I just wanted to take a quick moment to say "THANK YOU" to everyone for all of your help by sharing your thoughts, experiences, and guidance with me as I tried to decipher which direction to go and which steps to take in the effort of improving the digital side of my music system. I wanted to give a quick update as to where I am currently at.
I had a busy day yesterday ! I was able to purchase an Acoustic Zen Absolute Copper 75 Ohm RCA 1.5 meter digital cable. I then went on to purchased a new LTA Aero Dac from Nicholas at LTA! I will start out utilizing my vintage Rotel 955AX CD Player as the transport - Acoustic Zen Absolute Copper via the Coax output into the Aero Dac.
It is my hope that I will hear a tremendous improvement of sound via the Aero Dac over that of the Rotel’s internal multibit dac. If the Rotel proves to be sufficient, then over time, I will continue to save more money to put towards a high end streamer. If the Rotel isn’t allowing the Aero to shine, then I think I will investigate a better dedicated transport to replace the Rotel; and then do the streamer down the road further.
I would also like to take a quick moment to say that Nicholas from LTA is a true gentleman! I had a very nice email string with him. He replied to each of my emails within minutes! He was very nice and answered all of my questions and was extremely helpful to me. It was a true pleasure corresponding with him and he really made me feel appreciated and valued.
A company may have a great product, but if it is without having people who truly care about their customers... then it kinda falls flat with me. I can honestly say that Nicholas at LTA, truly cares about his customers and has a passion for what they are doing. That right there pushed me over the top to want to buy the LTA Aero! I can’t wait to receive it and install it into my system to hear what it can do!
Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this forum thread. This is a great community to be associated with 
Best wishes to you all,
Don
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They aren’t mutually exclusive technologies. You can enjoy your CD collection and stream simultaneously
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@no_regrets and others with smaller cd collections. Why would you bother with top flight cd player with so few cd's! I have well over 3k cd's, ripped them all to hard drive, this great option to add to streaming.
As for cd mechanisms, got burned on a proprietary Phillips pro drive in Mark Levinson some years ago, reinforced my decision to go streaming well over ten years ago. Streaming and rips superiority to playing cd's off the map, I've discovered music I'd never have discovered and/or be able to purchase via cd or vinyl. Finally, streaming/rips sound quality doesn't have to take a back seat to physical media.
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Yes, Aurender has an app for the Mac Pro. So you can use it to control the streamer.
I would recommend going with the transport you have vs buying something and setting back the date further of getting a good quality streamer. Life is too short. Although this comes from me… a 72 year old.
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Mahler123 very good informative advice.Youvare spot on.
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If you are going to explore streaming, and are new to it, you might not want to spend a lot initially on an expensive streamer such as Aurender, because some people just don’t get into it. Streamers are networking computers , gussied up to look like audio components. They are subject to the the same foibles that networking computers have. So for example if you have ever had a printer go offline on you, when you didn’t do a darn thing to cause it, and been driven mad until you resolved it, there may be some of that in streaming. Frequently software updates by either the streaming service (Spotify, Qobuz, etc) or by the streamer manufacturer, or even your internet provider, may cause incompatibility issues, and the various companies will point fingers at each other and leave you in the lurch.
I mention these issues, OP, because you have stated you don’t feel comfortable with IT issues. I’m not particularly IT fluent, but I’ve been streaming for years. I generally have been able to navigate the frequent problems, but in one case I ultimately sold off an expensive streamer, a Bryston, because it was so buggy and because it’s software program was basically unusable. If you love CDs, it’s really hard to beat plug and play. And while there are endless debates here about which sounds better, equivalent price level CDPs and streamers sound about the same in quality.
If you are using an external DAC, I would stream initially with your MacBook. You can load the service on the computer and see how you like streaming. If you love streaming I would still upgrade the CDP and then do it all.
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Hello, Don. I was referring to the Esoteric K series in saying that they use the VRDS mechanism. The VSOP was an older Teac/Esoteric OEM mechanism.
If you are buying secondhand, it will be a non SE version of the K series as the SE has only just been launched.
But any K series Esoteric machine will sound a lot more refined and "analogue" than an older Naim player.
Unfortunately, I haven't heard the Emm labs machine so I can't compare.
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Don the Marantz Ruby will just do fine in your nice system. I just check your system.But if you want more the Marantz SA 10 is the way to go. If you decided to get one of this player the laser assembly is only $51.Get one right away because later they disappear.its good to always have a back up.
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@ghdprentice
Ha ha, yes I know... it’s almost unfathomable that my wife and I do not have an iPad  I’m so technology challenged that I am actually quite embarressed. I thought I was doing pretty good by at least having an iPhone and a MacBook Pro, lol. Could I use the MacBook Pro to control the Aurender once I get around to getting the streamer?
I don’t think I want to make things too complicated, so I don’t think I would want to use the MacBook Pro to stream to the dac. I think I would put the streaming on hold until I can afford to also purchase the Aurender.
So this would leave me with too options....
1. Use my old Rotel 955AX cd player as a transport into a very nice dac (TBD yet) while saving for a very nice Aurender to eventually stream music. However, my concern is that using my old and cheap Rotel as a transport, I won’t reap the sonic benefits of having the very nice dac... at least not until I am finally able to purchase the Aurender streamer.
2. Buy a very nice all in one SACD/CD player of the likes of EMM, Playback Designs, Esoteric, etc. Then at some point into the future when I can afford to purchase a very nice Aurender... run that into the dac section of the SACD/CD player. I’m thinking that way I would have really great sound right off the bat for playing my existing CD’s and maybe pick up the occasional SACD’s as well as have great sound in the future when I can get the streamer?
I guess I don’t really know how much importance the transport would play in the sound reproduction. My hunch is that it has an important role. Much like that of the which the turntable does in a vinyl rig.
Would anyone have any thoughts to share?
Yes, I also agree that I want a very musical sounding dac section/player. Before I had my strokes, I played my cello in classical venues and my tenor and bass trombones in jazz venues. If I wasn't performing, I was still attending live acoustical music events a few nights a week, so I am very much interested in musical sound vs the overly hyper detailed/etched type of sound.
I have a dealer about 1.5 hours away from me that has all of the top Audio Research gear and when paired with the right source and speakers, it certainly does sound very nice
Best wishes,
Don
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@yoyoyaya I appreciate your post! I very well could be wrong about which transport it uses. I was solely going off of what I had read in the various reviews of the EMM Labs XDS1 SACD/CD player where I had read it uses Esoteric’s VOSP vertically-aligned optical stability platform. As it is mentioned in 6moons Audio https://6moons.com/audioreviews/emm/1.html ; in the Enjoy the Music review https://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0410/emm_labs_xds1.htm; on the Audio Aficionado forum https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=42683 ; as well as on other forums. Someone could have gotten it all wrong and all the others may just be parroting that mis-information for all I know. I'll also freely admit that I am very ignorant when it comes to all things digital.
I have read amazing things about the Esoteric K03-XD SE! If I remember correctly, there are people who actually prefer the sound of that player over that of Esoteric's more costly models... which is very high praise indeed  .
As I had mentioned earlier, I am in the very beginning stages of trying to decide which route to go down and I am keeping a very open mind with all of this... so I truly appreciate yours and everyone's advice and willingness to share your thoughts, experiences and guidance with me.
I would love to be able to hear the EMM XDS1 v2 or the Esoteric K03-XD SE in my system! However, seeing as I would be buying used, I don't know how I could manage to do that without buying both and then selling off one or the other. Sadly, I don't know that I would be able to do that.
Have you been able to compare the K03-XD SE with other players side by side in your system? If yes, I'd love to hear your thoughts about the comparisons that you have been able to experience.
Best wishes,
Don
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@OP Sorry to be pedantic, but the Esoteric mechanism you are referring to is the VRDS not VSOP - which is a cognac designation.
Around the time (or slightly before) when Esoteric replaced the VRDS with the Atlas, they stopped supplying transports on an OEM basis.
I was looking at your system and you might be surprised at how an Esoteric K03-XD SE sounds compared to your Naim CD player and Linn LP12.
I could suggest what the differences might be but you should listen for yourself.
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Don,
You can use a phone to control your streamer if you don’t have an IPad. But, wow… not owning an iPad I can’t fathom that, we have about seven and most get hours of use a day. But that is a different story. Start with using your phone.
Getting a high end DAC as a starting place. Great idea. You can use your old transport, and for that matter you can use your MacBook as a streamer. With a really good DAC that will sound very good. It’s not going to compete with your analog rig, but it should sound very good. Lots of discussion here about using PCs because they can sound good and folks start claiming (without experiencing) you don’t need a streamer… after all there is a PC processor in it… until they experience one (or one in a good system), then jaw drop and they switch sides. I was reluctant at first (although not vocal) until I bought my first one… and that was the end of me ever using a PC.
On DACs… like analog… there are some detail scraping ones that will get you incredible detail an unnatural sound. You want a high end audio DAC that is natural and musical… if it is a high end one that is well reviewed as musical, it will have the detail. I really love my Audio Research Reference 9, very musical and natural. Used I am sure you can find at $5K
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no_regrets
You cannot go wrong with Esoteric, EMM Labs nor Playback Design for CD/SACD needs.
Happy Listening!
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@jafant My original thoughts were to buy a very nice SACD/CD one box player. I was considering something along the lines of the EMM Labs XDS1 v2 or XDS1v3 or a Playback Designs model. Both of which, if I recall correctly utilize Esoteric's VSOP drive mechanism. If I am not mistaken, Esoteric will no longer sell these drives to other manufacturers or to consumers. They will only use them in Esoteric gear.
I'm still trying to decide what will be the best route for me to follow. Analog is my first love for the recorded medium and I will not be giving that up. I have a lot of money invested in the analog set up and vinyl records; and to my ears it sounds amazing. I am investigating the digital side of things as I am aware it has come a long ways over the years and I am discovering that there is a lot of great music that I am missing out on that is not available on vinyl.
Best wishes,
Don
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@ghdprentice Thank you again for the excellent run down on how the streamer works, etc! Could I use my MacBookPro as the "remote" to run the Aurender streamer instead of an iPad? ( I'm just hoping to not have to spend money on yet another item, lol.)
I'm just in the very early stages of considering jumping into the digital side of things. Originally, my thought was to buy a used high end SACD/CD one box unit. Thinking that I could get better sound out of the admittedly small 100+ cd collection that I currently have and then also to start collecting SACD's.
Now, hearing that streaming with an excellent streamer can gain me access to SACD quality sound on 1000's of titles for roughly $15/mth sounds very appealing to me. As also the added bonus of not having to worry about a laser/transport mechanism failing and having the fear of it not being able to be replaced.
So, now knowing that to get the better sound that I would desire, I should plan on budgeting equal amounts of money on both the streamer and the dac; I wonder about this the following as a possible scenario...
Instead of buying a used high end SACD/CD one box player; what if I would use my ancient Rotel 955AX cd player that uses the TDA1541A multi-bit dac that I've had for decades (which still amazingly somehow plays without skipping) as a cd transport via coax into a very nice dac (which I would still have to buy), allowing me to play my current cd's while saving up for a very nice Aurender streamer. My hope would be that the new dac would give me a significant upgrade in sound over the internal dac of the Rotel. Or would that not be the case because the inexpensive Rotel would not make a decent enough transport to reap the sonic gains of the new dac?
Best wishes,
Don
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@OP. You probably have a better chance of getting a laser replaced in an Esoteric product than most machines, given the size of Teac/Tascam/Esoteric. However, you will probably need to get an official Esoteric service agent to supply and fit it. If you are worried, the best approach would be to get a new laser now and keep the existing one in the machine as a backup. I'm referring to the laser - which is almost always the component that fails. As the VRDS has been replaced by Atlas, you will not necessarily be able to get a complete new transport mechanism. However, the VRDS drive unit is extremely reliable.
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no_regrets
There has never been a better time to buy a CD/SACD player. Keep me posted on the Brand/Model under consideration. Have fun test-driving.
Happy Listening!
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The streamer and DAC are equally important. Typically it is best to spend equally… similar to turntable and phonostage. I have extensive experience with both. I have this theory that the DAC tends to set the tonal balance and musicality and the streamer will limit the detail and reduce the noise floor. But, they both make a huge difference… and while you can use a Mac book or PC as a streamer do not let anyone tell you it sounds as good. Some technical people put enormous time and money into a MacBook and futzing with their network to get it close to the sound quality of the streamer. A streamer, like Aurrender is a piece of high end audio equipment. You plunk the heavy beast down and it plays high end audio grade sound quality, no futzing like with a PC.
Generally the streamer itself does everything… your iPad acts as a remote control to the streamer. The streamer box has internal software to directly connect with Qobuz or Tidal. There are other ways of doing it… especially in cheap streamers… you don’t want to do that.
Most streamers have internal memory because for a while (a while ago) storing ripped files was a thing. Now with Qobuz and Tidal, these are reliable and of equal quality to any other media.
You can actually purchase albums from Qobuz and download them to your streamer. Also, more or less something of no value any more. I have my ripped library on my streamer just in case my internet goes out. I have used those only a couple times in five years.
The streamed files are not actually kept in your library. What is stored is some data (like the album cover and name of album, artist etc… and a link that you do not see to the location of the album on Qobuz. So press the album and the streamer goes off and finds it and plays it.
A good streamer like Aurender will cashe the music before playing so it doesn’t have hiccups and isolates you from your network. This is why you (I do) can use a network extender plugged in next to your streamer and get top notch fidelity.
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I guess the Artists get screwed. What prize do I win?
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Guess who gets screwed by the $15/month price. Just guess.
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Wowza, $14.99/mth is dirt cheap. I pretty much consistently spend a few hundred or more monthly on vinyl records from all over the world. I pay 2 to 3 x's more for the shipping of one record than the monthly fee of streaming, so that's a big win right there alone!
I'm glad to hear that you do not seem to hear a difference between the formats.
Do you think the streamer or the dac makes the most difference in the sound reproduction?
Because I've always listened to vinyl, I am used to and actually prefer listening to whole albums.
When you talk about the library... is that stored on the iPad or maybe in my case MacBook Pro laptop; or is it stored in the streamer with either built in storage or added on storage?
Thank you for taking the time to help me better understand this new world of music curation.
Best wishes,
Don
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Don,
Monthly fee… like $14.99 you get assess to over ten million albums and thousands of internet channels. Yes, about the cost of one CD a month.
Streaming (assuming a good quality streamer) will sound the same as a red book CD or SACD if the same master and often HD versions may be available so the will sound better than a CD. On my system I can play a CD, stored file, streamed file and vinyl album they will sound the same. There is a bit of variability on the vinyl depending on what copy number it was on the master… later ones do not sound good.
I typically listen to full albums but you can search and find by albums, artists, songs or genre. There are lots of list (photos of album covers with artists and album name) of new releases and different kind of recommendations.
You can use an iPhone but you really want to use an iPad… you’ll start exploring a nearly infinite world of music quickly.
You also have a library… where any albums (or just songs) you like can be collected so you can easily find them. The streamer will go out and check and see if you have any albums on your network and copy them into your streamer if you want. There are playlists you can create of songs.
Whole new world… you want in.
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@ghdprentice
Great looking system and listening room! I can imagine it sounds amazing!
So, for streaming, do you pay a monthly subscription fee or by the song?
Can you listen to a full album or only one song at a time?
Can you save favorites and then shuffle amongst them like hitting shuffle on a cd player?
Will the streaming sound as good as the physical disc?
Can I control it all from my iPhone?
Sorry for all the questions, this is really all very new to me.
Best wishes,
Don
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I have a relatively inexpensive Denon DCD-1700NE sacd player. For around $1500, I think it's a really nice sounding player. I only have a few sacd, but a ton of cds that I've collected over the years.
I had been playing cds almost exclusively, but I recently purchased an Innuous Zen Mk3 streamer. It's not their top model, but it does pretty well when fed into my Gustard R26 dac (via a U18). It has a cd drive built into it that can be used to rip really good copies of cds to it's internal storage. I didn't buy it for that feature, but I now find it pretty useful.
I have a Marantz TT-15S1 turntable with a Hana ML moving cartridge and Sutherland TZ Vibe phono stage. Not super high end, but it sounds nice. I don't use it a lot because streaming is so convenient and I'm discovering a lot of new music through streaming (Qobuz).
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Streaming is just like analog… the more you invest the better it sounds (subject to choosing wisely). Analog and digital sound and cost the same on my system. That can be accomplished at different price levels. See my systems.
A SACD player is a one box: transport, streamer (dedicated to the transport) and a DAC.
To stream, you need a Streamer and DAC. I own and recommend Aurrender streamers The lowest level sounds great and each higher tier sounds better. I have their flagship (recently discontinued, W20SE) and have had the Berkely DAC of which you heard… although surprisingly I prefer the sound of the Audio Research Reference DAC 9.
Once you have equivalent sound quality on streaming your world of music will change. Suddenly your library has over ten million albums. On Qobuz over half a million are high resolution. The world of music opens up. I have a collection of 2,000 albums and a great $45K analog end that I never listen to now.
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I found what the Joseph Audio/Doshi room was using at the AXPONA shows for their digital streaming....
- Aurender N30A 8TB Music Server $25,000
- Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC Reference 3 $28,000
- Berkeley Audio Design Alpha USB $2,275
For that kind of money, it darn well sound pretty good, am I right??? Well, it did and it impressed the heck out of me!
So, my initial thought was to buy a very nice, but used SACD/CD player so that I could take advantage of my admittedly small cd collection of roughly 100 cd's. I would then slowly but surely add to that as well as begin my SACD collecting. It's good to hear that "now" is the best time to start collecting SACD's.
However, if I go the route of streaming, then I can't use my existing CD's, but it would eliminate the worry of a transport mechanism dying. I just don't understand how the process of streaming works, etc. I guess I'm showing my age, lol!
I guess another thought would be to get the used SACD/CD player and when the transport finally dies, then get a streamer and plug it into the DAC section of the player via USB, AES/EBU, Coaxial, or TOS Inputs.
Best wishes,
Don
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You can buy Ruby marantz open box at Music Direct and see if you have a tech who can install the lens just in case. The parts is available . If your player broke under warranty MD more like replace it. Because Marantz has horrible support when your player is out of warranty.The Ruby is equal to my SA10 in rca mode. They only differ on xlr.
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Don I have two good analog set up as well.I fell in love with vynil. But sacd with good sacp player is very close. I play sacd when I like convenience.Nowadays is the best time to collect sacd there is so much to choose from.
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I do it all. CDs, SACDs, Streaming. Not big on vinyl but I do have an analog rig that I use for LPs no longer digitally available or where I prefer the lp mastering to the digital rendition.
SACDs when done right can be breathtaking in their realism. Since you don’t own any SACDs, my practical suggestion is that if you buy a player, new or used, it isn’t going to get a lot of wear and tear for a while. If I was in your shoes I would buy the used Esoteric, because they are as good as it gets in SACD. Don’t waste money on an extra drive that you may not be able to install due to the reasons that the OP has identified. If it goes, decide at that time if SACD is something that you really need in your life. If it is, there will still be manufacturers. SACD is valued a lot more in the Far East than in the West so someone will be making them for at least the next quarter century
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@jayctoy
I spent 3 days at AXPONA in both 2023 and 2024. At both shows, I really enjoyed the sound at the Joseph Audio/Doshi room. They were alternating between the wonderful sounding J. Sikora turntable and streaming. Those were the first time that I ever heard digital sound really enjoyable. I can't remember what they used for the streaming, etc. I'll have to maybe investigate that more.
I have probably about 1000+ truly mint lp's in both jazz and classical. I have zero SACD's but am willing to purchase to add to my collection of music. I have probably 100 or so CD's.
Best wishes,
Don
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Op just buy brand new sacd player . That is not too expensive.
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I agree if you don’t have collection of cds. And you are willing to learn streaming way to go. In my case I have large collection of cd, sacd, xrcd, so I don’t need streaming. Last axpona 2024 the WiFi at the venue got a problem. Many rooms can’t play music for the attendee. Some who are using turntable are lucky to demo their systems.
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@jsalerno277 very good point, much appreciated.
@ghdprentice @mazian You both might be right... that I should consider streaming. I have to admit, I am very much old school. Hence my vinyl rig that I love so much. I don't have the first clue about streaming, so I have a lot to learn about that. I don't even know where to start.
Best wishes,
Don
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If you don't have a large collection of SACD/CDs forget it and go with streaming. Qobuz hi res albums are usually as good as SACDs or at least very close.
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Sounds like it is time to embrace streaming.
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To echo GDHP, it depends upon the brand. Check with the manufacturer before you purchase used to determine if the are supporting the model and ask what laser and transport was used, proprietary or OEM. I had a bad experience with a Linn Unidisc 1.1. Great sounding disc player. Linn used a proprietary laser and when it failed as all lasers eventually do, they informed me they moved onto streaming and do not support disc format players any more. I will never buy Linn again. When you spend multiple 5 figures on a product you (or at least I) expect more than 10 years of support. Check first as I recommended.
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No need to worry. I bought an Esoteric SACD player with the VRDS NEO transport in 2008 and still use it a few times every week. It has worked perfectly for 16+ years. I love the player.
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The players I am considering are very high-end products utilizing Esoteric VSOP drive mechanisms which are no longer being sold outside of Esoteric players.
If I were able to purchase a replacement, the manufacturer will be willing to install it, for a fee obviously, but my concern is this.... who knows how many years will go by before I would need the service and what if the manufacturer is no longer in business?
I didn't know how complicated it would be to have some other audio technician do the installation?
I'm not sure if the drive mechanism comes with the laser assembly, so that is a great question for me to ask. Thank you for bringing that to my attention, glennewdick and jayctoy!
The more I keep trying to research CD/SACD players... it seems all the brands have issues with the drives, with many of them no longer being able to be serviced. I have to admit... I'm getting cold feet about buying something used out of warranty, and I'm not willing to pay the price for these high end players new.
I'm mainly a vinyl guy, but there are times I want to be able to listen to "new" music that isn't released on vinyl and I was hoping to find a player that will come close to my analog rig in sound.
I appreciate everyone's comments and giving me more to think about :)
Best wishes,
Don
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No regrets. My Marantz SA10 lens gave up. It is now fix . I bought 2 extra lens for my Ruby and and my Sa10 player.If you are buying used player. Make sure you have a back up lens and tech to do it.
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Any reputable tech can install a drive not that hard.
having a spare is only a thing if you know there are not many available. Like an older out of production drive. If parts are plentiful why bother. mind you if your sanity is an issue worrying about it then buy one. Probably buy the optical side as well. They don't always come together.
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It depends on the brand you buy. If you buy from a high end audio company they should have a stockroom of spares in case this happens to you in the future. On the other hand they probably have modified the drive to make it sound better, so, they will have to do the replacement.
If it is a budget drive. Well, not sure why you would want a spare. Playing discs is becoming less and less common with streaming sounding as good or better.
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