Perfect demo cd Allen toussaints. “The Bright Mississippi” I have 1500 cds. This is the best recording in my collection.
Road trip to demo $10,000 speakers
I'm going to take a several hour road trip to the Washington DC/Baltimore area to demo some speakers in the $10,000 range for a once in a lifetime purchase. I plan on listening to some Magico A3's, Aerial Acoustic 7T's, and Spendor D-9's. One of the dealers also has Paradigm
Persona 3F's on the floor, so I'll take a listen to them too. While I'm up there are there any other speakers in that price range you'd recommend I try to locate and take a listen to. I'm open to and welcome your suggestions and will take the time to research each one as well.
I'm not in the market for used equipment. Thanks for any and all suggestions.
Mike
I'm not in the market for used equipment. Thanks for any and all suggestions.
Mike
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Jafant, I'll probably be leaving early Wednesday, unless the weather is too bad. I'll get the trip together tomorrow, with directions to get to each dealer there, a notebook that includes among other things, suggestions provided here for listening at demos, records and CD's to bring along, and making phone calls to each dealer in advance to make sure everything is in order on their end. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the suggestions and information you all have provided here. Hope I can return the favor someday. Calvinj, Evolution Audio carries Revel and I'll be stopping there. I'd like to hear Revel's F228BE if possible, which if I remember correctly, is right at my price point. Mike |
Twoleftears, good call. It is Audio Exchange on West Broad St. I was thinking of, not Audio Art. As far as the "boonies go, my next door neighbors are cows, so I'm feeling this locale qualifies for that appellation. I love the countryside though, and wouldn't leave it for the world. I left the New York City suburbs as soon as I hit adulthood, and never looked back. At times like this though, when looking for audio equipment, I do miss the trappings of civilization . Mike |
@skyscraper I've never been to Audio Art, but I exchanged emails a while back. He runs his operation out of his house, and I got the impression that, obviously, he could only stock a fairly limited number of items. Audio Exchange is the one real store I'm aware of. Sonus Faber, Paradigm Personas, B&W, some other brands. Depends on how much time you have and how many miles you want to drive. Boonies... All relative. Where I live the one real store dedicated to audio went over to the dark side a year ago=now doing only custom home theatre install. |
Inna. I will take you advice to keep within my budget. This money's coming straight out of my life savings so I have to limit myself. There will be no extra $1000 spent. Thanks Tomic60, I'll keep your list of integrated amp recommendations for further research. I'll have to take a breather for a while after getting the speakers, before purchasing anything else. My new VPI turntable and now speakers is plenty enough to accomplish in one year without being irresponsible. If I win the lottery that will change immediately. Steve, thanks for relating your story. I was really wanting to hear back from you because I seriously do not want to replicate your dilemma. I'm glad you finally found your solution. I'll look up whether the Hegel amps are still in production, and if so include them in my next round of research. Twoleftears, those locations are exactly my planned stops. I'm going to plan out my route tonight, find a hotel online, and call up each location I haven't yet, to make sure they have suitable equipment and the correct model speakers set up for demoing. You've obviously made the rounds up there. I was thinking about swinging by Richmond on the way home to check out Audio Art. But that's out of the way and probably overkill unless I'm having too much fun. Our local dealer in Roanoke, Audiotronics, informed my he is carrying Monitor Audio now and can set up a demo of their PL200 II, so maybe I'll check that out. He's looking to carry Focals as well, so maybe we're moving into audio high end territory down here in the boonies. Thanks again |
@skyscraper, if you're going to do Gifted Listener, Deja Vu, Evolution Audio and Command Performance, you'll definitely need to overnight somewhere in the area. With those four, you get Vienna Acoustics, Vandersteen, Magnepan, Linn, Audio Note, Harbeth, ProAc, Aerial Acoustics, Dynaudio, Focal, Devote, Neat, Magico, and probably others. That takes time. Throw in IQ Home Entertainment, and you get a couple more. |
Skyscraper i apologize for the late reply. To answer your question about how I made difficult speakers sound good well I kept bringing in different components and cables. most amps built to a price which at the time was nad, adcom, nak, B&K, all sounded pretty much alike and I could hear a run of nordost wire sounded a little different than my kimber 4tc, but I really didn’t think it was better! way back in the 90’s it wasn’t until I stepped up my game and drove my kef’s with a krell and bi amped did those speakers sound good, But here’s the thing, I demoed those speakers on a HK receiver and they were amazing because that room was dead acoustically. There’s the camp that claims ’all amps sound the same’ and for casual listening with unfamiliar gear that’s probably true, but I found a relative bargain in amplification when I brought home the hegel h360 $6000 to drive my $22,000 speakers and when you’re listening at home you will need an amp that compliments your speakers and a good b&m dealer can help you there |
again I am getting fantastic sound with a $3.2 K NAIM integrated driving Vandersteen Treo CT......i am quite sure it would generate Condo eviction levels......ha is it 1.2 KW a side like I have in the reference system?...no but it is fine and very very non fatiguing... there are a herd of insanely good integrated amps in the $5-10 range...especially used.. Rogue Electrocompiniet VTL ARC Ayre Pass the list goes on and on... your two highest distortion producers are the transducers....put the $$$$$$ there...... |
Thanks for mentioning the Neat speakers Larry. I've never heard of them before. I'll look at them while I'm at Command. I'll make sure I explore normal listening levels as you suggest too. Deja Vu does sound interesting. I'm probably going to have to overnite in DC to take in all these places and speakers. Thanks Kalali, I will definitely try listening from an adjacent room as you and Duke suggest, even if they think I'm leaving or ducking out. I can probably dig up some live acoustic music to bring along too. I think I might have some old well recorded live acoustic ECM label recordings I could locate. Thanks, Mike |
+1 on L.I.A.R. Live music, especially with unamplified instruments, always sounds "live" no matter where you sit or stand. If a system can pull that off, then its the optimum match among the components and high quality package. That's my acid test whenever someone asks me over to listen to their system and most systems, even some very expensive ones, can't reproduce that illusion from the adjacent room. Duke speaks the truth. |
While you are at Command, don't overlook the Neat speakers and Devore. They may not have the more expensive Neat models in the shop, but, that brand is worth exploring. As to how to audition speakers, I suggest doing a lot of the listening at quite low volume level. It is easy to get juiced when speakers are played at high volume, but, that tends to be deceiving. If you listen at your normal, comfortable level, or even lower volume, and the music sounds flat and uninvolving, you should be concerned with being caught in the trap of looking for more and more power to get satisfying sound. I think this is common problem with a lot of modern, high-end speaker-amp combinations. Also, set aside a lot of time for your visit to Deja Vu. I doubt that you will encounter another place anything like it anywhere in your travels, so take in everything they have to offer. In particular, listen to the custom-built stuff because it sounds quite different from most modern speakers. The more mundane "regular" brands include Harbeth, ProAc and Audio Note. |
Shkong, thank you, yours is a reasonable suggestion. I'll keep it in mind when shopping for amps too, sometime in the future. JackD, Good suggestion, Command Performance is actually my first planned stop. Spoke to them only a few days ago. They carry Magico and Focal, both of which I'd like to hear. Inna, How dare you disagree with me? (just kidding) I suppose there's no reason not to do it both ways, both to hear what the speakers are capable of doing, as well as what I might expect to be hearing at home if I don't win the lottery. I'll do the volumes changes and walk about the listening room when listening as you suggest also. Thanks for your suggestions. Audiokinesis, thank you for your interesting out of the listening room suggestion to check how natural the reverberant field sounds, which as you say will correlate with possible listener fatigue. I will definitely try that out, and would have never thought of doing so without you suggesting it.. Mike |
That's certainly a good idea. I would also add this for in the room listening - turn the volume up and down not too fast. Good system should essentially sound the same and coherent, its character should be unchanged. Then leave it at your preferred listening level. In addition, listen near field as well, and walk around in the room. If you like it from any listening position, including in another room - that's good. |
One of the things that is usually impractical to evaluate if you have limited time is, whether or not a speaker will remain relaxing and non-fatiguing over the long run. I’d like to suggest a way to check for this relatively quickly. Assuming a speaker sounds good on your music when you sit in the sweet spot, in other words it’s obviously a strong contender, try turning up the volume a little louder than normal and walk out of the room. Listen through the open doorway but with no line-of-sight to the speakers. From the next room, all you can hear is the tonal balance of the reflections and the dynamic contrast. If the speakers’ reflected sound (reverberant field) sounds natural, that tends to correlate well with long-term fatigue-free listening. If the dynamic contrast is also good, you might even experience a decent illusion of live music happening back in the room, outside of your line-of-site. Again, this would tend to predict long-term fatigue-free listening. When there is a significant spectral discrepancy between the first-arrival sound and the subsequent reflections, that tends to produce listening fatigue over time. Note that live unamplified instruments have no such issues, even a fairly directional instrument like a trumpet. A live trumpet still sounds like a live trumpet from the next room. This listening-in-another-room (L.I.A.R.) test doesn’t tell the whole story obviously, but ime it tells a part of the story that you may not have time to discover otherwise. Enjoy The Quest, and very best of luck to you in it. Duke |
I disagree with the OP, though of course understand him. When auditioning good speakers you want to hear everything they are capable of. $100k preamp/amp with $10k speakers is good, generally speaking. But if you want to insist on more balance in terms of cost - yes, at least $10k integrated or preamp/amp. Speakers don't have to be the most expensive component. Electronics is easier to upgrade. Again, in your place I would ask a dealer to bring out the best in the speakers I might consider. |
Even if you can not afford it right now, you shall allow 10K for amplifiers(integrated or pre- power combo) another 10k for front end (digital player or transport and dac combo or turntable) to get the best of 10k speakers. If other equipment cost more than 10K, then you may ask dealer to scale down below 10K. |
I was going to let this thread die a natural death but thought of one more question before I travel to audition some speakers next week. I've been sensibly advised that during speaker demos not to let to let dealers get away with using equipment that is too high end or overly expensive to honestly demo the speakers. My question is, what would a reasonable ballpark figure be for a integrated amp or preamp/amp combination an audio dealer should use during a demo of $10,000 speakers. I'm only guessing in the $5000 range, but really don't know. I do know what kind of turntable and CD player I will be using already and can gauge that equipment in a demo accordingly. Again I'm only looking for a ballpark price range on an amp or amp/preamp. to reasonably match the quality of whatever speaker I'm demoing and end up choosing. Price is a crude measure, but I want to ask them to switch theirs out if it's such a high quality component that I wouldn't get a legitimate demo. Hope I'm making sense here. Thanks for any advice and wish me luck. Mike |
Tomic60, I’ll look up HiFiBuys in Atlanta website in Atlanta and see what they have. That’s a drive and a half from here as you know though I did round trip it in one day once. Steve, I’m curious about what you finally did to get the Kef R’s up to snuff. Did you have to buy all new equipment, cables, and the like? Sorry for your dismal experience. It sounds like I’m really going to have to stay on top of the demoing process at these stores. By being insistent I might be able to wrangle an in-home demo when I’m ready to buy. I’ll check out the possibilities. One drawback to that is I’m going to be replacing my preamp and amp next. Maybe they’d bring an decent integrated amp with them. Glupson, I certainly don’t need snotty. If I don’t care for someones attitude. I’ll let them know about it. I’m not really the shy retiring type. I think its probably a good idea to see if they would for a potential $10,000 sale, set up the kind of demo I want with a turntable and not outrageously expensive amps etc. A lot of good suggestions here on how to prep for these demos. Mike |
skyscraper, I know I am repeating myself to the point of obnoxiousness, but... JS Audio in Bethesda is another of the stores that brought me iPad and asked me what I wanted to hear on Tidal. Young man was very friendly and we had a nice chat. Some time before that, I would say years so it may not matter anymore, the place was kind of snotty. |
Twoleftears, thanks for tailoring your recommended audio stores to my location near Roanoke and planned trip north. I couldn't have asked for more. Thank you. I don't think I've come across The JS Audio name before. I'll take a look at their website. I will definitely be visiting the others. I have utilized both Uptown Audio locations you mentioned both in Roanoke and now Salem . He re-foamed my DQ-10 woofers and fixed my Phase Linear 4000 preamp another time. Did a good job on both. Do you live nearby? Godnbob, I'm glad to you've had good luck with your used equipment. I honestly don't want to chance of having to need repairs, even though I would love to have $30,000 speakers for $12,000. I've currently ten older Delta woodworking machines I'm needing to restore, ten acres and a good sized house to maintain, and a shop to build. That's overwhelming enough for one guy. I want stereo equipment I know is new and good to go for the next twenty years or so. Jafant9 I will look up Sounsdscape and the Listening Rooms websites and see what they carry. Thanks. |
Mike, I have to second the above post. At the price we're shopping in even if you had a dealer nearby they're not crazy about shlepping $10k speakers to listeners homes unless they're more than a little confident of a sale. It was the reason I bought the salon2's used, even if I could hear them in a dealers showroom there's still no guarantee they'll sound the same at home. Example; My first 'audiophile' speakers were Kef R 105/3's that sounded like nothing I ever heard before I was shaking with desire and I bought them got them home and they were sibilant and bass shy, I call dealer and say whats up? and they tell me they just need time to break in and they'll sound like the demo's did. Well it took 10 years and thousands of dollars to get them to sound like they did that magical day and I was miserable in between. No shame in buying used then either way sell them after a month if you loved them go ahead and buy the pair new, if not move to the next speaker you enjoyed demoing. |
@OP, I can understand your reluctance regarding used speakers, but since gettting back in the game after a 25 year hiatus, just about all my equipment has been bought used-including speakers. And, I have never had an issue with damaged equipment. Just ask a lot of questions and get a feel of the seller. -Is he a serious audiophile or just someone who trades equipment? From my experience, most sellers on Agon will let you audition their equipment if you are local. B |
Yes, years ago I visited the guy in Uptown Audio when he still had his last shop, before he moved his business into his home, which is I imagine where you went. That's why I was trying to suggest specific stores and models, approaching DC from the southwest (rather than just throwing out lots of names of speaker brands). Gifted Lister is the first stop, and after that it's a toss up between Deja Vu (don't be deterred by the industrial estate), Evolution (haven't been there since they moved), and Command Performance (again a strange semi-subterranean building, but there's a convenient parking lot). After that you might consider JS Audio, though my experience there wasn't great. North of DC I haven't explored. But as well as the Baltimore area you might consider Delaware, where there are a couple of good stores with interesting makes. |
Tomic601, I am in Virgina, just north of Roanoke, a few hours southwest of Washington DC. I am looking forward to building stands for my DQ10’s if nothing else. I couldn’t afford them along with the DQ10’s, back in my 20’s. I do have to figure out what kind of wood, likely not exotic, they used on their side panels in order to match it on the stands. I have a vague, but unlikely, memory it might have been pecan I’ll look up Rudy Von Gelders studio as you suggest, I’ve a number of recordings he engineered. That’ll be interesting. Thanks for the suggestion. Joe, kind of you to say. Thank you. And I probably will be needing some luck making a determination considering the number of recommendations provided here. Great site and members. I’m very pleased with the helpful content and number of responses received. Mike |
Joe, The only reason I don't want used, is that speakers, like used cars, may have been abused or damaged, and potential defects may be hidden to the untrained eye or expensive to repair later on. I've had enough problems over the years with my own well cared for stereo equipment to not want the experience of dealing with someone else's equipment if I'm not sure of how they treated theirs. Having to deal with repairs I don't know how to do is one of the reason's I'm replacing my own vintage equipment. Learning how to do basic repairs on my B&O turntable because nobody locally could do them, was a stess I don't wish to repeat. I've got enough time consuming repair or maintenance work to do around here on things I do know how to do. I would like to learn about electronics, but probably won't ever get around to it. Glupson, Sorry for the typo. Above, when you replied about "squids" I meant to say "You could be correct....... For some reason you can't correct typos on this site if you don't catch them right away. I'm sure they have their reasons. Inna4, be nice. Ieales, thanks again for your input. |
A "live performance" only counts if it is unamplified. Otherwise, depending on equipment and skill of the sound engineer, the results can be from awesome to gawd awful. In an acoustic live performance, instruments are easily localized, focused and have the appropriate scale. Sections do not expand and contract or perambulate. If one listens to MP3, that is exactly what happens due to phase errors. This should not happen with uncompressed program but all too often does. The denser the material the more confused it becomes. People drink CharBux, but it's an extremely poor excuse for coffee. As my dear old Nan was wont to say, "There's no accounting for taste" |
Glupson, you could correct as to what "squids" means. Hddg, thanks for the listening room advice and I'll add your speaker model suggestions to the list. I'm up to about thirty models to check out now. Good grief. I never heard of the XTZ Divine Alphas before. The name is certainly original Dweller, Hoochie Mama? That might be another good speaker model name. Mtret, if you come across some Divine Alphas let me know, Tomic 601, hope you're correct about my listening space. And great advice to hang on to my DQ 10's to play around with learning how to do upgrades. I've been dreaming about building the stands for them, mirror imaging and, replacing the old caps and piezo tweeter for years. I'll put the DQ's out in my new 24' by 40' woodworking shop when its built. Great idea, And I've added the Vandersteen Treo CT to my "must hear" short list. Thanks. Passet02, consider it done. Ieales, thanks again for you input, and putting in a kind word on John Dahlquist the designer of my DQ 10's. I remember reading up on his "phased arrays" back in the 1970's not fully understanding what he was trying to accomplish then, but have enjoyed the results of his approach these many years. Steve59, great idea to get an in home demo. I only wish it were possible out here in the middle of nowhere. Mike |
I know you stated that you're not in the market for used speakers. Is there a particular reason for this? If your budget is 10,000 dollars, you could score a GREAT pair of $30,000 speakers. I saw a pair of Monitor Audio speakers a dealer wanted $12,000.00 for. Would they not work? Just curious. They were less than three years old. Joe |
I was at axpona in march and I was looking to spend about $10k on speakers I mean why not? the banks giving .1% on my money, well that lame a$$ excuse was enough to get my wife on board. I didn't care for most of the big speakers in the hotel rooms and loved the little 2 ways. My 3 make that 4 favorite rooms were Neat acoustics, fugly little things that sound musical, Magnepan and Carver also sounded good in the small rooms and the little $20,000 Raidho was amazing. I ended up buying a pair of Revel Salon2's used but they need power and room to breathe. I believe when we get up to $5k with speakers the listening room becomes the most significant factor in how a system is going to sound and that's why I buy used. What happens if after spending 3 days listening to the best on offer you pull the trigger on a pair and they don't jel with your room? I guarantee the salesman will say they need time to break in. Once you pick the speakers you like GET an in home demo! |
I interpreted your post to mean you recorded and mixed Al Jyes ...since 1977 chasing time and phase and doing it scientifically...As were recording studios. Our large monitors were designed for the room, set and aligned with precision that would make most audiophiles envious. Ditto small monitors on stands to orient in 3d. Phase and time aligned for the best imaging. Coherence was king. And manufacturers. Deane Jensen transformers and mic pre’s using them designed for minimum group delay. Rupert Neve, George Massenberg, Roger Nichols, Alan Sides et al all trying to bring the same sound to both sides of the glass. For the technically inclined, this was interesting reading. It’s a 14-part series on designing a recording console from the early 80’s. http://www.vintagewindings.com/gen%20pop/8299543VW8335/ProAudio1/Steve%20Dove%20Console%20Design.pdf Most systems totally destroy the imaging and layering crafted into the mixes. Some denigrate pop recordings because they are not the same as an acoustic live performance. They were never intended to be!! Any system that can unravel the references mentioned can handle ANY other program be it opera, full orchestra, mono 40’s big band, acoustic anything with aplomb. Salesmen, reviewers and audiophiles blather on about balance, focus, imaging never having heard a system that can reproduce what’s actually on the disc. Most playback is so unbelievably and egregiously incoherent as to be unlistenable. The brain can easily adjust for frequency anomalies but it has no delay lane or early machine to time align the foot’s point* with the heft* when they arrive asynchronously. * point is beater hitting head and heft is the ’weight’ of the sound of a kick drum. We often took the front head off and stuffed the bottom with a packing blanket to achieve the desired sonics. Selected mic placed [angle and distance] with precision rivalling cartridge alignment. Different drummer, drum, head, studio all required specific mic and treatment. Good systems easily delineate the differences. ...most audiophile dedicated rooms are sterile beyond belief including the forest of reflective gear planted between speakers and a barrier to actually using the turntable...a-effing-men! Jon Dalhquist knew that It’s not the frequency. It’s the time! |
@ieales I interpreted your post to mean you recorded and mixed Al J...well that is astounding....I set about building my own digital and analog rack to push myself , learn but also know what the feeds sound like....keeps me from chasing my tail....Ruby is certainly great also.... I am a Vandersteen fanboy...since 1977 chasing time and phase and doing it scientifically.....but again I own and listen to other gear, including panels.....including the vaunted “ squids”as you call them! Mike the OP - i think you will find your room sounds better than most...get some natural diffration in those book shelves, rugs, java tables, art, etc..most audiophile dedicated rooms are sterile beyond belief including the forest of reflective gear planted between speakers and a barrier to actually using the turntable... i think you should add The Vandersteen Treo CT to your list, yes I do own them, so factor that in... might I suggest you keep the DQ 10 also...persue a slow do it your self to learn rebuild program..start w caps and ridding yourself of the Piezo honker, go from there....every now and then sub them in to your system and learn to listen critically vs whatever it is you settle in on my two cents.. have fun |
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Well that’s a nice and exciting trip, but I know it is also usually sprinkled with some anxiety about making the right choice. The best advice I can give is use your ears, your heart and your soul first...that’s what music is all about. Dont let marketing and salesmen choose for you. The speakers are the most important choice since it’s the only component that will emit sound and probably the one with which you have or will have the more intimate connection. That said, I dont want to play the salesman and would say listen to as many as you can, and look also carefully at the implementation and the room to compare. So many good speakers can be so badly implemented... The ones I would add here are Sonus Faber, Tannoy, Piega, Proac, deVore, Harbeth for a few. I own several speakers over 10K and also over 30K, and the best speakers below 10K which I have personally heard, compared and ultimately purchased are the XTZ Divine Alpha. I put them at least on par with the BW800D3. Plays well in small rooms as well, with tuning possibilities, but not sure if and where you can demo them in US though... Remember, the best speaker doesn't have the best highs, or lows, or mids, or definition, it has the best compromise of everything that makes listening always a pleasure. Finally, should you find the ones that speak to you but you're just not sure because bass is lacking, well subwoofers can be added later for your near total and perfect pleasure, and it's not against the religion. All the best! Hit the road Jack |
Ieales, thank you so much for sharing your expertise, and the links and recommendations provided. They will help provide direction. I have considered sending my DQ-10s to Regnar to be rebuilt and have spoken to them twice, including inquiring about the DQ-89W’s. I finally decided that constantly doing repairs and upgrades on forty plus year old equipment is fighting a losing battle. Parts availability and no experience doing electronics repair myself are limiting factors. If I have to take apart and fix my aesthetically pleasing old Bang and Olufsen Beogram 4002 turntable one more time, I think I’ll scream. It’s time to bite the bullet and start anew. Time marches on whether we like it or not. I’ll research all your links and will heed your advice and warnings. Mountainsong, thank you for your recommendation on the Gamut. I never heard of that one either. Jetson, Good advice on taking notes. I’m planning on doing exactly that. Headphonedreams, I’ve added the Boenicke’s to the list. There are apparently an endless supply of $10,000 loudspeakers out there I’ve never heard of. Thanks for the suggestion. Mac1523 your suggestions on the Mac XR100’s and Martin Logans are now on the list too. Appreciate everyone’s guidance. With all the hurricane induced rain today might be a good day to organize all your suggestions and recommendation on speakers and listening locations. I’ve learned a lot already from all your help. Would somewhat please clue me in on what the audio term "squids" denotes. I tried googling it but only found overly technical, or aquatic explanations. Thanks, Michael. |