I didn't know about the rebate. Thanks a lot! Looks like a 30% Tax Credit.
Resolving Hum with Battery Back-up (EcoFlow) vs Power Conditioners: success vs failure
This is an updated post of a post that I asked to be deleted as it became too toxic, and frankly I made mistakes that did not settle down the discussion – but inflamed it - which no one wants.
It is a good topic that generated lots of debate which I summarized in the below to help others with a common sound issue – hum.
This worked for me, but the discussion led me to one conclusion.
The One Certainty of Audio Use Case Testing:
Before I walk through what I tested over 4 months I will reinforce one thing. This is technology use case management – and there is only one certainty:
What works for one, even if it looks like the exact same use case, may not work for another.
This is why this hum is so maddening. I wish that it was as simple “it is a ground loop” or “bad wiring” … “do this” and fix it. So many times the successes of others had ZERO impact on me.
So as you read – take away this. If I reject it, it is not because it did not work for you.
I rejected it, because something in my use case is different than yours, so it did not work for me. For others, they should try it – might work for them.
Which brings me to the trolls (I accuse NO ONE of this - this is a future statement): Please offer an opinion and “what worked for you” but keep your certainty and affiliated condemnation to yourself. If I rejected it because it did not work for me or chose not to do it - we all have choice.
I solved it for myself and am in marginal gains land but am glad to debate approaches - which is the point of the thread.
There is NO certainty – and anyone who gets high and mighty is displaying audiophile hubris which makes people hate these thread.
For trolls, please keep your commentary accretive to the discussion – offer new items to debate, suggestions, challenge the premise or testing – and refrain from derogatory comments. Things like “I don’t know why you posted this” or “you are a complainer” or “stubborn for not doing what I say” – keep it to yourself. Debate, question, test – but please lets keep this cordial and not toxic.
I will commit to the same - cordially responding to discussion - debate - suggestions or admit that I did not test that or will not test it (as I resolved it for myself).
That way a reader in this community who has this issue can gain many perspectives.
This inspiration for this post:
I had a hum (very noticeable) on a new system – only on the tube part of a hybrid tube/SS amp - for 4 months that drove me nuts and nothing I read or advice I received helped. I also had an issue with the sub due to power issues (resolved also).
The inspiration to summarize this came from this very well written comment in the OP from @gnaudio - I really hope he reposts it - it was an amazing read and made the point:
Moral of “my” story is many of these companies are small, not large, and make mistakes in their designs and in some cases their poor execution results in massive problems for the uneducated that buy their products based on their claims. I’ve also had some great advice on this and other forums but the “buy the $5k power cable and the $12k power conditioner” are not always the solution but are often touted heavily in these forums. Be careful where you drop large coin in this industry, many of these companies are not run by or have their equipment designed by true engineers. Most are very small companies. For some of us, these downfalls can result in very challenging and unwanted projects.
Reading his journey with his $250K+ system .. it made mine look easy and made me realized the conclusion above.
There is no “right way” to do it. There is no “magic bullet”.
There is only trial and error, and how far are you willing to go to get rid of that damn hum.
My summary – this worked.
My recommendation if you have a hum, or sound issue (and are frustrated) … go to Costco, buy an EcoFlow, and return it with no hassle if it does not solve the issue.
These units start at $1K and scale. Check out CES 2024 … littered with new whole home battery back-up systems – all kinds of different sizes, shapes and price points. CES video summary here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLb5FB-Rqog.
I bought the EcoFlow Deltra Pro Ultra as it has a new Lithium battery that is safer, lower heat so the fans are silent. Ecoflow Delta Pro has noisy fans as it is old battery tech.
How Did I Find Battery as a Solution to Hum? (Testing is detailed below)
For me, discussions with dealers, bad support from McIntosh, extensive reading and a myriad of testing did not get rid of the hum. Sonus Faber was also unable to resolve their issue with the Gravis VI (1800W amp).
By luck, I landed on this post on battery technology and StromTank .. sine waves and the power of batteries. Specifically, this article:
https://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0218/Stromtank_S2500_Battery_Power_Review.htm
I was considering it as it was 4 months of pain, had invested an insane amount into my system, but the price for a StromTank is outrageous (I am sure the engineering is amazing but I could not bring myself to do it) ..at which point I came across this older post:
The Audio Impact of Solar Panels and Battery Backup: Comparing Sound Quality of Panels, Batteries, and the Grid
Which .. voila .. solved my issues in one fell swoop.
99.95% no hum.
I will not claim 100%, but it is near perfect and I have entered into the “marginal gains” realm where additional effort does not yield a commensurate benefit.
For me, which I detail below, my journey was:
- Systems plugged into the wall: Crazy hum via the tubes on the MC451s. Nothing on solid state side (It is a hybrid amp). Loud.
- Myriad of power conditioners: Hum still there. (Trouble shooting below). Still loud.
- Different testing (ground loop..etc.): Hum still there. (See below).
- EcoFlow installed. 99.95% resolution.
- Niagara 5000 added back in behind the EcoFlow. The .05% does not go away at all.
Solution to 99.95% eliminate hum:
- EcoFlow Delta Pro Ultra in minimum config – 7.2kW output … 7200 watt output beast up to 21,000 Watts in max config, plugged into 20AMP dedicated line.
- MC451s (which have the tube hum) plugged direct into EcoFlow, all other units plugged into Niagara 5000 (I own it for now even though it has no value – more on that below).
Use Case:
System: McIntosh end-to-end although tested with NAD M17V2i and M28 amp also (no hum).
The hum came from a pair of brand-new MC451s. These are hybrid 450W amps – 100W tube for midrange and tweeter, 300W solid state for bass. These are bi-amped to Sonus Faber Amati G5s – 4 ohms.
Testing variables included Nordost Blue Heaven (cable and XLR), Tyr 2 (cable and XLR), and final config of Valhalla 2 speaker cables and XLRs. Final power cable is Audience 3m Front Row. Other cables trialed – generic XLRs and speaker cables different AWGs, Front Row audience XLRs and speaker cables, iFi power cables, generic power cables (I have boxes and boxes of cables ready to sell on Audio Mart .. and my useless Niagara 5000).
The amps are attached to MX123 and C12000. The C12000 drives them in stereo mode (attached to a HiFi Rose 150B .. although that is neither here nor there as the “hum” is best heard when nothing is played). It operates in passthru when the MX123 is driving blu-ray, or other appliances (gaming systems, apple TV). There is NO cable (important for groundloop).
Other amps in the system – driving other Sonus Faber Olympica Nova I, II speakers and a 1800W Gravis VI sub. MC257, MC462, MI254 for atmos. All solid state (Zero hum ever).
Power conditioners tested include AudioQuest Niagara 5000, Torus, iFi, TrippLite. Also used UPCs. The only extended testing was with the Niagara 5000 as I bought that one early on .. and the iFi but it is more of a very expensive power bar. Others were bought and returned if the hum did not go away within hours. Also trialed NoHum plugs, plug adapters without the ground, etc.
Testing process to eliminate the hum:
1. The hum is from your systems not being broken in – rejected.
The 2 MC451s and G5 speakers were new. Was told it might go away after they are broken in for 100 hours. I ran them for 100 hours straight while travelling – it did not.
It was not until much later in my testing that I had the “ah-ha” that the solid-state amps and the SS side of the hybrid MC451 did not have a hum (As they are bi-amped).
2. Ground loop – rejected via turning off all breakers but the dedicated 20AMP and disconnecting all non-core electronics.
This is where everything starts and there is a lot posted on ground loops. My conclusion was the only way to really eliminate this was by turning off the entire house (below).
Unfortunately, this is where the McIntosh support started and stopped as they refused to help beyond a generic word document on ground loops. They just finger pointed and told me to get other people to help me. Very disappointing after making such a big investment with them.
I came up with an alternative to “unplug every piece of electronics and then plug them in across the entire house one by one till the hum comes back” approach (which made my head hurt).
I started by turning off all breakers in the house other than to the dedicated 20amp for the sound system. If the hum was gone, I had a ground loop and would have to go through the one-by-one approach. If it was not gone, ground loop was not an issue.
I turned off all breakers, unplugged all non-core systems (Apple TV, HiFi Rose, etc.), as I do not have a cable box that was easy to eliminate, and then ran 3 systems. C12000 and the 2 amps.
Hum was still there.
I then – via a 10AWG/3 industrial shielded extension cord, tested on another 20AMP dedicated line (kitchen – with all appliances disconnected) and other plugs around the house (switching breakers on and off).
Hum was still there.
This approach conclusively eliminated ground loop as an issue.
3. Bad grounding – rejected.
Tested receptacles with Sperry ground and GFCI tester (Went around the residence as I was curious).
Very straight forward – wired properly.
A suggestion was made that a 8’ grounding rod will help.
- My experience with highly sensitive electronics (non-audio) is that 12’ is the minimum.
- Maybe. I am not doing this.
Last - Certified electricians were used for wiring. This is a ~2-year-old residence that is high end. This was not a DYI scenario.
4. DC blocking – rejected.
Used the iFi DC blocker to test this. No impact on the hum.
5. You have a serious grounding issue or wiring issue. Your family is at risk of dying in a fiery blaze.
- No breakers are flipping.
- I have smoke detectors and CO detectors.
- I have been in houses where breakers flip. In one I had to swap out for a 200A panel, in another it was knob and tube .. as I renovated a 110-year-old home. This is a well wired home and I have worked with many electricians, having installed multiple pools and as I always have tonnes of electronics in the home.
- My view is this added safety in the home. By putting the biggest stack of power drawing technology onto the EcoFlow, I have added a great layer of safety. Each Delta Pro Ultra Inverter can be connected with up to five 6 kWh lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries to form an inverter and battery stack.LiFePO4 (this is their new tech) are the safest type of lithium battery because they are not prone to overheating and even if they’re punctured, they won’t catch on fire. The cathode material is also non-hazardous and therefore it poses no environmental or negative health hazards.
- The new battery type is also why it is quieter than the EcoFlow Delta Pro (old battery type).
6. You are just band-aiding, you are not getting to root cause. You have a wiring issue, or grounding issue.
Perhaps. Things I did not do because I am happy with the EcoFlow solution:
- Replacing what I consider new wiring. See Steve Huff posts – not guaranteed to work.
- I did not upgrade my wall plugs to gold plated (which might work).
- Working with the power company as there was one post talking about how a transformer down the street had a bad ground. Possibly, but I do not have the time to do that or the will to even try. Ugh. The power company.
- Different types of industrial inverters
- Adding in a grounding rod
BTW, before a troll posts “You are being stubborn for not doing these”, I will remind all that there are no guarantees.
The PURPOSE of this post is to share for others to learn.
I fixed it with the EcoFlow and I am confident that my residence is VERY safe.
Others can try these if they want.
7. Your amp is defective. Replace the tubes - rejected
There are 2 MC451s. Both are new.
I thought of that. I rejected as it is so incredibly unlikely that both are faulty. Plus, they are 133lbs (60KG) each – just the idea of moving them hurts my back.
Last, all the solid states do not have the issue – including the SS side of the MC451.
I believe that my conclusion that this is a tube sensitivity issue is accurate.
8, Buy high end power cables for the amps – rejected.
I am firmly in the camp that power cables make zero difference beyond a certain .. very low .. price. Read across the internet and you will see this battle raging and much engineering support.
I have and tested traditional power cables, heavy duty, iFi Quasars and in the end … bought Audience Front Row cables for all systems ranging in length from 1m to 3m (length made no difference either).
This is where I allowed my own confirmation bias and aesthetic appeal to reign. That is the only reason why I bought them.
It had zero impact. for me.
9. What if the XLR (interconnect) is disconnected from the MC451s to isolate the amp?
The hum is still there. Isolating it to the tubes on the MC451s and sensitivity to the noise in the power – versus the pre-amps.
The hum is not there on the solid-state side.
The fact that these are hybrids and that I have other amps is a real boon to testing theories.
Which brings me to XLRs (interconnects). No impact. I have Nordost Blue Heaven, Tyr2, Valhalla 2, Audience Front Row and a myriad of other interconnects at different price points below the Blue Heaven.
No impact on the hum.
Now on sound? Again, as the war on cables across many forums indicates, this is a highly contested area. My opinion is this:
When I trialed a Blue Heaven versus a Valhalla 2 playing Kashmir by Marcin on SF Amati G5s I heard the difference. Confirmation bias or not, at 1:40 there is this crescendo that feels like it is sucking the sound out of the room.
But did not change the hum.
10. Power Conditioner will improve sound, eliminate hum – rejected (Inconsistent – works for some, snake oil marketing for me).
Frankly, having read far and wide on the issues of power, I am convinced that one person’s success is another person’s snake oil as the variables in solving a problem are so many.
I tried AudioQuest Niagara 5000 (sadly I bought this one), Torus, iFi, NoHum plugs, and nothing removed the hum.
These 2 posts are conclusive evidence for me by Steve Huff – and I believe it reinforces my initial conclusion that there is no silver bullet and what works for some .. does not work for others.
Two years of hell, PS Audio P20 solved it. Rewired the entire house … and that fixed nothing:
Then went a different route with Puritan:
https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2022/11/12/puritan-audio-psm-156-is-worth-its-weight-in-gold/
As per the opening, this is a classic technology use case management. In a complex ecosystem of technologies, which leads to near infinite variables, any claim that “something will work” is wrong - the variables are too great.
Which – at the core is why the power conditioner market is so contentious. What works for one, does not work for another.
This is also why their marketing really ticks people off (including me). ALL I WANTED WAS A SOLUTION. I wanted a magic bullet! And for anyone who says, “power conditioners do not claim to fix hum”, oh contraire:
From TrippLite: What benefits can I expect from a Power Conditioner?
- Protect sensitive electronic equipment from damage or data loss
- Improve the quality of audio recording or playback by removing line noise that causes "hum"
- Extend the life of equipment containing electronic circuits
From AudioQuest Niagara 5000:
The Niagara 5000 features our patented AC ground noise dissipation system, the industry’s widest bandwidth linearized AC filter, and our unique passive / active transient power correction circuitry.
Puritan Master Series: (not tried)
Washing machines, fridges, computers, plug in power supplies, low energy lighting, dimmer switches, heating pumps, thermostats, solar power installations, the list of culprits directly injecting rubbish into our mains supply is endless. Effectively anything connected to the mains in your house and all of your neighbours houses contributes to the problem. And that is before you consider more distant heavy industrial machinery, and it doesn’t stop there…..
Rebalances the AC sine wave, removing all DC components, this enables transformers to work efficiently and quietly, realising their full dynamics and power range .. Star earthing plan eliminates ground loop hum, reduces the noise floor, improves definition … Multiple, cumulative, sympathetically tuned stages of purification (39 independent elements) substantially remove all interference types …. Cleansed earth removes noise from the earth line further enhancing clarity and dynamics
I then started to read engineering reviews like this one on the Niagara 1200 which concluded:
If you want to spend $1000 on a sturdy box with surge protection, go ahead. But please don’t assume it does something for your sound. It does not.
Or PS Audio power conditioning:
In my opinion, it is a waste of technical talent to be building such products. I see no reason to recommend PS Audio Stellar PowerPlant 3.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ps-audio-powerplant-3-review.39857/
Steve Huff – PS Audio P20 regeneration and Puritan worked for him.
I come back to my opening conclusion – what works for one, might not work for another. There are no silver bullets.
The only thing that worked for me was the EcoFlow and with beefy 7200W minimum output, it can handle a lot of load which brings me to a tangential issue that I also solved.
Sonus Faber 1800W Gravis VI side bar:
Of interest, the one issue my Niagara 5000 did solve was a product defect in the Sonus Faber Gravis VI. It is a 1800W sub - and occasionally it went "insane". (I have the videos .. they had never seen this before).
It would just go nuts (loudly). When this happened, pulling the XLR would not stop it - it was an internal "go nuts" and the only way to stop it was to unplug it.
They had no idea what was going on and in fact replaced it (which was a huge pain as the thing is massive) - and it kept happening. I concluded that if it did not get a full draw when it needed it at peak - that it would go nuts. I told them this – they did not even try to test it which I was disappointed by. Use case testing is what they should do!
The Niagara 5000 has a power well with a 90A reserve. While I was doing the whole hum thing, I theorized that the reserve would solve this. It did.
When I direct plugged the sub into the EcoFlow it also solved this problem as it is a beast serving up power – 7.2kW (7200 watt) minimum. I was able to replicate the issue with certain scenes in Blu-Rays.
So I just have to get around to unplugging and selling the Niagara as the EcoFlow serves as a surge protector … essentially making it useless in my config.
Caveat: StromTank.
I bet that works. It is a fancy battery .. built for audio. I bet it is awesome.
But I am not paying that price. Sorry.
In the meantime, my EcoFlow works great and the solar/battery industry (As seen at CES) is expanding massively making the audio market look like a speck of sand in comparison. This area will only get better and better.
11. But how good is the EcoFlow inverter?
EcoFlow sounds great to me. As I said, it is now 99.95%.
If a better inverter were put in front of the battery, would it be better? No idea. That is the essence of the StromTank .. audio quality components.
The Niagara 5000 in-front of the EcoFlow did not get me to 100%. At times I can hear a little niggle hum. But close enough for me.
12. I thought that power conditioners should never be used on amps as they ruin sound?
That seems to be the consensus.
The one piece of interesting advice from McIntosh was that in their reference system (which has a tonne of amps), everything is plugged right into the wall. I had several people say that too me.
This is the fundamental advice from many – rewire your dedicated line. But as the Steve Huff experience proves, that is not guaranteed either. He did it and still had the problem as it could be the power coming into the house. He also went over to his mom’s house and the noise disappeared.
In my opinion, plugging it into the EcoFlow allows me to do what McIntosh recommended. It is just like plugging it into the wall (and if I pull the 20AMP cord out of the EcoFlow, it is running on pure battery for testing).
Summary.
There is no silver bullet.
Power issues are a nightmare.
If you have sound issues, here is a long list of things to try including an EcoFlow (or other solar battery system).
The best thing about the EcoFlow? If it does not work … return it to Costco.
It worked for me.
82 responses Add your response
@uberk I finally hooked up The EcoFlow Ultra Yesterday. Did all the updates and such. I set it up to run my audio system for 3.5 hours in the evening. I have it set to charge after midnight for 4 hours if needed. I have the smart panel/charger set at 3600 watts max. You and @ricevs were right the difference in sound quality is significant when using battery power. The Ecoflow package is one great system. |
@dolfan there are extensive settings for when to charge, etc. Their app is great. The only oddity I found was the slow charge vs fast charge. You cannot have slow charge on if drawing power.
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@maxdukecapone tonnes of bias with out testing .. and yes, we all want to justify our purchases. Have a house full of that (smile).
1. Works great. No hum. 2. I only run it on battery power - as I want it "pure". Running an Ecoflow Delta Pro Ultra with 2 batteries - so a tonne of power. At night it charges from midnight till 6AM - fast. Significant improvement in the battery also as it is silent - unlike the previous generation - due to the newer battery (doesn't run as hot). With 2 batteries in the bank - that is a long runtime even with 5 McIntosh power hog amps, pre-amp, C12000 pre-amp, and the Hifi Rose. 3. Still convinced my Niagara 5000 isn't doing anything. But don't feel like the hassle of unplugging it. Have thought about buying a PS Audio regenerator as it does clean the wave. In the end .. if I was truly mad with absolutely no financial inhibitions ... I would put everything on a Stromtank. But their prices are insane. I intend on running the next house on a battery (recharged at night) top-to-bottom. I like the EcoFlow but Goal One and others have also come out with their next ten lithium ion batteries. Works fantastic. |
It took longer for your to write a negative comment then it would have been to google my suggestions. Give it a try. Aurender W20SE Battery-powered magic – A silent background Battery-Powered Reference Digital Output Network Transport with USB, Dual-AES/EBU, Coaxial, BNC and Optical Outputs + Word Clock Input |
There are?
Usually the battery's sole purpose is to ensure an orderly OS shutdown when powered off. Which Aurender or Esoteric components do you think rely on battery power, @maxdukecapone? |
Your post was interesting as I was researching battery backups for audio. Components. Many high-end audio will have a model where they use a battery to clean up power. Aurender and Esoteric come to mind. Those are usually the top models, too. Do you have any further comments after some run time? Specifically, run time? Does charging while (if you do this) using introduce unwanted noise. Do you still think the inverter is producing some clean power after some more operation experience? Thanks for putting yourself out there for potential criticism. I was going to ask people opinions but was afraid I would not be able to separate biases from factual input. Everyone wants to justify their purchases …… including me.
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@dolfan .. the app is great. You absolutely can create custom power settings like when to charge, etc. Share when you set it up to compare. |
@jji666 not sure how. Per the OP this is causing the hum on the tube half of a hybrid MC451 - nothing on any other components. Furthermore, per the OP and to dispel a number of comments like that: 1. Ground is tested fine (See OP) 2. No ground loop (per OP) 3. DC blocking did nothing (Per OP) This is a single component resolution. |
@benanders The only "regrettable" statement is that I provided an opinion on a vendors employee - which several people then mentioned by name and pointed out positives. Therefore, I asked the moderator to remove it as it was wrong (of me) to mention that person. I should not have done that. The moderator - as that is their job - made the decision to remove it. Everything else - I stand by my testing, my statements and was more than capable of taking on those who trolled versus adding value to the discussion. |
Anyone who understands and respects what research is should generally not request a thread be eliminated for sake of regretting his/her own comments within it, once other posters have made significant contributions of their time and knowledge. Disclaimer: I don’t think I had posted anything in the previous rendition of this thread, but like many readers, I found meaningful input by others that I trusted would not necessitate digital backup. Egg on my face and anyone else who yet again trusted the same to be reminded otherwise. It is purely my opinion that requesting an entire thread be stricken from the record, only to immediately reinvigorate it, seems rather entitled behavior. That’s not worded to be a jab, but if it hurts any feelings then it’s probably worth thinking about from an introspective angle. |
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The EcoFLow battery is an expensive solution that does not solve the underlying problem. The EcoFlow battery unit, though less than a Strombank, is still thousands of dollars.
I am always pleased to see jea48 posting on this forum. He is usually right on the money with his advice when it comes to electrical issues.
For many years, I had hum issues with tube amps and toroidal transformers. Power conditioners did not stop the hum. I don’t know if the power company would have come to investigate an audiophile’s tube amp problem, but one day, there was a power outage. The power company traced the issue to a corroded cable at my transformer substation. They replaced the cable. Since then, I have not had any hum issues. Problem completely solved. Cost to me: Zero.
Since then, I have tried different power conditioners – balanced, filtered, and regeneration. I can hear the differences in my system. My preference in my system is for balanced power conditioners. |
Mother Earth does not possess some magical, mystical, power that sucks nasties from an audio system. The NEC (National Electrical Code) requires the AC electrical system in our homes shall be a grounded system. The NEC requires the electrical service entrance neutral conductor shall be connected to mother earth at the first disconnecting means. (The Grounding Electrode System.) The most common method used to connect the neutral to earth is the Ground Rod. By connecting the service entrance neutral conductor to earth it becomes the Grounded Conductor. The main purpose for connecting the electrical service to Earth is for lightning protection. The lower the ground rod to soil resistance the better for diverting a near by lightning strike to earth. NEC also requires the Grounded Conductor to be bonded, connected, to the metal enclosure of the service equipment, electrical panel. This becomes the Equipment Ground, the Equipment Grounding System. All metal enclosures of hard wired equipment must be connected to the equipment ground. The EGC (Equipment Grounding Conductor) for all branch circuit wiring must be connect to the equipment ground in the electrical panel. At play inside our homes it’s the EGC ground, not the mother earth ground connection that can have an impact on the sound quality of an audio system. Remember the Grounded Conductor, (Neutral) and the branch circuit EGC conductor are connected together at the main electrical panel. Mother earth is not involved. For a piece of audio equipment that uses the EGC from the wall outlet there will be ideally a zero voltage reference to the neutral conductor that feeds the piece of equipment. (At the other end of the branch circuit wiring in the electrical panel they are connected together). Got to be zero volts at the equipment right? (Note the only place the EGC is connected to the current carrying neutral conductor is at the service equipment, electrical panel... At no place there after can they be connect together) . "For a piece of audio equipment that uses the EGC from the wall outlet there will be ideally a zero voltage reference to the neutral conductor that feeds the piece of equipment." Well not exactly. It’s not a perfect World. There are factors that can cause a difference of potential, voltage, between the neutral conductor and the EGC. One is VD (Voltage Drop) caused by the connected load on the branch circuit wiring. In this case there will be a VD on both current carrying conductors. Half of the total VD on each conductor. The voltage measurement from the neutral contact at the wall outlet (The load is connected to) to the EGC ground contact is the VD measured from the panel end of the neutral conductor to the load end of the neutral. The voltage is not caused by the EGC. The EGC is nothing more than an extension of the volt meter test probe lead. The VD is being measured from end of the neutral conductor to the other end. In this instance the measurement from the neutral to the EGC really doesn’t mean much. I can’t see how it would have any impact on the sound of an audio system. Next is an actual voltage on the EGC. This is caused by an induced voltage onto the EGC by the electromagnetic fields of the Hot and neutral current carrying conductors. The bigger the connected load the stronger the EM fields. What causes the voltage to be induced, transferred, onto the EGC? The wrong type of branch circuit wiring used and or the wrong wiring installation method(s) used. This is what can cause ground loop hum problems or ac noise on the EGC that is dumped on the chassis of audio equipment. As for this:
No, No No... Dangerous as heck. In the event of a ground fault event the fault would energize the ground rod with 120V. The breaker at the electrical panel will never trip. Even if the ground fault is a bolted fault where the Hot conductor is in solid contact with the chassis of a piece of equipment. There is just too much resistance in the earth for there to be enough current to travel back to the source and cause enough current to trip the breaker. Simple OHMS LAW. Real dangerous,.. is the area around the Hot 120V energized ground rod. If the grass is wet from rain or even a heavy dew a pet walking in close proximity of the ground rod could be electrocuted. Same for child or adult. . The problem is not the EGC. The problem is the type of wiring used for the branch wiring and the wiring method(s) used for installing the branch circuit wiring. And again mother earth is not involved. If anything mother earth can make things worse. Here are a couple of videos for you to watch:
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T'hanks for posting @tvad .. in the end I bet that is what it is. I will only be in this residence for another year or so. To @jea48 fair point. I am not going to go on that journey as I have resolved it to my satisfaction. In the next residence, I will erect a battery barrier (Either Tesla power walls or something like the EcoFlow) to protect from outside things - including whole home surge (I detest having UPSs around the house as we have a lot of electronics). |
All is well until it’s not. Food for thought. All those appliances found in your home have micro processors in them. Your air conditioning equipment as well as the heating equipment has micro processors. The AFCI, GFCI, combination GFCI/AFCI , breakers in the electrical panel(s) in your home have a micro processor in them. TVs, the list goes on and on. IF you have high excessive harmonics on the AC mains caused by a loose and or corroded connection on the electrical wiring feeding your house things will start failing. Your house is new. Give it a few years... If there is a problem it could be on the load side of the electric meter. You own that. That makes it your problem. If you used Vinegar instead of honey when talking to the Utility power Company I am not sure what you can do now. Best of luck though, Jim |
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HA. No. Software, cloud, etc. I live in an area with unreliable power. Outages, brownouts, etc. Hence why I do not bother with the power company @jea48 @cleeds .. as service is not something they provide. Having had an issue before, I am not up for that battle. I want the battery backup for work from home, etc. And no. Not an environmentalist - although I do like the solar stuff (Have used it on my different salt water pool installs - but that is a different type of solar) |
@dill my question was and has always been - how do I fix it? I just want to listen to my system with no hum. I found the solution (99.95%). On "why"? Read Steve Huffs journey .. read what others have posted. There are so many areas to pursue. My working theory is there is something wrong with the power. As I have eliminated a host of things posted in the discussions - ground loop, move it to other plugs, 20AMP vs 15AMP, dedicated (it is on a dedicated line), grounding (which tests that all plugs are well grounded) .. I get to my point on marginal gains. To get that extra 1% or .05% of additional sound quality (there is a tiny hum at times) .. requires a lot more effort. The EcoFlow solved my issue. So I am happy. And I have no doubt, when I move this to another residence, that there is a chance that the power is different and his issue may not exist at all. (fingers crossed). |
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That’s exactly what I did when I bought my house and found all sorts of electrical issues, including low voltage. And while there’s no love between me and the electric utility, those who work there are just people and when treated politely they help as best they can. The OP may very well have a grounding issue that is external to his home and could possibly be repaired at no cost to him. But - for some inexplicable reason - he just doesn’t want to go there:
The OP is also convinced that his $1 million+ home can’t possibly have any electrical wiring defect. But as with cars, price is no guarantee against defects. His new home surely comes with a home warranty, so it’s odd he doesn’t have an independent expert take a look at the installation and definitively determine the quality of the install. My approach to problems is usually to try to get to the root cause. The OP seems to prefer finding workarounds. They're very different approaches. |
@OP. Reducing this to it's simplest, there is something related your mains power that the tube half of your McIntosh amps don't like. In general valve (tube) amps are more susceptible to hum issues. The fact that modern tubes are generally less well made than those from the fifties and sixties doesn't help. Given all the potential causes you've eliminated, there is a definite possibility that a bad transformer in the external mains system is a causative factor. I'm surprised that you are not countenancing taking this up with the power company. Using a battery power supply to address the issue you have is a panacea, but it would be nice to find an actual cure for it. PS @carlsbad2, thanks for the information on the effect of wind turbines and solar panels on the stability of the grid. Very informative. |
@uberk what is your dayjob? You sound like you are in the battery backup business trying to sell everyone on it. Or are you overly enamoured with the green movement? You’re about to spend $20K or more to solve a probem you could fix for $5k with a simple regnerator. That is the reason most audiophiles use that solution. It is simple and cost effective. I also see a big PITA in that you always have to go turn off your charger when you want ot listen. It could be automated on a timer but it has to be totally disabled when you are listening otherwise you are just powering with the charger. Jerry |
@carlsbad2 as you have a PS Audio regenerator. In the Steve Huff journey above - he had a P20 then went to Puritan. I am curious what you think of that thread? BTW. I am a technologist. Therefore having the sine wave graph alone is intriguing (your pic) |
To your point @zlone there is so much written about that - which is another reason why I will have an electrician in to wire up a monster bank of EcoFlows to pull me right off the grid for direct power, with the batteries being recharged by the grid in the evening at a lower cost. So during the day running it all off the batteries. To get more predictable, the surge protection and the lower recharge costs.
@carlsbad2 everything is better with a glass of wine is probably an excellent axiom that I would wager few would dispute. |
@carlsbad2 Thanks for the follow up. Agreed that the Sunday night thing could all be in our heads, but it is such a universal phenomena it is worth looking for both physical and mental causes. |
@dolfan that is awesome. My experience too. There are many others over on this thread (which is where I learned about this) who have the same experience living in marginal areas or areas with bad weather. The added benefit is: 1. Lower power costs (because you can recharge in the evening) 2. Whole home surge protection 3. Battery backup for brownouts or blackouts. Tesla powerwall, Ecoflow, GoalZero and others are innovating at an incredible pace - really interesting technology. I eliminated all the UPSs on PCs too. It is a huge industry that will get better and batter. |
@erik_squires then we will agree. From my perspective I have gone as far as I can as I will not pursue the power company. I also might have tubes that are - frankly - too sensitive for the power. But I have spent months resolving this and now its s a case of marginal gains - and for the record as I posted - it is 99.95% resolved.
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@tonywinga clearly outlined how he had great results. For me, they made claims, I did not get them across multiple products and my reading (Such as the audio science tests) have me at that conclusion. That being said - as I said in my opening conclusion. One persons gold, can be another person’s coal. @cleeds This is an opinion - and others are welcome to have a different opinion. I get your point, I just do not agree.
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I disagree. The above proves it is not DC, not grounding, not grounding loop. Among other things. I would encourage you to read Steve Huff's articles. He did what @erik_squires suggested and rewired his house (because it is old - mine is not), and he did not have a dedicated 20AMP line (I do) ... and it did nothing. There is no silver bullet. What works for one, does not work for another is my conclusion. So we will agree to disagree.
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Welcome back @erik_squires. As you will see in the OP, I have gone through extensive diagnostics and steps to troubleshoot. I do not "refuse" to consider that there is a power issue, in fact there is something wrong with the power. But it is not ground - that has been tested. The reports came back fine.
I disagree. The power conditioners, make claims (outlined clearly in the OP) and they do not live up to those claims. They are specifically there to resolve power issues. (Please read the quoted text from the power conditioners). If they are not there to fix problems - that they claim to fix - what are they for?
Please refrain from quoting when I did not say that. I spent considerable time researching it.
As I put above, in this regard, you are just wrong. You are telling me what I did not do - when in fact I did. Please read the OP before wrongly stating what was and what was not done. 1. Move amp to different leg. See point #2 2. Shut down all circuit. See point #2. That is how I eliminated grounding loop.
A. You have a bad amp. Please see point #7 B. That is what is clearly outline in the OP above. Are you reading the OP before posting? Please take the time to read the post before posting items that have been covered. Last.
I know there is a power problem. That is what the whole point of this OP is. If there was not a power problem - why would I post. I just reject replacing all the wiring as the ground is good, and it is on a dedicated line, and in the end, I found a solution. Further pursuits is in fact - margin gains. Please take the time to read what was done before posting what has been covered. Thanks - we want to keep this cordial and non-toxic. A thread where people can agree to disagree - as I do with "some" of your points.
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Now, getting out of the technical, and trying to assess where the OP’s logic goes awry it is in the refusal to believe he made a mistake very early on: "I have a power problem and therefore a very expensive power conditioner should fix it no matter what kind of power problem I'm having." If you refuse to believe this assumption was incorrect, then you must blame the devices you purchased for being "flawed" and everything else is just running around in circles so you don’t have to admit an early mistake made by an inexperienced person working out of their skill set. Your posts are a desire for validation that you were not wrong, the products are at fault. Good luck with that. The moment you say "I was led astray by my own lack of knowledge, and salespeople" then the rest of the conversation ceases to be needed.
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@carlsbad2 interesting graph, thanks for posting. Guessing that flat top is the bogeyman for a lot equipment. Question, how does that graph look on Sunday night at 10:30? Does it ever clean up? |
So let me see if I can boil this down. While I’m glad you found a solution, and I believe you when you say you found a solution, your own description of the problem seems to fail to recognize the original issue that led you to a very expensive path. Starting state: You have an amp which hums in your house. Diagnostic step: Remove all inputs. Results: Hum OK, this point we’ve eliminated upstream components and the possibility they induce a ground loop. Two possible conclusions: A. You have a bad amp B. You have bad power somehow Now we must take a step to discriminate between the two. Diagnostic steps implied by the above and maybe never taken: 1. Move amplifier to different leg, or building or independent power system 2. Shut down all other circuits and powered devices in home. If the hum stops with either of these two states it conclusively proves you have bad power. End of story. ================================================ By the power of reduction you have essentially proved #1, above but refuse to believe you have bad power. Somehow you’ve come to the conclusion instead that it’s not bad power and not the amp, but that you need a power conditioner to fix your not-bad power problem. Then you take the radical leap out of logic to blame most power conditioners for being ineffective for your problem. Your original post, and this one seem to say, again, "I bought a bunch of things which were never designed to fix my problem, and now I know they don’t work." So, sure, glad you fixed your problem but your thesis is flawed, and your refusal to consider that you have a power problem, despite your own work PROVING you have a power problem is just funny as hell.
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Just because these products weren't effective for you does not mean that they are "snake oil." In particular, Audioquest 5000 has multiple features and produces demonstrable, repeatable results. It's not a fraudulent product, which is what "snake oil" suggests. I understand that, for whatever reasons, the power conditioners you tried didn't give you the results you sought. It clearly was frustrating but I'm glad you found a workaround. I've also suffered problems with hum - it's not uncommon in biamplified systems - but took an entirely different approach. |
I bought the Costco Ecoflow Ultra Package with Electrical Panel. Will put my audio on it as a priority circuit. We get hurricanes here so it will be able to serve more than 1 purpose. It's a backup UPS too. I remember Ricevs singing the praises of systems he heard with inverter/battery power when we discussed modding an amp for me a while back. Thank you for this thread. |
@carlsbad2 I would encourage you to try it, because you may buy it and keep it. In the end, that is what they are banking on. But I would wait until they carry the Ultra (the new batteries are safer, and much lower heat, so fan noise is low). As for driving up costs ... Costco is banking on you keeping it and if you walk in there and buy this, they also know that you will leave with a basket full of other stuff. Just ask all the people who went in to buy a brick of cheese and are leaving with a trampoline. Plus, I would be VERY curious to hear your outcome - as would others. |
In the end, that is my conclusion @kennyc If you read the article from Steve Huff on his 2 year journey or if I can convince @gnaudio to repost his insane journey which makes mine look like a walk in the party with his $250K of equipment, external engineers and electrical companies ... the power problem is not for the faint of heart if it pops up. Bet there are lots of people living with it .. as they just accept it. |
