Seriously considering tube preamp…opinions?
Hilde45, the VAC 100/100 tvad is referring to is on Agon now. Combo ad of preamp and amp together. 11 hours left on ad. tvad, I noticed your prior VAC PHI 200 recommendation above (quad of 6SN7) input/drivers and VAC 100/100 with 12AU7s input/driver tubes. Nice gear, I like VAC too, yet never looked under the hood and cannot find photos. Somehow the VAC engineers have been able to make a $45,000 VAC statement sound good with re-issue TungSol 6SN7s, amazing, they sound rounded off and less musical in my Cary preamp. Boutique and vintage NOS sound way better, big$, had to hoard away four quads of vintage 6SN7s, argh. Hats off to VAC designers if they can make re-issue tubes sound good. i.e. now we see amps going to 12AU7s too.. By chance do you know, Is it all 100% point-to-point wiring or any circuit boards under the cover of the VAC amps? |
@russellrcncom 228 posts 02-26-2020 10:27 You can also future-proof yourself by finding a multi-purpose tube preamp that not only mates up well with your solid state amp, and a future tube amp down the road later on. It happens :) |
warmly invite you to consider tracking down and auditioning a pair of Quad ESL speakers. 63s, 988s, 2805/2905, etc. Any of these might require a rebuild (cost about $2000 with shipping) but there is a reason why these are universally well regarded. If I may suggest, no offense, this is where the correct amplification can make or break it for someone - and so can the room you place them in. While I’m a fan of Electrostatics, a buddy of mine stepped up and bought his beloved brand new Quad 2905s to celebrate his retirement and a milestone birthday. Paid good money for them too. Was super excited for him. It all turned out kind of odd for him. The sound stage was odd, nothing really clicked. >>He put them up for resale within the same year as i recall<<. Heard them a few times with some really nice top-shelf preamps, different amps, you name it - they just sounded boring to me and others. Nothing special. What happened? I bet the right amp would have made them sing BUT what I really think happened is they were placed in the wrong size room and position. He was stuck. Got resold. Someone got a great deal. Room was too small, short, odd ceilings. Some speakers just don’t sound right until you put them in a <right-sized> room that makes them shine. Don’t forget the room! The room is the speaker too. |
All brands have issues here or there. Sometimes brand new parts can go bad and humans build them, gets dropped hard in shipping, whatever... things happen. Many get lucky and have no issues for 20+ years too. It’s the dealer and manufacturer support and response is what counts. As @tvad said earlier, I agree it’s not easy to build a great system, and not always on the first try. @hilde45, Going from 0-100mph is not easy or common. Most do start with one component and branch out from there. Ya know, friends and I have built some really great little systems with really good class-a type Monitors in smaller and larger rooms and it sounded fantastic. Don’t discount the smaller speakers too. For many years I used smaller Totem Acoustic Signatures as a reference speaker to compare to when building my own speakers. With the right tube preamp/amp and distance from the wall and not a lot of furniture around, you’d be quite surprised at the results. 20+ years ago we set up a RM-9 tube amp, Audible Illusions Modulus III preamp, + very small Totem Model 1 Signatures with some really good interconnects. AES awarded him a 4th place award and whitepaper write-up from across the US for that little system. The reviewers were shocked how good it sounded and me too. I heard that same system in at least five different rooms with at least 20 different pairs of interconnects too. The final room and setup made all the difference. The speakers were tiny and mighty. It can be done. Maybe go from 0-60 for now, it is an option if you do decide to upgrade speakers later too. Food for thought. |
hilde45 OP211 posts02-28-2020 8:24pm -------- ^^-above-^^ IMO, I’m not so sure I buy 100% in to the comments above regarding good recordings sounding worse with tube amps, added harmonics, etc. And particularly not with higher quality pentode / ultralinear tube amps designed with zero feedback. Just like solid state, not all amps are created equal. hilde45, When you do audition Pass, ask the dealer if you can listen to the INT-60 with 3-4 different types of speakers. Nelson’s amps can truly sound quite different from one speaker to the next. And, some of the higher-efficiency speakers are not as "musical" sounding to me when paired with some of his higher current amplifiers. A good Pass dealer will know what to show you and what pair them up with so you can hear differences. |
@peterf6...Switching tubes makes for fun fine-tuning, and if you find the tubes coloring something, you can switch to passive preamp mode to see (where you’ll usually find the tubes are not coloring!).. Hey peterf6, did your Schiit Freya come with new re-issue Tung Sol 6SN7s, and have you tried other tubes in your unit by chance? Just for grins I’ve wanted to test a Freya with a variety of vintage and boutique 6SN7 tubes I was re-testing again last year in my own preamp. I’ve found a notable difference between various vintage and custom boutique tubes in my current preamp. Long term 6SN7 fan, regardless of rarity - so I just hoard them. :) Would be interesting to see how far a Freya sound could be changed or improved, or not at all. |
@hilde45 hilde45, That's smart to touch base with Jim before deciding on amps, those who design and build speakers typically know what matches up well. The 6Ms appear to be using the nice Satori Berrylium tweeters and Satori Papyrus woofers, a bit lively between 100-1000hz, could sound very musical for you. I was using similar mid-woofer drivers in a few builds a few years back, to achieve a nice balanced and neutral tone. Of course it's in the crossover too but they are decent drivers he's using there. A friend has played with Satori drivers in some affordable speaker builds he felt turned out to be pretty good too. They hit right in the hi-fi value pocket too. >>With a really good preamp/amp or really great integrated amplifier<< I'm sure you'd be pleased with the 6Ms. While I know Jim says a 30w tube amps will work in a 30x30 room, it truly depends on the level of tube amplifier too. See what amp he recommends at 30w first... :) David, If it were me, I would not under-buy on equivalent amplification for these speakers in order to yield their true potential. These could also turn out to be good long-term speakers for you too. |
@decooney I hear you on not under-powering the speakers. Jim didn't say "minimum" of 30 wpc, he thought 30 wpc was comfortable. That said, there's not reason not to do at least 40 or perhaps 60. Above that, I may be doing more future-proofing than necessary, and the whole reason to buy speakers more than double the price -- and remember, they'll be on trial basis -- was to cut the amp costs. If I don't do that, well...Jim knows, and see if you can get him to guide you to an amp. That 30pwc amp will likely be costly due to its quality, not wattage. A really good 30wpc tube amp or really good 25wpc solid state Pass Labs will trounce many others with the same power output. |
@tvad, +1 Yes. Very true, tube amps offering switchable triode / ultralinear is fun. And, flavoring sound using different sounding input/driver tubes (various). In addition some of the better designs permit varied use of different EL34, 6L6*, 6550, KT77, KT88, KT90, KT120s, and some recent designs permitting use of KT150s. Thirdly, changing coupling caps offers other flavors of sound. Very tunable to taste once learning some of the signatures from different tubes. Best to have friends with similar tube amps to loan/compare tubes. Super tunable to taste - great flexibility. With solid state pre/amplification, pretty much locked in (take it as-is) excluding maybe playing around with different interconnects in an attempt to passive EQ the sound -OR- this is when the speaker-change rollercoaster ensues. It’s also a benefit with SS, fewer options keeps one away from the very tempting tube rolling rollercoaster with tube amps. |
Or, option-B, buy the EAR 834 integrated amplifier and be done, keeping budget in mind. Example: This 834 integrated sold right here on Agon for $1795 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-ear-834-integrated-amplifier-2017-03-11-integrateds-63112-sai... |
@markusthenaimnut Which Coda amp, most are big $$$? The trade-in Coda TS in Sac at the factory listed on fleabay has been stuck at $3,700 for a long time, past year. Another "under the radar" Co in the US, but known around the world. Do you know of any other Coda amps for sale for less - if so private message hilde45 and me too :) I live and work 10 min from Coda. Can go check it out for ya if you like :) Pass Labs, QuickSilver, Coda, all within 10-45 minutes from me. I test different amps with my custom speakers. |
------------------------------------------------ This one? :) If so, some serious grunt for electrostatic loudspeakers. Potential to likely grenade the small-driver Salk speakers hilde45 is looking at. Quote, re: InnerSound Electrostatic Amplifier ("ESL amp") "massive output stage. Each output transistor is capable of delivering 250 watts -- and there are eighteen of these per channel. As a result, it can deliver a staggering 135 amps of current with a combined power rating of 4,500 watts per channel!". |
@markusthenaimnut Sure would love to hear the setup if you are running the electrostatic speakers to go along with that truly unique ESL amp you have there. Very cool. Like some people are with tube amps, the same goes for me with hybrid electrostatic speakers and what they will run them with - very particular. Some of the fastest and most amazing midrange. Been having fun listening to Soundlab speakers and Eminent Technology speakers lately at my local dealer. They use the same QS Mono 120s I use to drive them. The added power increases soundstage and weight of the presentation for sure. Proper Matching: And it brings up a great point for hilde45 again. Matching the speakers to the proper type/power of amplification sure helps, a lot. A local friend just completely restored some 1957 Quad ESL speakers, trying different amplifiers with them and hearing varying differences. Can’t wait to hear them and the great midrange they produce. :) |
@hilde45 Seems like a worthy step-up on efficiency from the 84db Wow1s to the 90db SS 6Ms, opens up a few more amplification options for sure. While we bounced all over the place on your post, you got a lot of feedback and options to try. One last note for your upcoming demos. re: Demo (burn-in) - Be sure to ask if it's brand new or true burned-in demo amp(s) you'll be receiving. You'd effectively be demoing new (un-broken-in) Salk speakers and maybe new 0-hr amps too (correct?). Some speakers and some amps taking hundreds of hours to settle in. Maybe ask the providers. Good luck on the upcoming amplification demos! |
@schubert 6,176 posts I’m not a classical music nut, and it’s totally worth it to me. Did solid state for 35 years, Class-A, was very nice, still fatiguing at times during long-term listening sessions. Then, found good tubes, good tube amps that don’t burn tubes down, with added dynamics, no listener fatigue, way more engaging, 3D sound, musical. Two colleagues, now adding tubes and tube DACs in recording studios and mastering. Finding good tubes is key. |
And, you can bring 4 people in the room with 4 different setups and each one can like something completely different. We hear differently too. Funny, went to a high end audio show a few years ago. In this one room.., a top brass amp manufacturer, paired with a well known speaker manufacturer we all know. Together it sounded absolutely horrible. To each his own. Walked outta there like WTF? |
@tvad tvad, It appears you may be referring to vintage tubes I gather. That’s what i use, and... also some new tubes too with great success. By chance have you tried any of the latest version new production input tubes such as Sophia Blue, or PSVANE MKII, Shuguang Black Treasures, or former TJ Full Music, JJ gold pin Frame Grid tubes - in any of your preamps or for amp input tubes? |
@hilde45 ------------------------------------ Salk Wow1 speakers? The mini monitor 84db 8ohm 48hz speakers, those? On the first few pages I was perplexed anyone could recommend a preamp/sensitivity or amplifier for you without first understanding what speakers you are acquiring soon. Now i/we can better understand why you mentioned running a "solid state" amp back end with a tube preamp front end. IMO: The speakers you run partially dictate what amps you can run to get what you want out of the sound, and the amp(s) chosen will match better (sensitivity wise) with some preamps better than others. Three Questions:
Honestly, I’d ask Jim Salk first about proper amps for these speakers. They can rain or shine with the right amplifier. Tube Preamps: Mike Sanders Quicksilver Linestage (specifically, non-remote version) for $1295 with the right vintage input tubes will put a hurting’ on some of the aforementioned $2500+ preamps. Be careful of cheap circuit board preamps unless you can buy a spare board with the preamp at purchase time. Some mfg builders don’t keep spares later. On Jim’s site, for Wow1s. Response +/- 3db **48Hz - 20kHz Sensitivity 84 dB Impedance 8 ohms Amplification 100 watts |
@hilde45, Sent you a message. If I were in your shoes, you might want to decide first if you want a solid state or tube back end amplifier. There are not too many really good SS amps that "sort of, partially" emulate tube sound, many have tried, and they are big $, well outside of your budget of $3k total for pre+amp. |
@hilde45 "I do like the tight, punch, crispness of solid state". One other angle to throw at ya...MA252. It’s possible a hybrid tube/solid state integrated amplifier could ALSO be right up your alley vs. separates. It helps with other savings too. Disclaimer: While I’m not a McIntosh or Parsaound or Primaluna fan boy, it seems the latest generation of these integrated amps are sort of targeting what you are asking for, essentially. "Crisp", I don’t know, that’s your ears and taste to decide. Mc is not known for crisp, old or new. Might be too plush for ya yet. But, perhaps a closer look for a quick listen. While I’ve never heard one of THESE personally and have a few friends with Audio Note 300B amps and such, some of them like this MA252 unit for more round-the-clock use in alternate systems or den room systems. Makes good sense for a consolidated 1st system approach too. Heck who knows, a primary system winner for some! Maybe test your ears again and go listen to one of these and see if it’s more (1/2 way) between where you want to be. You avoid the cost of costly interconnects, all in one, tube front end, solid state back end. It’s more than a trend developing, some value to it as well. Example#1: https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/integrated-amplifiers/MA252 MA252 Two-Channel Integrated Amplifier
Quote: "The McIntosh MA252 offers an alluring combination of tube romanticism and solid-state resolution and authority... The ability to connect the listener to the music makes this tube-solid state integrated a special component by any standard. I could happily listen to the MA252 for a long, long time." - PTA .. |
....@tvad Agree with tvad on these two. While these are above @hilde45s stated budget, I messaged him the same kind of referral last night about the 30.8 and INT-60 and a few of the Firstwatt amps if he decides to go with solid state instead of tube components. It’s been interesting watching how hard Nelson works to make his circuits and solid state gear sound like tube. Today we see Nelson’s NuTube DIY preamp. Now all we need is a DIY NuTube amplifier by Nelson to make it one step closer to an "all tube" equation. Hehe. :) |
hilde45, Good for you for taking notes with some patience. It will pay off to listen to different combinations and take your time comparing. Looking at the dealer and list of gear they offer, will be very educational for you. Yes, sure, you can do the hybrid approach with a tube preamp and solid state amplifier, in most cases you’ll still hear a TWO dimensional sound stage. It can sound really smooth, musical, but not 3D. Remove the <average> solid state amp (within your budget), and replace it with an appropriately matched tube amplifier (within your budget) to your speakers and you’ll hear a THREE dimensional sound stage - then it will click. It’s like reading about what car to buy, nobody really knows until they go and test drive them and compare. Listen closely, pun intended :) |
@tvad Agree. And, also important particularly with low power tube amps. Speaking of impedance, there are instances of folks I've come across running very low efficiency speakers (low as 82db @1w/1m) with high impedance 8-16ohms (not 4 ohms), and yet those speakers can still work fairly well with with low power tube amps. Or, as long as the related 8ohm and 16ohm speaker taps are available on the amp. |
@mesch Using a Jolida Fusion tube pre into a BEL 1001 MK5 SS amp presents a very holographic soundstage in my ~15x12’ room. Maybe. However, as you likely well know, your BEL is one of (few, more rare) and exceptional older SS amps that does provide unique sound and soundstage. It would take a really good tube amp to dethrone your amp (an average tube amp won’t cut it IMO), which is higher power of course. With the right 6SN7 preamp and your BEL, you’ll be in bliss. I was in the same boat as you, with a higher power 200w SS amp until I went back to tube monos. FYI: I ran a similar combo to yours in a prior configuration (tube pre / SS amp), and still have my 6SN7 based preamp. Absolutely love it, and yes, the right preamp will dethrone older Jolidas, handily, unless it has all 5-levels of upgrades which makes it a decent unit - but not as good (IMO) as a super nice 6SN7 based point-to-point preamp. A buddy has one, and the factory modded that Jolida until there was nothing left to do. In my rig I went head-to-head side-by-side comparing for a solid year and finally went back to mono tube amps. Again, your BEL is a bit of an exception. I was messing around with similar demos/approaches with Pass amps, before going back to tube amps. While 6SN7 tube preamps can sound nice, and I like mine a lot spent several years messing around to find really good 6SN7 tubes both NOS and new. I can goof up the sound of my preamp by installing lower-cost and more common new re-issue russian or chinese 6SN7s. Not all 6SN7 tubes are created equal, this is for certain! This is why you see Mike Sanders (Quicksilver) and others now using (lower cost / more available / quiet) 12AT7 tubes in their preamps. He’s thinking of the consumer, his customers! I ended up with some boutique 6SN7s and it paid off, but it was a journey to get there. When you get your 6SN7 tube preamp, if you don’t buy some new/re-issue tubes, check out the "Sophia Electric Blue Glass 6SN7 Tubes". Not inexpensive, but...can be a game changer IF you do not buy NOS/vintage black plates or something. A buddy has the Sophia Blues and apparently for him they "best some of his very near and dear vintage 6SN7s" he’s tried over many years, and he has a lot of tubes. The key i found in a good 6SN7 preamp is getting the right tubes (with decent coupling caps too) Or, finding the right preamp where the designer truly KNOWS how to build the circuit to best utilize the new/re-issue 6SN7 tubes - very few seem to know how to do it well or at least to make it worth buying a 6SN7 based pre. All said, this is what makes the Mike Sanders Quicksilver Linestage (non-remote) version tube preamp a real bargain. He thinks of the consumer, and value. .. |
@ferrox----------------------------------------------------------------------- ferrox, Agree with your "noise" considerations, x 11 tubes. Worth noting for sure. Good point. Last week I had a few email exchanges with Ralph at Atma-sphere, nice people. Never heard their gear, a local dealer almost carried them a while back. Was interested in hearing them beyond an engineering discussion. I reached out to them merely trying to understand the design and reasoning - it would seem like potential for added noise due to sheer quantity. Also asked if they could build a nice amp with half the tubes to gain perspective. Love the look of their very industrial looking tube amps, nice point-to-point under the good. However, correct me where I’m off but it kinda seems like they are into "more is better" logic though, good grief, why so many tubes to accomplish a fairly simple preamp function - Your thoughts? MP-3 Tube complement (11 tubes)?: 7 x 12AT7 2 x 6SN7GT 2 x 12AU7 |
@mesch Yes, and key question. Not sure which Jolida preamp you have, BUT, have you reached out to them for their I-V upgrades they do? For example, five levels of upgrades to make the preamp sound notably better. My buddy just got all five upgrades (went from upgrade level 2 to level 5) on his Jolida 801 integrated amp, and with all new tubes. Big change. Circuit boards or not, It went from $1000 tube amp sound to $5000 tube amp sound. Replacing low-cost low-grade caps, resistors, and upgraded wiring with really good NOS tubes can help a lot. Again, this is what makes really good point-to-point preamps with really good designs and decent parts, and decent stock tubes, great bargain right out of the gate, in comparison, fwiw. To give you an idea, from the current Jolida Upgrades page (for fusion): ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Clip: Fusion Preamp Upgrade I: Replacement of 13 capacitors with Clarity Cap ESAs. Gold pin 12AX7 tubes. Fusion Preamp Upgrade lI: Fusion Preamp Upgrade III: Addition of the ByBee Rail. Reduces the noise floor by 45dB. Fusion Preamp Upgrade IV: Using extreme purity cast wire. All internal signal wire and power wire is installed. Involves 70 feet of ultra copper cast wire and rewiring the complete unit. Fusion Preamp Upgrade V: Combination of 8 pieces of Ultra premium copper foil paper in oil Ride or Audyn Capacitors combined with Clarity Poly caps. |
@decooney Thanks for your perspective regarding my system. My BEL amp was manufactured in 2007 so it has a few years let in it prior to needing a refresh. Not sure what I would replace it with, possibly a Pass XA25. Looking forward to playing with the Aric preamp. I am using a Audio Mirror Tubadour DAC III which provides a great soundstage. I will look into the 6sn7 tubes you suggested. Comparing your SS to SS: Yes, the Pass XA25 is nice, would likely be my choice for $ IF I ever went back to SS amps and a smaller room. A buddy who bought my former modded Cary V12R went back and forth several times with the XA25, liked both, but the larger tube V12R with 50wpc Triode / 100wpc ultra linear one his heart over, XA25 got returned. I sold that lovely V12R to try the QS 120 Monos for some larger custom speakers - 2x the transformer foot print too. The QS Mono 120s closed the gap on power, added dynamics for my larger 92.5db speakers. Had to change inputs to NOS tubes to make it a more fair comparison. Much closer to the big Cary now. Deciding on caps now to make it a fair competition. re: SS, yes, I still look at Nelson’s Monoblocks mainly because I grew up in Pass Land and admire his work, worked at the same speaker Co too :) when I was younger. He truly gets "soundstage", kinda like your BEL has. For your own comparison IF you need to compare for power and dynamics (compared to your BEL), in all fairness maybe something like the Pass 60.8 monos or 100.8 amp to be fair. Your BEL is no slouch on grunt at 200wpc, right? Yes, XA25 is nice, but not 200wpc like the BEL. It’s all speaker dependent. Now XA25 with the right Harbeths could be nice too :). I continue to admire how Nelson works very hard to make SS sound like tube! (i.e. lower power Firstwatt SIT-3), Pass XA25, etc. QS Linestage Pre vs remote version: Clarification (Quicksilver LineStage Preamp, non-remote version) is a "value" not only because it’s less cost, MANY will argue its the more purest preamp because it "sounds better" "more musical" than the QS remote control version preamplifier (different design, different volume control). Side by side many say the lower cost Linestage is the ticket for sound, and you are only dealing with TWO tubes, makes vintage NOS upgrades low cost, easy, less noise! Most cave and go for the more exp remote version. I ended up keeping my former Cary Audio 6SN7 preamp now paired with the Quicksilver Mono 120s and it’s very very nice. Love it, actually. Pairing Brand-A with Brand-B can be done but it’s always a gamble til you actually try it. |
+1, what tvad said. Agree. -------------------------------------------- David, Reading above you went for a nice dinner and got served an appetizer and the restaurant stopped serving, chef went home, servers started cleaning up and turned off the open sign. Missed the real Entree and the Desert. :) Heads up on the "we’ll only tell you about the... "what we have in stock sales person". Of course they could only show you what they had, but did they make much reference to what they could order too, a clue. The QS Linestage paired with QS Mid Monos or Mono 60s was the ticket for 86-92db speakers. Mono 120s for harder to drive speakers. The little QS Integrated is nice for lower power more efficient speakers at 20wpc. Unfair comparison other than to learn what a musical amp can sound like. I run the QS Mono 120s for my 93db speakers and it’s a great match. Your Salk Wow1s are 84db, right? (it always starts with the speakers...). This is where QS Monos start to shine to compete with good SS amps with regard to dynamics, driver control. The Rogue recommendation is what they had in stock, different sound, in your budget. Might be your ticket for the $ excluding comparison to QS Linestage + Mid Monos (you did not hear it yet :), unfair to compare to the the little musical integrated (amazing btw), only when paired with the right efficiency speakers. Same situation. I find QS Monos are rarely in stock at dealers, usually sold before they get there. Gotta ask the dealer to order/hold them in all fairness. Back to square-1. :) Once you hear a really nice (power equivalent) tube amp to speaker match, you’ll gain much better insight. Patience and persistence can pay off in this instance until you get a chance to really "hear" it. :) |
@hilde45, @decooney Thanks for the explanation about the non-remote QS. Noted for future reference. Also, they DO have the Quicksilver Mid Mono Amp. Maybe I just suck it up and get QS separates? That would work with any speakers, right? Key Question (speakers): Well, back to square-1 questions. Are you 100% settled on Salk Wow1s, done, and ordered? Its not an issue, need to know for sure to help more. Personally, in that situation and (IF) you go with Quicksilver, I'd recommend going with the QS Mono 60s (vs Mid Monos) so you have a future-proof upgrade path for larger speakers later. It might happen. I like the QS Mid Monos (partial triode) but they need to be matched with the right speakers, say above 90db. 84db from Salk Wow1s might be better served with QS Mono 60s or Mono 120s, amps alone being beyond your started $3,000 budget. Back to speakers question above. INITIAL COST vs. Amortized cost over a long term: If you buy the right preamp and amplifier (right from the get-go) - (tube or ss), amortize that initial cost over 10-20 years vs. a five year purchase buying a lesser amp you'll upgrade again in 5 years anyhow. Return on investment also has to do with longevity too, avoiding upgradeitis later. It's not just about the initial purchase price. I ran my last SS amps for 20 years, loved them. Very nice, but not tube though. |
To: @hilde45 You CAN get great sound of your 84db Salk Wow1s If you bought them already. :) Those or most Dynaudio speakers will require some grunt. Looking at 20w integrated amps gives ideas on tube/tone, but not what is needed to get the most out of your Wow1s. Matching is everything. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No need to "chill", research is what got you here. However, just be aware underbuying now MIGHT cost you more IF you choose to upgrade again later (speakers or preamps or amps). Good 2nd hand gear is an option too, but you lose "warranty" in most cases. Gotta know what to buy, and buying 1-2 year old gear that someone overlooked is one angle. Other Options to buy "up": I see people buy (and immediately resale) decent solid state and tube gear and resale in 60 days or less because they 1) don’t burn in tubes, don’t burn in coupling caps, -or- allow the really good SS amp burn in over 300hrs; or simply listen to gear cold (premature judgements) in less than 45 minutes warmup, 2) often use cheap so called "budget" interconnect cables between components that veil over or filter the sound vs. let it through... 3) use oddball preamp and amp combos with mismatched in/out voltage 4) poorly matched speakers for a particular amplifier application, 5) get off track with misinformation. Something to be said for a good preamplier and amplifier that is designed to work together, right from the designer. This is partly why some folks just go with integrated amplifiers if they are not sure what to do. That’s why I felt the Pass INT-60 might also be an option for you, IF you do not go all-tube preamp and amp. |
But the INT60 is 60 watts, right? And Jim Salk said 100 watts minimum, right? I suspect the answer for this Pass Labs stuff is going to be in the "not all watts are the same" category — right? Without getting into too far into the weeds, "Yes". And, once you’ve heard a really great SS amplifier circuit design with larger super-high-quality transformers and capacitors, blah blah, you’ll be amazed how LOUD and FULL it sounds only playing 1.5 to 2.0 watts. A few local mentors showed me long ago why they say "it all starts with the transformers", and why I needed to come over to the tube side too. The truth is, I like both, really great tube amps and really great SS amps, but they are big $. With Nelson, it seems to be his tenacity to explore different circuits, transistors, great transformers and good parts inside for amazing results. He started as a speaker guy ya know... where my roots came from too. BUT, matching the right speakers with his amps is key too - and it can vary between the ".5" and latest ".8" version amps. I’ve heard his amps with super popular (unmentioned) high efficiency speakers (normally used with low power tube amps) that truly sounded horrible, like really bad, at an audio show mind you. Was floored how bad it sounded with poor speaker matching. I bet the INT60 would whip those Wow1s right into confirmation, and much larger speakers too - but follow what @tvad said, ask Mark at Reno HiFi. I would love to run up to Pass (35 minutes away) and see about demoing an INT60 myself later after summer just to do it and compare it with my own custom speakers and my 120w mono tube amps. The only reason I have not is I don’t want to walk out of there with a pair of XA-100.8 mono amps and be hooked. Don’t need it and can’t afford it. Best to stay the heXX away from there. Caution! :) |
@hilde45 OP175 posts02-23-2020 2:10pm@decooney Good to know. The match I’ll need advice on, if I go this way. You’re tempted by the Pass? Wouldn’t that be abandoning tubes? Hmmm. Probably should stick with one god if you’re a monotheist. For less money, 1/2 the price, I’ve been able to get amazing 3-dimensional, lush, dynamic (engaging) sound out of very simple design mono tube amps with the right transformers, designed to run KT150 output tubes. Before and after Mosfet SS amps, I was an EL34 tube midrange freak. Now with current KT150 tubes (in the right amp/circuit design) changed the game for me to stay "tube". IMO: those who just put KT150 tubes in a KT88 based amps don’t compare. My amps mainly run KT150s, designed just for KT150s. When biased correctly, all the sudden my Pentode tubes sound like Triode sound with power and dynamics I prefer. The designer is really on to something. Once I added vintage mid 1960s NOS triode Mullard input and driver tubes I was sold, done, game over! The result is quite astonishing and works well with my particular speakers. Again, "matching". As to your question: For equivalent solid state amplification "that sound like tube" (for the appropriate speaker/power/impedance i need) I’ve confirmed I’d actually spend 2.5x on the amps alone. Typically I build everything myself, yet in this case and (abilities of my own) I truly respect and recognize the mastermind amplifier gurus who offer something you just gotta buy and enjoy it as is, made by locals in the good old USA. :) |
+1 gotvinyl There are two AI version "3.0" units on auction right now at $1200-1300. A dear friend had one for many years. I always liked that preamp, 6DJ8 tube based too. Quality chassis, nice smooth volume control. Had a pretty dark background too as I recall. He ran it with a Roger Majesty RM-9 EL34 tube based amp and Shearwater Hot Rod speakers. Nice smooth tone, non-fatiguing, listened to it many times. He went through a few versions of different tube preamps to get to that one in the "3" version. Very Nice! |
@hilde45, A few reasons some of us were noting the Pass INT-60, is you were: -suggesting less efficient (84db) speakers, a bit more required to drive them. -you seemed to be leaning back to solid state vs. tube amplification. -uncertain about matching preamps (where this started); complexity. -your suggestion of posible upgrade to larger Dyn speakers, later on. -possibly wanting to future-proof your system, avoiding upgrades later. -us knowing there are used 2nd hand INT-60s out there for decent deals. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Decide: #1, Speakers: what speakers you’ll be using next 5 yrs, try to pin it down (changes a lot). #2, Amps: decide if you like softer tube or SS sound (they are different). #3, Budget: confirm if your original $3k limit is still a real goal or not (it matters, a lot). Sources: Since you have not committed yet to working with any particular dealer, your options are wide open right now new or used. There are many good dealers who offer new/used. Yes, I agree with tvad, RenoHiFi is one source. Fyi, you can achieve great sound close to your original $3k goal with (some new or 2nd hand) tube separates and integrateds out there. Several options exist. QS is a no brainer, super value, real tube sound (in your budget range). Now with SS, to achieve real "tube like sound", options are more limited and price goes up again, 2x of your $ goal. AND if you want something new, closer to new, with warranty. Few offer SS that sound closer to tube, already discussed. Pass is a no brainer. Firstwatt, offers less power - speaker matching is key there, as tvad said. Agree, back to square one - figure out your speakers first, go from there. |
@mesch 1,987 posts 02-24-2020 6:45am@decooney I have the Jolida Fusion preamp and have looked up, and followed up with a talk with Mike Allen of Jolida about the possible upgrades. I decided that for the cost, and my desire to go a more simpler, point to point 6sn7 design, looking for that type pre and selling my Jolida was the best approach. ------------------- Ah, yes, the allure of a 6SN7 based preamp. I sure like mine. :) But, good 6SN7s are not cheap, as you know. re: Hilde45 ("digital sources"), really good to know. >>THIS<< reason alone is what drove me away from Solid State again back to an all tube based system again: 1) Ladder Tube DAC, 2) Tube Preamp, 3) Tube Amplification, + 4) Good 1960s vintage input/driver tubes 5) Great OCC copper interconnects (not silver) All really helped my system, ridding of all digital grain, no more edge, nice and smooth and lush with absolutely no fatigue. Easy listening to lossless content, back to real music again :) |
@mesch 1,990 posts 02-24-2020 7:38am@decooney Yes, I love my Audio Mirror Tubadour DAC. Getting the Aric Pre today, on the Fedex truck heading this way. Likely one day will have to replace the BEL. Getting a replacement that provides what it does will be tough. Currently looking into the Pass XA25.Also Reno HiFi. No hurry yet. Have always considered the BEL to be the strongest link in my system. The Tubadour DAC provides appreciation for the source. Soundstage and bloom. On a stricter budget i would consider one of the MDHT DACs. If you like the sound of the BEL (many do, nice), and it works well with your Aric Pre and the non-oversampling Tubadour DAC, can't help but think you have a nice combo there. You could replace the main caps in your amp (if/when needed) go through it, try some nice vintage tubes in the DAC, ya never know might be well set for a while! There are a few amps I wish I had kept, yet trying something else is fun too :) |
