I am not a guru, but although I’d think experiment with both if you have the outlets available (or enough speaker cable) I’d THINK having the sidewalls but having whatever is in the dining area as a rear wall would be the better option.
I’d THINK that with this option, your reflection points to the side would be equal, and if they were not, I would also THINK that your left/right balance would be skewed. As far as the dining room where the back wall would be, at least there will be stuff back there for diffraction and I would also THINK it might be advantageous to have that as opposed to a reflection off of a back wall that was closer.
With option 2, the side wall on the left will be farther away as compared to the side wall on the right. Is there anything I can do to minimize the skew? Would toeing in help?
Adding some sound absorption at the first reflection point on the near sidewall should help alleviate any concerns about L/R balance with having differing distances to your sidewalls. I’d always prefer an open back wall condition over a close one.
I think you're going to like option #2. Having an open area behind the listening position can be very constructive. No unwanted reflections. Good luck and let us know how it works out.
You can differentially decorate the sidewall the at is closer to the speaker to absorb a bit more. Open behind is great, since the great depth will eliminate rear reflections. And as a bonus, it will probably sound better in the dinning area.
Number two is the better of the setups. You might get some unwanted ambient sound from the dining room in setup 2 but that's better than having the speakers in, effectively, two different acoustic environments as in option one.
Still no answer about the distance to the sidewall. This is a critical piece of information.
The strongest reflections caused by speakers in a listening room are called “first reflections”, which are a single bounce off walls, ceiling, and floor before arriving at the listening position. However, the human brain is adept at recognizing direct sound despite the first reflections, provided two things happen: 1) the first reflections contain the same or similar frequency content as the direct sound, and, 2) the first reflections arrive within about 10ms of the direct sound.
By their nature, first reflection path lengths are longer than direct sound path lengths; if they are too long—in other words, longer than 10ms, which equals 135″ longer than the direct path length—they become detectable as echoes and deteriorate the stereo sound quality. (Speed of sound is 1,125 feet/second, so 1 millisecond is 1.125 feet, which is 13.5″.) First reflection path lengths of 135″ longer than the direct sound path may benefit from acoustical treatment (i.e. redirection, absorption) to avoid being heard. Diffusion on sidewall first reflections has been shown to reduce speech intelligibility. Our preference is to use flat reflection, angled reflection, or absorption....
To Treat or Not To Treat Sidewall First Reflections
When considering sidewall treatment options at the first reflection points, I try to balance a few factors: how much longer are the sidewall’s first reflection path lengths compared to the direct path length; the average decay time for the midrange and high frequencies; a person’s preference between strong imaging or a wider soundstage.
While a domestic room’s total sound decay ideally lasts between 200 and 500 ms for stereo playback, early reflections occur within the first 40–50 ms, as illustrated in Figure 1. In domestic-sized rooms, our primary focus is on the first 10 ms—this window typically includes initial sound reflections off walls, the floor, ceiling, furniture, and other nearby surfaces. Because these reflections arrive so quickly, the brain integrates them with the direct sound—a phenomenon known as the Haas effect or precedence effect. Reflections arriving later than ~10 ms, or within 10 dB of the direct sound, can be perceived as separate echoes, which may degrade clarity.
Process Flow for Room Treatment
1. Address Early Reflection Symmetry
Why First? Early reflections occurring within 5–20 milliseconds of the direct sound significantly affect imaging precision and tonal balance.
Key Principle: Asymmetrical reflections can cause image smearing and coloration.
Solution: Use absorption or redirection (via diffusers or angled surfaces) at the first order reflection points on walls, ceiling, and possibly the floor.
2. Control Decay Time in the Bass Range
Why Second? Bass frequencies have longer wavelengths, making them harder to control and prone to modal ringing which can also affect its harmonics in the midrange.
Key Principle: Excessive bass decay obscures clarity across the spectrum, masking fine musical details.
Solution: Use bass traps in room corners and boundary intersections to reduce low-frequency decay to the desired target (< 500 ms).
3. Shape Mid/High Frequency Decay
Why Now? A process that skips early reflections means that decay time is ambiguous as it contains early reflection peaks which smear imaging. High frequencies can be tuned more effectively after early reflection peaks are tamed.
Key Principle: Mid/high decay that’s too long creates echo and lack of detail; too short creates a dead-sounding room.
Solution: Use a combination of absorbers and diffusers to fine-tune decay time characteristics.
4. Finalize with Frequency Response Equalization
Why Last? Should you start by equalizing frequency response, then decay is polluted by EQ changes done before it, and with every absorption panel change an EQ re-do is necessary. EQ must be applied after the room’s physical response is stable.
Key Principle: Premature EQ results in corrections based on unstable room conditions.
Solution: After acoustic treatment is finalized, apply EQ to flatten any remaining minor response deviations.
Why This Order Matters:
Skipping early reflections means decay measurements include early energy peaks, skewing results and degrading imaging.
EQ before treatment causes circular adjustments, as every panel or trap affects response and requires re-EQing.
Hi , I have the same scenario. I started with home theatre using option #2 having a combination of Klipsch Heritage and JBL studio on Sound Anchor stands. I then went to 2.1 same layout. Over time the wife factor crept in and I went to option #1 with a Plasma TV in the middle. When I shifted from the open back to the side wall the sound suffered. I then went low power tubes on the side wall and have been able to cope due to heavy carpet , heavy tapestry drapes and a huge cloth sectional. But I’ve longed to go back to the open back configuration. I must say however that late night listening to female vocalist with NOS tubes on the side wall at low volume was very enjoyable. My room is 17x 27 but the actual listening area is 17x17. The open back is a hardwood floor dining area. I just had a pair of Rogue M-180’s freshly brought up to Dark spec and the Tekton DI’s arrive Monday. I’m going back to #2 and look forward to room symmetry and room to breathe. I hope my ramble makes sense. Regards , Mike B.
Oh also , as touched on above about side wall reflections. I rotate a SS amp on the side wall configuration and it really expands the soundstage and of course the volume. At this point the side wall and ceiling reflections appear. Tube amp no problem, SS amp big problem. So the comments above from a couple members are very relevant and being familiar with their shares are meant to enlighten and not offend. I had that to experience that when I rotated in the SS amp. Hilde in particular is very well practiced at room treatment and very helpful to me for getting direction. Hope I’m not overstepping with my thoughts , as we’re here for a good time. Cheers , my Peers !
hey guys, thank you so much for all the comments and suggestions. Definitely leaning towards option 2.
hilde45@jawfxr01 Here are some photos. they’re not perfect but hopefully gives you a idea. I have tried adding notes so you can understand the layout. The wall to the left side of the speaker is where the TV would go. The wall to the right of the speaker is basically the entrance to the Apartment.
@OP The photos re helpful. Perhaps you could give consideration to relocating your dining area and placing the speakers on the wall in the picture that is marked "dining". The other two locations have very little width to accommodate speakers.
@yoyoyayaactually the photos are a bit deceptive. The width isn’t as bad as it appears. The width of the wall where I’m planning to place the speakers should be at least 10 feet if not more.
and to your idea about moving the speakers to the dining area, I did consider but my boss (Mrs) doesn’t want dining table to be the first thing people see when they enter.. it’s an argument I know I can’t win.. lol
@OP - Understood, thanks. (Mrs) probably won't be rushing to apply acoustic treatment but you will need some as the space is going to be very reflective otherwise.
@hilde45the wall itself must be around 12 feet. So I could position the speakers potentially 3 feet away from the right side wall leaving about 6 feet between the speakers. And for what’s it worth, the distance from the left side wall (basically entrance of the apartment) should be about 7-8 feet. So more distance to the left side wall as compared to the right side. Hope this helps!
The critical things to know are the distance from speaker to listener, the distance from speaker to side wall to listener. You mention "the wall" but I don't know what that means. A diagram would help.
@hilde45If you look at the OP's pictures from a previous post, it will make more sense.
@OP - the numbers you quote look accurate and confirm what your pictures show, namely, that if you leave a reasonable distance from the right hand side wall and, allowing for the door, you have very little distance between the speakers.
You can also play with the distance of your seating to the speakers. Near or nearer field can minimize the sidewall difference. This might apply if you're in scenario #1 or #2.
Apologies for the radio silence. I got extremely busy with shifting and other stuff. Anyway, we successfully moved and while we’re still settling down, I got my setup in place.
Hope these photos give you a better sense of the room and its dimensions. As you can tell, the side wall from the left speaker is farther compared to that of the right speaker. I have installed the acoustic panels I had at my previous place the best way I could in this new room. They’re 2inch impression series panels from GIK.
The second photo is frome the speaker end, you can see the back wall is quite far back, and the left side (from listening side) ends up into a kicthen area while the right side wall extends all the way to the back wall.
One thing I’d say is that, even with these less than ideal room structure, the system sounds 5 times better than it did in my old apartment which had crazy high ceilings.
Anyway, any recommendations or suggestions that can improve the sound without getting me kicked out of the house? Thank you so much!
Thanks. Speaking of pictures worth a thousand words... really worth it.
Well, that is challenging. Where are you going to sit? That will be a challenge. Where you have put the speakers is the obvious placement. You can do a corner bass trap and acoustic panels behind the speakers. Moving the rack over next to the TV would help. This would probably sound really good. Can you find a way to put a listening chair that make a triangle with the speakers?
Are those mirrors on th ceiling? Those are probably acoustically bad.
@ghdprentice thank you so much for the prompt response.
the 2 wall art hanging behind the speakers are acoustic panels. Are you recommending adding more?
the glass above the speaker is a little window of sorts because the living room doesn’t get any direct sun light. Not ideal for music but I don’t have much of a choice.
when you say move the rack next to the TV, any reasons for it? Also, would it help if I moved it to the side instead of between the speakers? The reason I’m asking is that I have an 18 month old toddler at home. And hence the cage in front of the system.
I may be able to get away with a bass trap so long as it’s shorter than the speaker height. Will be sort of hidden in the corner next the right speaker. I don’t feel the bass is boomy, what exactly will a bass trap do?
Also. I sit on the lengthy part of the couch for now. Plan is to move it to the other side and put another chair right in front of the speaker creating that L shaped sofa. If that makes sense? Let’s just say the sitting position will likely be where the long leg of the couch is at the moment. Once I get the chair, I should be able to move it forward or backward while listening to crest that triangle
Thanks for the feedback. The glass above the system looked like mirrors at an angle. I get it now.
You would move the rack to prevent it from interfering with the imaging. You could cage the rack over to the side, like you have the whole system now. Then just protect each speaker.
Once this is done and you are able to sit at the apex of a roughly equilateral triangle with the speakers (you can just move a chair there when you listen). You will want to dial in the speakers. I think you can move the left speaker a bit further out since there is no adjacent side wall... Actually what is the speaker to speaker distance? I can’t tell. You would want 6’ to 7’... but it can be smaller... it determines where the listener position it.
You will want to slowly vary the toe in on the speakers between beams crossed behind your head and straight out. Take your time. I typically try one extreme and then the other, very slowly converging on the one with the best central image and widest sound stage. You can work on this for a week... Drop it and work on other things... pick it up again next year. Over time you will learn the sound of your system and optimize the toe in.
You can determine how effective acoustic panels are by simulating them. I have used couch cushions (wrap in heavy blankets if they are leather), pillows and rolled up blankets... anything like that. The height of the imaging will be determined by the acoustic treatments. The treatments that you have only do not extend to the floor. So they will restrict the imagine height. Look at my main system, notice the pillows along the floor. The soundstage on my system goes from outside the speakers, above the speakers and into the wall.
@ghdprenticeWow, your system and room both look incredible. Must be a treat to listen to music!
The speakers are roughly 5 feet apart. I can spread them out a bit but the right side speaker is 2 feet from the side wall. Will it be ok if its 1 or 1.5 feet instead? This way I can get closer to that 6-7 feet gap between the speakers.
As for the rack, I can move them to the right of the right speaker, somewhere between the speaker and to the left of the TV. Will that help or should the rack go right below the TV center? Either way, i would need longer speaker cable. They're a 6 feet pair, so won't reach the left speaker once I move the rack. Is it ok to get 1 longer cable or do they both have to the same lenght? If anything, the right speaker will be much closer to the rack and amp, even the current 6 feet length will be an overkill.
Hey, thanks again for taking the time help. I really appreciate your help and guidance!
Ultimately, you have to try stuff. I would keep the two feet on the right to start with. Looks like you can gain nearly a foot on the left. Since there is not a wall close to the left speaker you have more space there. 6 feet apart would be a good sized triangle. You can try more later.
As far as the rack goes. In part it depends on the volume you listen. But I would try to move it as far away as possible so the speakers are not shaking the rack... I would try up to, but not under the TV. Good starting point. I am sure your wife doesn’t want this looking too weird.
Best practice... is to put the amp on the floor and split the system at the preamp. But, this is the kind of refinement you can work towards year from now. Yes, speaker cables should be the same length. We have all struggled with this. Frustrating, but a really good habit to bite the bullet and get the same length.
I’d recommend Robert Harleys, The Complete Guide to High End Audio. As if you would have time for reading with a toddler. I am sure you are lucky if you get a half hour to listen to music.
Also, it would be helpful to know your equipment. You can put that a Virtual System... so you don't have to repeat it. Knowing the exact components can be very helpful in making recommendations.
Have fun, take your time.
You’re welcome to PM me if you want to continue any of this in private. Your call. I’m good either way.
@ghdprenticeThank you, and it make sense. I just ordered the book on Amazon. And here's my humble setup (not remotely as amazing as yours). I did pull them apart and toe them directly firing at my listening position. The imaging has improved dramatically. Haven't yet moved the rack but that will be the next thing to try. I want to play diff types of music to see the impact of this change first before I tweak anything else.
You're right, i seldom get to listen to music the way I'd like. Good news is that little guy loves music. while i don't get to sit at the right place nor there's silence to fully appreciate the music, it does play in the background for most of the day. Hope he'll take up this wonderful hobby one day. :)
The great thing is that regardless of your investment level optimizing your setup willl make a huge difference in the sound quality and is great experience for later systems. When you have time after a couple weeks, add some photos to your virtual system. They are very easy to add there.
I have had decades of enjoyment of improving my system with set up and of course listening.
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