Seriously considering tube preamp…opinions?

Sorry,I was thinking the Decware item would be your preamp. 

It's good to have aspirations! I have a very detailed chart which I've built from these suggestions; some of these will be marked out as things for down the road. This is one. @decooney was saying a lot of great things about Pass, too. Thank you!

@tvad  I'm so grateful to learn from your experience. I do not want to buy and sell, over and over. I'm not against changes but there are other things besides audio I want to pursue, if I may say that out loud.
@decooney has been making the same point about all tubes — I think the message is sinking into my head.

I've had exactly 1 experience with tubes — the all-tube Prima Luna EVO 400, which I didn't like. Sloppy bass, lack of tightness and crisp highs. And I do realize that was likely a one-off for various reasons. If I could have another session which had the virtues of tubes (a variety of virtues, I'm not trying to oversimplify) but which contained a bit more of the crisp, tight, control of solid state, I'd probably be ready to go all tube right now. But I have to hear it.

I don't think of your comment as a sidebar; you see that I'm after what you finally accomplished, and you're warning me off what might be a potential dead-end. That's appreciated.

And RMAF may be worth waiting for, final decision-wise. I'll probably gain years of experiential knowledge from that event.

@last_lemming  I'll look at decware but very low wattage. I am not sure about how that would pair.
@naimfan  Thanks for those additional suggestions.

I've been glad to collect and hear rationales for anything folks mentioned, especially if they worked somewhere w/in the price parameters I mentioned. I've learned a lot.

But honestly, I realize that I will *not* buy something I cannot audition on a trial basis —either in a store or on a demo. I want to hear things in combination, preferably with my speakers and, ideally, in my home.

From all the research I've done and considering my location (Denver area), the tube list gets shorter:

So, what I can actually audition in stores or via mail, these are the choices:

Schiit
Quicksilver
Black Ice/Jolida
McIntosh (a bit pricy but the MA252 is doable)
Prima Luna
Rogue
Octave (probably too expensive)

If I missed a brand that does in home trial, please correct me.

This probably kills all interest in the topic, but just want to let you know how things are ending up for me!

@hilde45 -

I missed your budget being a combination of preamp and amp - my apologies. 

For both, you could do something like a CJ PV12/15 or ARC LS15 and match it with something like a McCormack DNA .5 or 1, Krell KST-100 (make sure it's been serviced), various Brystons, etc.  You'd likely want to get a set of replacement tubes for any tube pre you bought used; but that's usually not a huge expense. 

@atmasphere One parameter is budget. Is this Atma or Ear in the neighborhood of $3k?

I own Atma Sphere MP-1 and consider this as one of the finest tube preamps available today on the market. Ear Yoshino would be my second choice. 

I just sent back the Freya S - yes the non tube version. Just didn’t gel w my system. It was clean and clear, but everything seemed smaller and thinner. I paired it with my ARC Classic 60. Again the SS version, not the tube version.
The 20 year old Herron I have now just smashes it. Just as good if not better than my BAT VK 3ix pre on my main system.

also look at Decware. Point to point wiring, hand built. Great warranty. 

Interesting about the Schiit. I was very interested in them, and am cooling off a bit. I’ve now read a number of comparisons btw, for example, their DAC and other DAC’s (eg Denafrips), their tube and other tube pres, their power and other power. Their prices are amazing, but once one starts to climb north of 2k, it starts to change the equation, it seems. Having never owned anything better than an Adcom, I’m only summarizing what I’ve read. I’ll look at that link you mention. It sounds like it might be hard to sell, down the road, but the price is quite low.

Stay away from the Schitt! The one I bought was awful, I sent it back.

I just got one of these from Space-Tech Laboratory in Canada:  http://www.thebestamp.com/Tube_Pre-Amps/Classic_100_Series/QA-112.php -- with two inputs. The owner, Al, is a great guy and custom builds to order. It sounds phenomenal and cost about $800. Call him up -- he answers the phone and will walk you through what you need and can afford. Good luck!

Thanks -- both of those are really appealing.

There is/ was a MA 252 here on Agon they were asking $3K not sure it's still for sale. 

I've had my Vincent 237 for about a month now and after putting some new tubes in am really liking it.  It has a lot of bite and energy in the midrange and a lot of detail in the upper registers without being "bright" or "brittle".  It seems to be a nice match with my Harbeth P3ESRs.  I paid $1250 for mine and spent $110 on the tubes.  

I was looking hard at the Vincent 237, but that was about $1k less. This is very, very tempting. I need to read reviews, get feedback. I'd certainly be very proud to show it off. 

@hilde45 "I do like the tight, punch, crispness of solid state".

One other angle to throw at ya...MA252.   It’s possible a hybrid tube/solid state integrated amplifier could ALSO be right up your alley vs. separates. It helps with other savings too. Disclaimer: While I’m not a McIntosh or Parsaound or Primaluna fan boy, it seems the latest generation of these integrated amps are sort of targeting what you are asking for, essentially. "Crisp", I don’t know, that’s your ears and taste to decide. Mc is not known for crisp, old or new. Might be too plush for ya yet. But, perhaps a closer look for a quick listen. While I’ve never heard one of THESE personally and have a few friends with Audio Note 300B amps and such, some of them like this MA252 unit for more round-the-clock use in alternate systems or den room systems. Makes good sense for a consolidated 1st system approach too. Heck who knows, a primary system winner for some!

Maybe test your ears again and go listen to one of these and see if it’s more (1/2 way) between where you want to be. You avoid the cost of costly interconnects, all in one, tube front end, solid state back end. It’s more than a trend developing, some value to it as well.

Example#1:
https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/integrated-amplifiers/MA252

MA252 Two-Channel Integrated Amplifier

• Hybrid design: vacuum tube preamp and solid state power amp
• 100 Watts into 8 Ohms
• 160 Watts into 4 Ohms

If you believe other’s quotes, take it with a grain of salt, but...

Quote:

"The McIntosh MA252 offers an alluring combination of tube romanticism and solid-state resolution and authority... The ability to connect the listener to the music makes this tube-solid state integrated a special component by any standard. I could happily listen to the MA252 for a long, long time." - PTA

..

@dodgealum  Good to consider. I expect to talk myself into more extravagant purchases down the road, but for now, my intended listening space (and the amount of time I have to listen) are modest. I'm trying to  take it slow.

@decooney  I'll go look for it, and thank you. Everyone's said "get your speakers first" so perhaps the process needs to be done slowly. I do like the tight, punch, crispness of solid state, only I am not sure if I might not want it all the way. 

@hilde45, Sent you a message.  If I were in your shoes, you might want to decide first if you want a solid state or tube back end amplifier. There are not too many really good SS amps that "sort of, partially" emulate tube sound, many have tried, and they are big $, well outside of your budget of $3k total for pre+amp.  

To stay within budget you would need to buy used. I think retail is around $6500. You may want to call Keith he sometimes has trades or other ways of working with you on price. Be careful though—once you talk to him you will want to join the family—he is that awesome!

Thanks all. These are good suggestions.
@scothurwitz  The Don Sachs suggestion does keep coming up. (Also: Quicksilver, Ultraverve, Had)
@dodgealum I cannot see a price on the Herron VTSP-3A page.

Hi Hilde45

The name for tube preamps that keeps coming up is Don Sachs. It’s nearly impossible to find a bad word ever written about this gentleman or his best preamp. The more I read about it the more impressed I became with it. The product is sold direct only, the only way to keep the cost as reasonable as it is. His newest model sells for $2500.00 usd. Based on all that has been written about it’s supposed to sound fantastic. He takes into consideration which the amp you plan on using with it so he can tailor the output caps to be a perfect match. The reliability is also supposed to be rock solid. If you email him he responds within a day or two every time. He also has a ok return policy which, I believe is 14 days but you don’t get your money back immediately from what I understand. I think he returns your money only after he re-sells it. At first this was a little disconcerting but I get it, he runs on super low margins and his reputation is excellent. I don’t think he gets many of them returned though as his customers all rant and rave about this thing. If I were you, I would look into it. Best of luck.

Scot

VTSP 3A (R03) I think Keith sells 10 times the number of phonostages than linestages (I have both) but the line stage is just as spectacular as the much praised VTPH-2a

Dennis Had Inspire preamp. Hand made in the U.S.

PL is all hype IMHO. Made in Red China.

That’s great, @oddiofyl . I will go look for those -- very simple unit. I suppose that keeps costs low and noise out. (Was looking at Parasound and what a difference in the feature set. I suppose one just goes a different direction with these sort of things.) Will look for the CJ, too.

I suppose QS can advise about a solid state amp, too. I think that's the combo I'd want.

One additional question occurs -- if down the road, the QS doesn’t seem right for my evolving system, how’s are they to re-sell? Do people want them or are they niche/hard to sell?

If you can do without remote a c-j Classic 2SE is in your price range, this is a seriously good value used....Quicksilver Audio makes 2 preamps in your price range, one is remote the other is not. Quicksilver gear is all point to point wiring. To me this is more important with a tube amp, I have had amps where the circuit trace was damaged when a cathode resistor failed following a tube failure.  P2P is often easier to repair.    Prima Luna is nice sounding gear, dont get me wrong.  I auditioned my speakers on several amps one being a PL el34 but two things turned me off . Made in China and distributed by Kevin Deal.   I couldnt even get that guy to return my call to buy something, and im talking several emails and three conversations with his staff ,what about after sale support?   No thanks.

I think if you are going to buy new you should check out Quicksilver. Its made in usa, point to point wiring, excellent build quality. I have a pair of QS amps and they are awesome, sound great, super reliable.
Three year warranty... I just bought the new QS headphone amp, sight unseen because I know it will be worth every penny.

@decooney Thanks for paying attention to my question. Some answers to yours:

DEALER VISITS: Yes, I’m sharing the specs of my speakers with dealers I visit. So far, I’ve just visited one regarding amplifiers — there, the suggested purchase was Parasound or Prima Luna, because that’s what they carry. The Parasound was nice, but I didn’t like the all-tube PL. I’m not settled yet about tubes because I’ve not heard a hybrid set up. I am trying to stay within $3k for both. Other amps to try with dealers also include Black Ice, Atoll, and Hegel. I can easily get PS Audio stuff mailed to me for a free trial. Same with Schiit. Well, you know about direct sellers, so I’ll stop there.

SUB. Yes. I’ve already purchased a Rel 328 sub to go with any speaker I get. I assume I’ll keep the Salks, but if not, the Rel was a good deal and it can do other jobs if needed.

SETTLED ON AMP. I have not settled on solid state amp — I’ve not settled on anything at all. My plan is to (a) get several speakers first and compare them with the gear I have (which should be sufficient for that purpose) and then (b) make amp comparisons with the selected speaker as the (newly) fixed variable. After that, I’ll (c) do some DAC comparisons (or just freakin’ buy something I can afford). Then, if I’ve become the insane audiophile I think I’m becoming, I’ll subscribe to Exhorbitant Cable Monthly and start that process. ;-)

About the amp, I started another thread about low-sensitivity speakers to see why I should bend over backwards to get an amp for these little speakers. If I change my mind about speakers, that will free me up to re-visit some of the suggestions on this thread that weren't quite aligned with the parameters of my question.

SALK. I have asked Jim Salk via email. Here was the good answer I got from Salk: "I would look for a minimum of about 100 watts for solid state and 30 watts for a tube amp (the more the better in both cases). The reason is that the way these amps clip is different. The solid state amp will be linear until it reaches its maximum output and then clip, becoming overly bright and edgy. As you increase the gain (volume) with a tube amp, it is linear to a point near its maximum output. As you increase it further, it acts somewhat like a compressor and simply limits the maximum output. So it is “soft” clipping as opposed to “hard” clipping. For that reason, you can get by with less wattage with tube amps. People who love tube amps love the liquid-smooth midrange they provide. But they don’t have quite as tight a grip on the bass. If you want tighter bass, then solid state becomes more attractive. The bottom line, then, becomes “what is more important to you...liquid smooth performance or tight bass performance.” Other than that, as long as the basic amp design is good, wattage becomes the most important (since amps are very accurate compared to speakers)."

Finally, Quicksilver comes up often. I appreciate hearing that you also like it. I’m making a note. (I have a huge chart.)

Thanks again for your post.

@hilde45

..."Next step would be to continue the idea that a tube/solid state mix is worth a listen.

...Waiting on my Salk Wow1’s."

------------------------------------

Salk Wow1 speakers? The mini monitor 84db 8ohm 48hz speakers, those?

On the first few pages I was perplexed anyone could recommend a preamp/sensitivity or amplifier for you without first understanding what speakers you are acquiring soon. Now i/we can better understand why you mentioned running a "solid state" amp back end with a tube preamp front end.

IMO: The speakers you run partially dictate what amps you can run to get what you want out of the sound, and the amp(s) chosen will match better (sensitivity wise) with some preamps better than others.

Three Questions:

• When visiting the dealers looking around at different preamps/amps are you sharing the specs of your Wow1 speakers with sales folks helping to make recommendations for amps?

• If truly Wow1s, down to 48hz, are you planning to run them with or without a subwoofer? It’s important to know this up front.

• I ran/tested smaller monitors like Wow1s (84-87db Totem Acoustic) for decades and built a few sets with similar Seas components running 200w/300w mosfet solid state amps. Driver control was key. They need the right room too. Have you settled on the solid state amp first (important)?... then select the preamp after.

Amps:
Honestly, I’d ask Jim Salk first about proper amps for these speakers. They can rain or shine with the right amplifier.

Tube Preamps:
Mike Sanders Quicksilver Linestage (specifically, non-remote version) for $1295 with the right vintage input tubes will put a hurting’ on some of the aforementioned $2500+ preamps. Be careful of cheap circuit board preamps unless you can buy a spare board with the preamp at purchase time. Some mfg builders don’t keep spares later.

On Jim’s site, for Wow1s.
Response +/- 3db **48Hz - 20kHz
Sensitivity 84 dB
Impedance 8 ohms
Amplification 100 watts

Dod

i don’t know which unit you have but you are spot on. I have the 1a/166

If your goal is to try tubes and want a bulletproof piece with unrivaled customer support then see if you can find a Herron. Lights out performer—way better than any of the ARC or Modwright line stages I tried. Not very “tubey” sounding though—just super quiet, very balanced and natural sounding. I’ve had mine for years and have no interest in trying something different.

Used Herron

Thanks, @wig.

Hilde45

Sachs equipment is built to order and occasionally he build a few items for sale and recommend if interested, act now because there is waiting que.

Wig

Thanks, for that ref. Perhaps I need to go above my $3k limit... boy, how these things take off. But if it's not a boat anchor...

Just to follow up - There are a couple of ARC Ref 1 preamps for sale on Agon at right around $3k as well as a Conrad-Johnson Premier 17 LS2 with remote. 

I've heard the ARC Ref 1 and it is terrific, have not heard the Premier 17 but based on the CJ gear I have heard I'd have no hesitation in trying it.  Either would sound terrific and not be the proverbial boat anchor if/when you want to sell it on.

Thanks for chiming in, Don. I was looking for things for sale, and only see 1 unit, here: http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/for%20sale.html

Perhaps there's another website or page I'm missing?

Don Sachs here.  Just a note, the preamp is made in Canada, but shipped from my shipping depot in E. WA, so shipping is the same as any US product.

cheers,
Don

Great point. I know there are used Parasounds at this dealer. P5 and A23. Not sure how outdated they are but they’d save me 1/3rd of the cost, or about 1100.00. If I went that way. 

Dealers often have used gear and demo gear for sale. Always good to see, touch, and hear used equipment prior to purchase. Great way to get more out of one's pocketbook. 

Thanks @naimfan That drive to Ft. Collins would be more fun knowing there’s an audio store at the end of the line!

And I’ll keep in mind the used approach, for sure. Without auditioning things, it’s a bit of leap, but I see there’s high confidence in these suggestions. I do worry about buying something on eBay for $1000 or more because if it doesn't work, what do I do?

@hilde45 -

I second the suggestion of a used ARC or CJ.  Both companies have set the standard at various times in tube preamps, both have been around a LONG time (in hifi terms), both can still service their products.  And they are effectively free if you want to sell them on later and get something different - you're likely to get close to what you paid for them when you resell them (assuming you don't keep them 10+ years, at least!). 

It can be really tempting to chase the unique, new, and exciting - avoid that temptation and you'll most likely be happier in the long run. 

And while it is a drive, a visit to Rick at Audio Alternative in Ft. Collins would be well worth it. 

FYI, I wrote to Kara at deHavilland. She said she was taking a sabbatical from making audio and that I should look for her Ultraverve used, possibly to pair used Conrad Johnson MF 2500. FWIW.

Interesting Subject! Personally I like Atm a-Sphere! Built-in America and Ralph the designer is always great to talk to! His Pre-Amps and Amps have Won multiple awards and the Sound is what I call Musical! A little more money maybe than your budget but I think a better product than the others I heard mentioned! But of course check around!😉

With it’s SE and Balanced inputs and outputs plus fully adjustable gain from 0-25 db the base Chardonnay is flexible enough to be with you for years. To stay close to your total budget you can buy a brand new Odyssey Khartago for $995 and have a great combo. I own the Chardonnay currently and have owned the Khartago and three other Odyssey amps over the years so familiar with both brands together. This combo will put you over your budget by the shipping costs.  Another amp alternative that will save you $100 if you don't need the extra wattage is the Van Alstine SET 120 amp at $899. I haven't heard it but I do own it's big brother the SET 400 and Frank says they are voiced the same.  The Chardonnay and the SET 400 are playing now with my Verity Otello's.

Someone earlier made a comment about amps which would be hard to sell later -- becoming, in essence, expensive doorstops. It raises the question as to what the downside is of getting something relatively boutique-like. I realize that the quality will be there, but the exit door may be blocked if my tastes or needs change down the road. This element may not move people, but I do wonder which of the makers celebrated in these posts might wind up with that problem.

@whitestix The Chardonnay sounds tempting. It’s $2500 or $2000 before $200 shipping. If my budget is $3000 for both pre and power that leaves me at most $800 for a power amp. I guess that could be done. Would you spend in that ratio on a pre/power amp if it was you?

@tvad I hear you. I’ll look at those makers, too. Thanks.

@bigkidz Nice to hear of your experiences. Given the high praise lavished on the deHavilland, it’s interesting that you found so much in it that benefitted from your upgrades. It’s an expensive piece of gear, but I guess everything can use some makeup.

Here is my two cents.  The Primaluna 12AX7 based for $2200 new is a very musical preamp.  The Quick silver is a nice sounding preamp not as tube sounding versus the Prima.  The deHavilland is a good sounding tubish sounding preamp but I have only heard it after I modified the unit with my upgrades for a buddy of mine.  The upgrades included V-Caps, volume control, some tube sockets, transformer (much bigger thatn the junkie stock one, AC filter choke, resistors, and a few other changes.  Those upgrades gave the preamp a much bigger dimension, better detail, made it quieter, and with more space between instruments.  The stock unit to me was nothing special.  Other options would be a Counterpoint SA-3000.  It has phone which is OK for an old preamp. These I can perform upgrades that bring them to a new level.  I also like the SA-3000 for the separate power transformer which helps eliminate noise.  Besides parts upgrades I can upgrade the circuit to today's level and is basically a new preamp.  All of the above are good choices.

Happy Listening.

I absolutely agree with MarktheNut's recommendations for the 6SN7-based tubes amps by Don Sachs or Supratek.  I had Don Sachs original tube preamp and now have his newest version and it is fantastic.  I suspect the Supratek is quite fine too.  Quicksilver makes great tube preamps, as well.  The Schiit Freya, with upgrade tubes, might give you a glimpse of the SQ of the Sachs preamp at far less cost. 

I personally think that there is magic in 6SN7 tubes in preamps.  The new best Chinese 6sn7 tubes are outstanding, rendering my stash of dozens of vintage NOS 6sn7 tubes merely "closet queens."   

Quicksilver

Listening report: GOLD SOUND 2+ hours. Wonderful conversations with Ron Gold the owner, who educated me a lot. This is a great store. (Denver area). I auditioned Prima Luna EVO 400 ($5k) with a CD player and Spendor A4 ($3.5k) speakers. This was my first time listening to a tube amp for an extended period. I then auditioned Parasound P6 and A23+ separates. I did not have the chance to do a separate tube preamp with a solid state power amp. I found the bass in the PL setup to be rather muddy and lacking in articulation. It reached down deep enough, but there were moments of bass-chaos to my ears, too. The highs also sounded rolled off and there was a distinct lack of "crack" on drum hits. Vocals were luscious and the sound stage was delightful. All those deficits were repaired by the Parasound, the sound stage was still great, and while there wasn’t the same soft nuance in the vocals, there were fine. The highs were back.

All in all, I know something now — at least about these two pieces of gear — viz., that all tubes are not fitting my listening expectations. I do suspect a lot of this is because the first time we try something new, we judge based on old expectations rather than on the new benefits. Indeed, I imagine I was *blind* to a lot of the new benefits. I was trying to keep a very open mind about this, too — I didn’t go in expecting that the tubes would do what the solid state had always done. Still, it didn’t provide what I wanted in the kind of music I played — jazz, rock, classical.

Next step would be to continue the idea that a tube/solid state mix is worth a listen.

I do not care for Elac. Nor Spendor that much. The owner is down on Dyns (notoriously difficult to drive), but I still want to hear them again. Waiting on my Salk Wow1’s.