SET Shootout China VS The USA
2A3 SET from china arrives any day now.
The tech who loaned me his UX250 (aka 50 Tube) amp, with a 12AU7 in front + a 6BH7 (??) , has incredible pure Cobalt out trans. ($1k+ each back in 2000, now no longer in production). . he will help me set up the 2A3.
Has a AX+AU my 2 fav front tubes anda quad of 2A3's.
My speakers are pure neutrality, no coloration, no distortion,.
So whatever amp/ source you plug in, will register the nuances inherent in the circuit.
Will be very interesting.
USA has pure cobalt out trans which gives the edge in power, but the china 2A3 has a 2 tubes per channel.
Gonna be interesting and will post a YT upload with comments,
AFTER TESTING IS COMPLETEED.
Hand on to your horses at the OK Corral.
Grab a beer at the saloon,
sundown shootout at the edge of town.
@mozartfan once again, your absolute conclusions are premature and your sample size is limited. It doesn’t mean you won’t enjoy it, it just means that your conclusions lack credibility. For instance, I have an el34 based amplifier in my closet which would likely change your opinion about absolute tube type superiority.
At any rate, I will leave you alone now. It is abundantly clear you aren’t looking for opinions or advice, you are just looking for an audience. Best. |
Yeah well my tech really does not wish to get into any **mods**, He figures let the amp **do its thing**. He last words were (in spite knowing well the trans were Z11), *who knows you might like it..** And I do, I actually give the edge to a 2A3 PP vs the much more common PP the KT in all its variatiosn, EL34, 88,120,150. IMHO this 2A3 wins out over the KT series. I try to explain in the video below. The Diana Krall cd is the ultimate test cd for any and all speakers. If your speaker can make it all they way through Diana 's cd, then you have a winning speaker.
As I try to explain in this video. should be uploaded by now.....
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@mozartfan One of your main problems here is you're paying attention to tube type and not much else. Look at Charles list above especially output transformers which really make or break a tube amp's quality. Parts matter it's why generally tube amps, SET amps especially are more expensive. You should let your tech go over your new amp he obviously builds amps and knows parts quality, I suspect your Yaquins could be a good platform for some parts mods that could boost SQ significantly. |
In my opinion I just think that you rush to conclusions prematurely. You are doing some interesting things and expanding your experience with different types of tubes and amplifiers. Just take time to absorb new discoveries and let things sink in, no need to declare absolutes at this stage (Or perhaps any subsequent stage). You note that discussions about tubes can get slippery. A lot of truth there. You can have two 2A3 amplifiers, however they differ in power supply quality, output transformers, type of coupling capacitors and internal wiring. Despite both utilizing the same 2A3 tubes the two amplifiers can/will sound quite different. You have to account for the numerous variables involved. Continue to explore as you’re definitely learning as you go. Charles |
Give me some jazz! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Wanted to fulfill your wish with Diana Krall, a perfect track which displays fq spikes on piano, where other xover speakers are going to have issues. vs these FR dual speakers,,no spikes whatsoever. But can’t. Had a good rain last night, its FINALLY cool outside and humidity is at 100%. = the chips in the DAC are not happy, soaking in 100% humidity. Tiny pops. have to wait a good hour before the DAC heats up and dries out the chips. I’ve never heard it this bad before, although this is the 1st winter I had the DAC, so Now i know cooler temps + 100% humidity = DAC needs 2 hours warm up time to dry out, Dont want to run heater as we are enjoying the cooler temps inside the house, finally,... what a hot winter we are having. What I can say is the Diana Krall cd is recorded with a traditional jazz warmth. Too warm. But with this speaker, this amp, its all nice and mellow, clean, voice stunning accurate and te warm coloration toned down. There are so many wonderful KT88 amplifiers now avaliable. Cayin, Jadis, Line Magnetic, Willenston, Doge, Prima Luna, Muzishare. plenty others I did not mention. These will work with all speakers. But ideally, a SET or PP with SET type tubes is best for a FR speaker.
EDIT~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So I steped away to go listen to music,,and the thought occured, Although this amp is not a pure SET circuit, the 2A3 still adds some linear midrange which a KT88 does not posess to ~~the same degree~~~, How s that fora compromise. = a KT88 will not be as effective, that is misses the linear midrange of a 2A3 whether the 2A3 is a SET circuit of a PP design. So theres no doubt at this point. Witha FR system a SET or a low watt tube is not only ideal, buta must have to effectively bringa FR to its true midrange magic. No I will not discuss this with my tech, as he's going to argue the other POV. Then again for full Orchestra, a KT88 is the superior voice for a complex band width in a FR speaker,, which is why I do not like a FR to go over the Golden Sens mark, at 95db sens. 96 db is too high for my preferences. 91db is a bit too low. |
What does your tech say?
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Just ran by what I said here,, &&a 2A3 has superior mids than the KT series tube..** well tech wants to know **exactly which KT are you refering to...** hummm, tell ya what,,, humm, lets say this 2A3 took me by surprised, Better? well hard to say now , as its been 4 months since I heard the KT88’s, and those had 4k+ hours and ran the KT88’s via a Thor speaker and a single FR speaker and or a 8 FR + a W4 FR, THe W8+ W6 is a whole nother ball game. So all is not even .
You mentioned, **KT88’s as smoother vs a PP 2A3,,** Might have to agree, **Might** as in 1st off have to hear the new EHKT88’s, mid summer 2) have to0 hear a 2A3 mesh. Late summer So **The Jury is still out..** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What I will say is this Bottom line *IF** The 2A3 mesh plates do perform as 6 Moons says the Sophia 300B mesh perform,, well then we have a solid vote for 2A3 PP vs a KT88 PP. There does not exist a meshed KT88, only solid plates. This may give the advantage to the 2A3, Follow?? As you know these discussiions around tubes can get slippery. Not justa few weeks ago,,**SET, yeah #1..** Now, cant say that. I actually by mistake or by lucky chance,,hit on this 2A3 PP circuit. Will the mesh elimiante some of the ever so slight harshness/in some mids fq’s??? Late summer we will know.. |
@charles1dad the Merason is VERY good. Very good. Worth a listen as I can’t promise it isn’t system dependent but I have listened extensively to the Merason through an Audio Note OTO SE Signature, a Leben, two Shindo systems and it just slays…it has displaced a MSB Discrete, an AQUA La Scala Optologic and I couldn’t recommend it more highly for others to audition.
Now @mozartfan let things settle in. As long as your speakers are suitable, a proper kt88 based push-pull amp should not be smoother than a proper 2a3 amp, push-pull or set. Whao can say though as you have a whole lot going on there. What does your tech say? |
these “shouty” type sensitive speakers can often be too bright and harsh ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I can easily understand what you are saying about a SET witha FR/horn speaker that might have some **issues** = such as Fostex with their characteristic *shout**. This Yaquin 2A3, is not forgiving. That is to say if there is any **weakness* in the FR speaker,, this 2A3 will **accentuate** that **flaw** This tiny bit of resonances (how much due to the tube typical character of a 2A3, and how much is due to this lower priced Psvane,,can’t say) ``` is definitely there in the sound... But I gain in resolution, instrument separation, female vocals with passion. The dual DavidLouis pick it up.
So a FR/horn that might have some resonances, spikes in certain fq’s,. whatever,,, might find this 2A3 amp not to their taste. One really needs a neutral speaker to make this amp work. So far I;’m happy with any **weakness* of this combination. Its all acceptable, nothing grating on my nerves, Nothing at all fatiguing.
~~Is it a sound comparable to a Kronzilla 4 tube mono block, with AER’s top driver,
,,not It is a budget system, nothing more, but certainly nothing less. How it compares to new EHKT88’s, 6 months we will find out. Afterwards in say 8 months from now, Mesh 2A3 vs EHKT88’s. More to come..... |
to hear a good quality 300b amplifier and decide for yourself.
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WEll I've learned to take what he says with some ~~conisderations~~~. He has his opinions, but certainly with more experience, He has desined a 300B SET.
Again, with so many big designs out there in the 300B, the tube must have some magic, otherwise no one would buy them.
I'm glad this amp turned out to be a PP vs my misunderstanding it was going to be a SET,,Actually soem of the SET linear magic has worn a bit thin,,now that the initial **WOW** exp has passed.
I perfer this more dynamics of a PP sound.
There is a bit of harshness to the 2A3 vs the KT88.
Hoping a higher quality *mesh* plate resolves a bit of the resonsnces,
But what i am hearing is well worth the minus ofa bit of resonaces, aka distortion,, (5% for this tube).
My tech thinks the so call *mesh* plate , might be a bit of snskeoil,,hes skeptcal I'll get any gains vs my current Psvane.
However reading a 6 Moons review on the Sophia Electric 300B Mesh, if even half of what the review say s is true, I'll bea happy camper.
The Full Music looks identical to the Sophia.
I will bea unhappy camper if the gains are miniscule nuance, not for $600/quad.
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Thanks @charles1dad as Ive stated a few times on this forum, we prefer our audio systems to live with us rather than the inverse. The system to which you refer is just that….unlike some on Audiogon, our systems aren’t intended to evoke wow comments from guests, 7nless its playing music. |
My preference for the 2A3 SET has more to do with horns/lowthers . In my experiences, these “shouty” type sensitive speakers can often be too bright and harsh. The 2A3 seems a bit more unforgiving, albeit with less drive too. for years I tried to scale out the SET sound of these tubes, to achieve their sound on a more conventional speaker/setup. They are magical indeed.. it’s their simplicity that makes them so special. |
@mozartfan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rp7UPbhErE Thought this was relevant to your last few posts and your new found Yaquin miracle.
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I have no doubt that you have a very competent and experienced tech who has earned your trust and admiration. As you know opinions abound in the audio world. Everyone likes something and dislikes something else. 300b is no exception to this. There are so many different 300b amplifier choices from multiple builders at prices ranging from 500.00 to 100,000.00. There are easily a dozen different 300b tube choices to place in an amplifier. I would very kindly encourage you find an opportunity to hear a good quality 300b amplifier and decide for yourself. We all hear differently and certainly possess varying preferences and desires. My 300b SET mono blocks provide sublime sound quality. Sometimes generalizations can be too broad brushed. In my opinion you can't go wrong with either the 2A3 or 300b (Or 845, 211, 45 etc.). Builder /designer talent and successful execution are the major determinants of component sound quality. Charles |
@mozartfan which flavor of ice cream does your tech tell you to eat? The 300b in the right circuit, just like the 2a3, can be exceptional…but not all of them. Full range drivers can sound exceptional…but not all of them. This is from a happy 300b, full range single driver speaker owner. Its just not my only system. |
^^^+1 Totally agree! I also prefer the 2A3 over a 300B in a pure SET amp.^^^ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yet how often do I see 300B and 2A3 mentioned as options offered in a design. AS though they were closely matched in terms of performance. My tech urges me to avoid the 300B in any part of a design, (845 w 300B as driver). He has no issues with the 2A3. Then again there are fans of the 300B that love their pure linear SET soundstage. My tech mentioned the 300B original intent for the tube was telecom usage. Meaning fq cut off in both ends of the band width spectrum. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
^^^^Your tech is correct, perforated metal plate rather than a true mesh design. EML makes a genuine mesh tube, they are costly. You could still really appreciate the sound of the Full Music perforated plate tube once acquired.^^^^ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes I’ve seen the EML’s , out my budget. The TJ FM *mesh* is definetly a different material, and will offer a different soundstage vs his NOS RCA’s 1940’s he is offering me. great price at $100 each. But is the TJ FM pseudo mesh plates that interest me most. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I should also mention, last time I heard the KT88 was in the Thors and also a single FR speaker. Which makes the testing imbalanced/skewed. Adding a 2nd 6 inch FR with the 2A3 alters the testing. IOW the only way to properly test a KT88 PP to a @a# PP, is with same exact speakers. This may be 6 months before I retube the KT88 amplifier. Preliminary guess is that the 88 will perform better in a Dual FR /double tweeter system vs the previous Single FR/and Thor system. Yet I strongly suspect the 2A3 to come out nuances superior vs the KT88. How each perform in complex symphonic, is anyones guess. Stay tuned.,,,plenty more to come.... |
Your tech is correct, perforated metal plate rather than a true mesh design. EML makes a genuine mesh tube, they are costly. You could still really appreciate the sound of the Full Music perforated plate tube once acquired. I can understand why you are attracted to DHT tubes (101D in my preamplifier and 300b amplifiers). Pure musical beauty if implementation is done well. I feel that you're on a good path. Charles |
Proclamations are difficult to back up.
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True
'I've nor heard
every EL34,88,120,150 tube amp ever made. based on a few models,, these tubes **pretty much** all sounded the same.At least to me ears.
hardlya nuance difference.
THe pre tubes in each design responded much more to preference.
I'm a Tele fan.
So like yeah,,here I am thinking 2A3 wow doube tubes,, read the descript,, now that i think about it, it might have added the one word PP, but also thought it did say, SET...The Inet only mentioned the 2A3 in a SET design,, so I'm thinking its a SET tube.
Someone here on Audiogon, noted it may be a PP,, My tech confirmed and brought the ad up on his computer,,anyway, he said, **you might like this chinese budget amp,,then again...**.
Yaquin has always been in my mind like Ming Da, Dared, the low budget end of chinese gear..
WEll turns out I much prefer this 2A3 in a PP vs all KT varieties, (exception is Jadis' new KT170, which looks promising but at 10x's the price of this lil Yaquin..).
Anyway, listening to a classical cd recorded poorly from Russian Archives, sounded fantastic on the 2A3.
Faith Hill never sounded as good.
There is no doubt, this 2A3 out performa s , all KT designs.
I've yet to hear Full Music Mesh plates (my tech mentioned its nota true mesh, more like perforated metal..), still from what I've read the Mesh offer nice resolutions.
The Jadis Defy7 will be great in more comples symphonic orch,,but for all other music, this 2A3 will beat out the Defy. |
Catching up, what a surprise this turned out to be, whole bunch here actually seem to understand Lewis Hamilton was robbed, and Verstappen handed a world championship. All the drivers knew it was a cluster in real time as it was happening, as their live radio shows and the more experienced (Vettel, Alonso, etc) the more they knew it. Which being so obvious makes me all the more pleasantly surprised, and credit where credit's due. May be hope for some of you guys yet. |
@mozartfan its cool you are enjoying your purchase but how do you know what is best bang for the buck? Eroding credibility? |
OK Yaquin 2A3 is in Gotta say, I prefer this 2A3 tube PP over the El34,KT88,120, 150 series. Over all superior sound. Have not heard Jadis' KT170 which I am sure will give this 2A3 a run for its money. I think this 2A3 under $1500 is best bang in any amp. I was sold on the single tube SET, but along coes this 2A3 PP amp. The stock ax,au's were garbage. Pluged in Teles, Nice gains. Just waiting on cash so I can swap out the Psvane stock 2A3's for TJ Full Music Mesh plates. + will swap out resistors for Takman Rey metal and also look to swap out some caps for Mundorf SESGO. Will take 6 months to complete these upgrades.
Again its my opinion the 2A3 PP is superior to the EL, KT series PP amp.
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tubes) can sound superb. I heard a Jadis amplifier using the very common el 34 and it was exceedingly good sounding.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I wished the Defy had 1) individual Bias pots for each tube 2) accepted EL34’s 3) 4 tubes per channel, not the 6. , Back to reality, I really did not note much dif between my techs EL34 (something like the Dynaco design), his Allen Organ KT120 mono blocks, and the Kt88;s. ’Blind testing, you’d be lucky which is which. Readinga DIYers offerings on Aliexpress, His dual 300B amp and dual 2A3, your choice, he went on to say, **both the pure SET and this dual tube per channel PP design, one can not say, either is superior to the other...** Paraphrase mine. After reading his comments on his amps, I’ve altered my opinion about PP in both SET tube designs and KT designs. . The initial emotions of experiencing the super linear, magical midrange on certain recordings, , has to be considered as just 1 option for high fidelity. Should be monday when I have the 2A3 PP amp, up N running/biased properly. I*f I find its a keeper, I’ll order the TJ Full Music *mesh*,, Although my tech is not buying the tube is a true mesh. At least not like the mesh plates made back in the early days of tube manufacturing. |
The listening experience was quite some years ago at CES. At that time I actually felt the push-pull was the better sounding choice. I just don't believe you can serve 2 masters equally due to inevitable compromise design and implementation decisions to do both. Could be SET was more affected by the dual purpose/circuit design.
I'm a SET amplifier guy but without any question push pull (Particularly with DHT tubes) can sound superb. I heard a Jadis amplifier using the very common el 34 and it was exceedingly good sounding. Talent level of the builder is such a huge factor. Charles |
The 349 is now quite rare and expensive, although there is a reasonably priced drop in alternative (6V6?). The amp also runs 348 as input and driver tubes. Both types now sell for somewhere around $1600 each for used tubes that test “strong.” My stereo amp runs four of each type. The only good news is that the tubes are run gently so they seem to last forever. The amp is essentially a stereo rebuild of a Western Electric 133 amp. It has the correct input and output transformers for that amp type as well as some other vintage parts. The sound of my 349 amp is similar to a 6L6 amp. I generally like that tube and KT 66 tubes as well. |
@larryi I'm jealous of all the amps you've heard and own! I also never knew there was a 349 tube until your last post. I've heard a pushpull 45 amp sounding great as well as my own pushpull 2a3 amp, also loved a Cary pushpull 2a3 integrated I was loaned for a week once. @charles1dad Glad you had a chance to hear that Manley it sounds like a cool amp. |
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With the Manley, which sounded better in the setup you heard--the pushpull or single-ended setting? I am pretty much agnostic when it comes to best topology. I've heard quite a number of very good amps employing all sorts of approaches. Between my pushpull 45, pushpull 349 and parallel single-ended 2a3 amps, my favorite is the pushpull 349. There are things I do like about the parallel SET amp, but the fullness of the 349 amp carries the day. Among all the amps I've listened to in a familiar system, my favorite is a custom-built output transformerless amp--the sound was extremely vivid and lively, without having an unnatural edginess to it. My next favorite is a pushpull 252 amp (a real Western Electric 59A amp) that was also extremely lively and full sounding. I heard the 252 amp side by side with the Audio Note Kageki (the parallel SET amp that I own), and by comparison, the Kageki sounded thin and drab. The best SET amp I heard was an Audio Note Gaku-On. The Gaku-On sounds good with just about any speaker I heard it playing; . |
I had a pair of Cary PP 2A3 monos back in the mid 90’s that were great sounding and fairly energetic.. Too bad the reliability/quality wasn’t a priority with them. I went through 3 Cary 306 SACD players before I found one that was half way reliable.. even that one skipped and stopped loading properly a year later.. They’re just up the street from me, but I got tired of their lack of quality control and never looked back.. |
Charles1dad, Thank you for pointing out the Manley PSET-PP amp that can operate both topologies,. I do wonder, however, if it can really deliver optimal performance for both types, particularly because of the specific demands for a good SET transformer. Because the full DC current drawn by the output tube must flow through the primary of the output transformer, the transformer must be designed to handle this current without core saturation. This requirement is usually met by an air gap in the magnetic circuit, which results in reduced inductance which can be compensated for with more iron and more turns in the primary. These compensatory measures would not be as desirable for PP operation. I do wonder if this type of convertible amp is somewhat like an amphibious car--it can be both a car and a boat, but it does neither very well. |
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Well said @ghasley. There are absolutely no absolutes in this hobby. |
A couple of quick observations but first, congratulations on your health and congratulations on finding what you were looking for.
I have a pair of single driver, set driven full range speakers and they are extraordinary. So, I agree with you in principle. They are not, however, the pinnacle nor are yours. Full stop. They are what they are and on certain types of music I can see how some, maybe even you or I, might believe they have found the holy grail. What they do well, they do well. They are not the best overall speaker that I have in my home, those are two way with an exquisite crossover in an exquisite, well thought out cabinet developed by a respected designer using tried and true principles with exceptional parts quality.
It's awesome that you love your setup but your credibility wanes as your hyperbole rises when you discuss the absolutes of your belief that your home grown speakers exceed the capabilities of all comers. It's cool the like what you like, as well you should. You should be very proud of your accomplishments and leave it at that. Just enjoy your system and leave the crowning of a champion to those who have the chops. Nobody has the best but for many of us, we have WHAT's best for each of us. Warm regards. |
I know what you guys are thinking,,, how is it even remotely possible a DIY speaker, dual FR has a midrange that can match,, no wait, SURPASS the mids of a Wilson, Dali, Sonus Faber, or Rockport,, all in the mega $$$ price tag??? Impossible!!! WEll believe what you wish to believe. I know what I hear. There is no xover/low sens speaker gonna match a higher end FR in the complete midrange band width. I've gone over this more than a dozens x's here on audiogon and I aint gonna repeat myself. |
Being happy on here is an uphill battle, be strong!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AS you know, and we all know. This is a **Cancel Culture Epoch*** Translate,, **If you are sasying, believing something that does not agree with what I believe,, you are offically canceled, deleted, voided..** The DIY FR discussion forum, has canceled me , banned me from THEIR chat forum, I can not post on DIY any longer,, Why?? I did something against their rules, regulations, their beliefs. Its a longgg story how I got banned. But trust me, Cancel Culture is all over this earth right now. I aplogize if I am stepping on some audiophiles toes around here. My speaker has beena life long pursuit and I found it just after my last confrontal with death, Seems I did not pass away in the emergency room operation, not just yet, until I found what I was always looking for Near perfect midrange.
This is part of my desire to remain alive,,, to complete my task of findinf, discovering if need be via a DIY design, a near perfect midrange speaker. Death almost cheated me of my dreams.
Sorry if I am offending folks opinions here. But I am what I am. Nice day everyone. I will be back with more news on the 2A3 + FR system performance. Ice bucket me all you want, the mods here know I have not once snided nor offended any member in my 20+ years stink here in Audiogon. I practice civility as modus operandi. |
I heard that amplifier years ago at CES. It’s a good sounding amplifier. I don’t believe that it extracts the best that a SET can provide because fthe output transformers are not exclusively committed to the SET circuit. There’s some inevitable compromise in order to accommodate the push-pull circuit needs. Still a worthy effort. Charles |
@charles1dad Great call I totally remember that amp! Seemed like an odd idea at the time and still does. 😋 |
