new, most of it current models. On top of that eBay/PayPal holds onto the payments for like a week because we have not had many sales. So between UPS and eBay I've sold about $7500 worth of gear and have gotten only about $2000 so far and all of that was on Craig's List or Audiogon sales. We've had to fend of scammers and lowballers. We had to come home from out of town to meet a buyer so he could pick up the speakers (really nice guy).
The only experiences that were halfway decent were through Craig's List oddly enough.
Anyway, we're almost done and I hope I never have to do it again. No fun.
For our efforts I kept a pair of Aerial Acoustic 6Ts. They are wonderful but I really don't need them.
Sorry to unload my first world problems. Just needed to vent.
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Update: My wife went back to UPS Store. Still no check. They call the central office while she is there, they say the claim has been approved and that we'll get the check soon. They say 5-10 days is typical. It has been nearly a month. Anyway, its in my wife's hands and she seems infinitely patient.
However, they gave her the amp.
I got it in the original shipping box. It was a regular box. Imagine a basic moving box. Very flimsy. The unit had been wrapped once with the large bubble wrap stuff. The ones with the big individual air bags. All of them were flat. Buggers the imagination.
On the amp both of the handles on the rear were bent inward. This amp is a tank and I had to use large pliers to straighten the handles. One of the plastic speaker terminal covers is cracked. There are dents/scuffs on all four corners of the face plate.
Otherwise it looks fine. And guess what? It works. All five channels.
At this point I'm not sure what to do with it. I've decided that I do not want it. It just does not fit well in the room and is overkill for my purposes.
Not sure how something like this would sell but I might stick it on Craig's List and see what I can get for it as-is. Even $500 would be something.
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Still no pay out on the amp. My wife goes by the UPS store every other day. Every time they say the claim has been approved. But last week they told her that they had only just then assigned an adjuster to the case (a month after the claim!) and asked her to sign a statement that the amp was un-repairable.
Why they are asking my wife, who knows nothing about audio equipment whether or not a complicated piece of electronics is repairable I have no idea. She signed it, which I think was the right thing to do. The amp is no longer in production, cost $7500 new and was sold for $2500. I suspect Bryston would charge more than that to replace the full cabinet and face plate and speaker terminal to get the amp back into the condition it was in before they trashed it. Plus, even then it would still never be worth $2500 as a device that has been damaged in that fashion.
Anyway, my wife remains patient and persistent.
At this point I'm just documenting this in the hopes that anyone reading it will avoid using UPS. |
Last week the UPS Store said the check was cut by UPS and would be at the UPS store for us to pick up later this week.
My wife went by there today and it had not arrived.
So it has been over two months since the claim was made.
As mentioned above, my wife is handling this. She remains patient and optimistic (I cannot believe she married ME and has stayed with me for 32 years!).
In any case, I still feel like UPS’s behavior in all of this has been dismal and shameful.
Also, I still have the amp and it does work. Any idea what I should ask for it if I decide to sell it? I don’t really have a use for it. Bear in mind I would be up front with anyone who bought it about what happened to it. It was $7500 new. I sold it for $2500. It has large scratches on all four corners of the face plate and the handles on the back have obviously been completely bent in and then bent back out. Would $500 be too much?
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I might contact the guy who bought it the first time and just send it to him if he'll pay shipping.
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Got the check today. Full amount. Over 2 1/2 months from the time of the claim.
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@northman - quite right.
Now for the soap opera. The estate was from my wife's cousin who died and left his belongings to his widowed mother (his money went somewhere else). That's who I was doing this for. During this interval she passed away and left her estate to my wife's sister who is rather poor. So the money from this gear and the UPS settlement will be very helpful to her.
Yes, I do have this fantastic 5 channel amp that for all I can tell works perfectly but I do not have any use for it. I have three systems but there is no place for this amp in any of those and I need a fourth system like I need hole in the head.
@markpao - I used FedEx to ship the Classe' pre-amp via an eBay sale and they packed it and shipped it without a problem. It weighed 35 pounds compared to the Bryston's 85 pounds but in the future I will go with FedEx. |
