Reel to reel

Ralph,

If no one has taken your offer of the Revox B-77, I would like it and no shipping necessary. I will drive up and pick it up myself. Will call you in next couple of days.

Thanks
Norbert

I have been down the R2R route a couple of times during the last 20 years with a pioneer rt901 and the otari 5050BL. The Otari is a much better deck with balanced input/outputs and 15ips. 10” tapes are pricey and at 15ips, it doesn’t take long to use up the tape. 15ips was the only way to go for the best SQ. My goal was to record all my vinyl. After playing around for awhile, I thought it was kind of foolish to do this. I have records from the 70’s and tape doesn’t last this long. I thought about joining a tape club but they didn’t have what I wanted and it was pricey. I did buy some prerecorded tapes at 3.75ips or 7.5ips and they sucked. So I sold them and never looked back

I understand. But for me open reel deck would make perfect sense. I don't play most of my records entirely so I have to jump and move the needle. I would make compilations. Another idea, very difficult to realize, is to find master tape dubs of the performances that were never released. Just take a listen on youtube, there is a lot more than officially released material. Pre-recorded easily available tapes, in addition to being extremely expensive, is not the music that I would listen to, perhaps with a few exceptions. No, tapes won't live as long as records but you can play them hundreds of times without any signal loss. I would sell most of my records after making recordings, except most valuable. German Audiophile Society is said to be the best place to look for rare stuff, I bet you better have connections there, any way. Legally, it is probably very much a grey area, but in any case it is seller's problem.

Agree with many before stated including the new tapes.

I recently took a plunge into R2R.
Ended up with a professionally and fully restored Otari mX5050. These decks are really great as they can run three speeds (3.75, 7.5 and 15 ips - slowest needs to be switched on the back; mine has an added opening so its easy). I also lucked out getting an AKAI 630DB with 20+ vintage reels, mostly TDK, Maxell (some Scotch and Fuji). Some of the tapes are excellent. The Akai was a bargain vs the Otari, but it plays very nicely and sounds great. There is a LOT of information out there and some decks from TEAC, Otari and Technics (1500, 1700 etc) are really great IF fully restored. It will cost you but you will be appreciating the format better and will enjoy your recordings tremendously.

One has to spend extra time on learning how to properly clean (frequently) the tape path, demagnetization, and investing in reels, tape (new tape comes in a pancake without reels). I prefer metal reels, which can be bought old and new but very costly.

Prerecorded tape, esp 15ips is very expensive, usually several times the price of new pressing LP.

Enjoy the ride - i am (and the R2R resurrected my cassette decks too)  

I used to have a Tandberg 6000X and then a Revox 77 and loved them back in the 70s. But I can't imagine anyone going open reel in 2019 unless they like the toy factor. Tape breaks, it is difficult to load, the machine is expensive to fix and has maintenance issues, head cleaning--all a nuisance. Then there is tape hiss. It's the 21st century my friend! 

I don't have "tape hiss"; evidently you were not doing proper maintenance, or bought cheap tape.

I had an AKAI that had all the problems you stated "double", but my Technics RS 1500, has been major trouble free for the last 20 years. It's been calibrated and I do maintenance frequently; clean heads, de-magnetize, and clean rollers with rubber cleaner.

With good tape, no turntable can compare; and the funny thing is, I record from the TT, and LP's sound so much better; I could write an entire page describing the improved playback, but I wont; especially since there are so many who state this is impossible.

As soon as I finish this post, I'm going to indulge in 15 IPS playback.

So long, and may the force be with you.

Here is an open letter of apology to AKAI buyers and owners; the model I had was a cheap bad one that I would not have bought if I knew what I was doing; AKAI makes better models.

orpheus 10
I could write an entire page describing the improved playback, but I wont; especially since there are so many who state this is impossible.

It is not impossible orpheus 10 for your particular situation.

When you are recording "punching" tapes you are using IEC or NAB EQ. Which EQ is it? Also remember when you are "punching" tape you are setting levels to the peak (this is important-come back to it) with NAB or IEC EQ, and playing them back on your own machine, same heads, same EQ, same levels. This is important.

Our records are cut - recorded- with RIAA Eq (treble boost/bass cut) Our phono stage puts an inverse RIAA EQ on them when you play them. The question remains for each of us - how well matched is our set up for playing back these records, since none of us are using the same type of machine that cut them. Different carts, different cart settings, different gains.....

Are each of using the best gain, cart setting when playing back records ?

orpheus 10
If you are telling us that your tape copies (high level signal) sound better, than the source LP - (low  level signal) - LP - in your room/ system; then it simply IMO indicates improvements can be made to your vinyl setup.

But hey, it sounds like you are having fun doing what you are doing, and you prefer tape, so I don’t see this happening any time soon.
That’s fine too.

A better comparison for you would be to acquire some Master dubs of actual albums you own, compare them to your lps to determine how big the delta really is.

Cheers

I will never acquire any other tapes aside from the one's I make; any time tapes are recorded and played back on the same machine, they are perfect.

The machine would have to be calibrated for someone else's tape, and it makes no sense to go through that trouble when I'm in such a narrow range of music.


I've been listening to 15 IPS, and 7.5 IPS tape all morning. While the 15 IPS is better, it's too short and too expensive, I wont be recording at that speed in the future. Brand new tape at 7.5 is good enough for me.

orpheus 10
If you are telling us that your tape copies (high level signal) sound better, than the source LP - (low level signal) - LP - in your room/ system; then it simply IMO indicates improvements can be made to your vinyl setup.

This makes "0" sense; whatever the vinyl, it is reflected on the tape playback; it's not "different".  

Someone else gave the technical reasons why it sounds better; it was related to much higher definition, the reel picks up more information from the set up.

No matter how much you improved the vinyl setup, the tape would sound better.

I have a first gen copy from the master tape of Talking Heads "True Stories" album. Honest, it is the genuine article. I also have the vinyl lp, the CD and a HIGH Def 96/24 download. With my system I can play all 4 versions at the same time. I can select from the preamp which version I would be listening to at that particular moment. Without a doubt the tape version blows away all others. I mean it is not even close. I have performed this test many times with friends and never has anyone selected anything else but the tape as the best sounding version of the music. It really is that obvious. My question is, how can the worst technically as far as distortion, bandwidth and background noise sound so much better than the far superior vinyl and digital formats?

The issue here is confusing the media with individual situations. If you recall, I had to refute the idea that there is no degradation with analog copies. There most definitely is! The first thing you have to sort out is the source of the LP. While LP is a higher performance medium, it does have its own issues. One of them is the stamper; since its Talking Heads the stamper was probably made though a 3-step process. But how many stampers were made? The first stampers made are the best sounding; like anything analog successive generations degrade; if you are on the 50th stamper its just not going to be as lively as the 1st.
Then we have to sort out the provenience of the tape that was the master for the LP mastering. The reason you have a 2nd gen copy is likely because several were made so that the LP could be mastered and pressed in several plants in the US (and overseas as well). Which plant did your LP come from? If not the country of origin, its likely not to sound as good- in the country of origin there is a feedback process where a test pressing is sent to the artist and producer to sign off on. If your LP came from somewhere else this may not have happened.

If the label was pressed for time or if they were about their usual affairs, the last thing they want to do is pay $400/hour to the mastering engineer to sort out how to make the best lacquer of the recording possible without processing. Its much cheaper to throw a compressor and mono bass processor in the signal chain (both of which will degrade the sound as they are adding distortion and reducing bandwidth); that way they minimize the LP mastering cost; they’ll get something acceptable and it won’t be the ’best’.

Of course there is the issue of your LP playback which has a lot of variables as opposed to a pro audio tape machine which arguably has less.

I can go on but I think I’ve made my point several times over. And this is why I am a fan of tape, because it does offer the opportunity to get closer to the master, and while its performance is measurably and audibly inferior to the LP, the fact is that most of the time getting closer to the master recording makes it the medium of choice.
BTW my Revox is down the road to its new owner. Thanks to all that contacted me.

I don't have "tape hiss"; evidently you were not doing proper maintenance, or bought cheap tape.

Tape hiss is inherent with all analog tape and all analog tape machines. It is caused by the random magnetic states of tape particles as they move past the playback head. If you can't hear it that's a different thing but its there nonetheless.

Ralph, I don't fully trust your hearing and your neutrality and objectivity. Tape is overall superior to any LP pressing in real world. As for theoretical possibilities, I don't know, but there is always an issue of playback. Put $200k vinyl set-up against $25k Studer and the vinyl will lose big time, not just lose.

I have a Technics RS 1500 that I modified by replacing all the electrolytic capacitors with "Black Gates", and also replacing all the transistors with new ones. Panasonic people are wonderful to do business with; while I didn't get the caps from them, they supplied the new transistors, plus new tape rollers.

As you know, the noise floor is related to the signal level, and that's where you would hear tape hiss. If the signal level is automatically higher than the noise floor, tape hiss will not be heard.

What I'm saying, is that if my music signal is strong at a low level, it will so over ride the noise floor as not to be heard. In the past, when I had that cheap AKAI, I definitely remember tape hiss. I don't know if you know about "Black Gate" capacitors, but they are definitely a game changer, and will command a higher price and a quick sale for any working component that has them.

When I was listening to playback of a brand new record, just a few minutes ago, I heard record noise, that constant low level noise during silence, but no tape hiss; I've been doing this long enough to know the difference.

This whole vinyl thing is a money making industry BS. All the big ticket tables, arms, cartridges, phono stages etc. All we need is good tape decks and good pre-recorded tapes. Even no separate preamp is needed, though external play head preamp could take it even further. Right tape with gentle handling will last for hundreds of plays and for at least 30-40 years. For archive records is a good idea but that's all.

Tbh of late I have never tried to tape any vinyl but I have taped hires streaming.
On 2 cassette decks and one r2r.

In all instances the taped replay of the hires stream sounds more alive,warmer, fuller and just more musical.

Now you can say it is distortion and that’s fine,I really do not know or care.

As to tape hiss, on my older Akai cassette I can hear slight hiss inbetween tracks at elevated levels but even in quiet passages I really cannot say as I hear any.
That is not to say it’s not there of course,just that it is not obtrusive to myself.

But even on my cheapo Sony r2r it is near impossible for me to detect any tape hiss recorded from hires streams onto Ampex tape ( all I have right now).

This has been a wonderful thread to read.  I have always loved R2R's, now I have a better idea as to why.  Thanks to all for both the technical and non-technical opinions and explanations.

Orpheus10, I have purchased a completely refurbed Otari MX5050Bii2 deck to enjoy while I refurbish my Old Faithful but aging Technics RS-1506US.  I would be most grateful if you could pass along your contact info for the good people at Panasonic.

Btw:  The gentlemen I purchased the Otari from is a pro and very approachable.  He does about 2 Otari R2R's a month.  My timing was perfect as he used 3 decks to make one pristine one, swapping parts between the 3 to make a near perfect machine.  I don't why he was so nice to me.  I'd guess it's partly due to the passion he has for refurbishing these machines.     And the asking price wasn't outrageous for such a prime example of this wonderful machine.

If anyone would like his contact info, let me know.  He has an account on the Reverb website.

Enjoy the ride while you can.  :)

Gusser, I don't recall any specific person; just contact them, and someone will lead you to where you want to go.

That Otari is a perfect deck for home use; especially when you have someone close who can work on it and get parts when you need them.

Using the Otari at 15ips, the recordings were as good as vinyl but never better. How can it get better or more info from the source? Every room at an audio show that played R2R always had a Tape Project tape, not a recording from an album. I think I heard a live recording onto R2R with very nice results.
If I wanted to record my vinyl albums today, I would get something like Pure Vinyl and record them to my computer.

"Using the Otari at 15ips, the recordings were as good as vinyl but never better. How can it get better or more info from the source?"

I assume that statement is directed to me. Since I operate in a vacuum, I assumed everyone got these same results. I also considered Otari to be better than my deck; "It ain’t necessarily so".

This statement has been directed to me so many times, that it’s not good enough to just restate my answer; consequently, I have to find answers. First, we must examine how my deck is different from all the rest.

I have all "Black Gate" electrolytic capacitors in my deck, and there are quite a few. What are Black Gate capacitors? Let us try "Google" for the answer to that question.


https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/black_gate_caps.html


https://www.partsconnexion.com/blackgate-electrolytic-capacitors.html


Could it be that all of those "Black Gate" capacitors in my deck, that are not in other decks make such a difference? While I knew they made a difference, you guys have confirmed just how big of a difference they make.

I hope that audiophile tape movement is gaining momentum. It will always probably be a limited number, but if it is a very stable - it's good. Get in touch with Germans and Japanese, they got some stuff, privileged Americans do too. Where do you think Flemming Rasmussen of Gryphon got his master tape dubs ? One reason why there are no better transistor amps than Gryphon.
 

Inna - Put $200k vinyl set-up against $25k Studer and the vinyl will lose big time, not just lose.

And you can wheel that Studer to any room you like to take on all comers. Try that with the vinyl

Inna
Put that $200k vinyl set up, against a $25k vinyl setup.
If the more expensive set up, is not set up as required, and the $25k set up is, the $25k vinyl set up can, and will out perform it. fwiw. Anyone installing uber expensive vinyl gear on a suspended wood floor is just putting up a compromised solution. Large amounts of money will need to be spent on isolation products.
Vinyl is a set up game of resonances and vibrations. The most expensive vinyl gear usually comes with set up guys for a reason.
Such is the nature of the vinyl beast.

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Ct0517 to orpheus10
If you are telling us that your tape copies (high level signal) sound better, than the source LP - (low level signal) - LP - in your room/ system; then it simply IMO indicates improvements can be made to your vinyl setup.

orpheus 10
This makes "0" sense; whatever the vinyl, it is reflected on the tape playback; it's not "different".

orpheus 10
Playing back vinyl in your room, involves a different set of parameters, outside of the vinyl signal itself entering your preamp/phonostage which you are outputting to record on tape.
From the limited information you have given us, your situation seems to be one in which your tape setup has received attention, and we have no info on your vinyl setup. You don't show a virtual system; so unless you want to tell us your vinyl gear and setup specifics, for us to get a better picture of your vinyl situation, this conversation is over.

orpheus 10
I will never acquire any other tapes aside from the one's I make; any time tapes are recorded and played back on the same machine, they are perfect.

The machine would have to be calibrated for someone else's tape, and it makes no sense to go through that trouble when I'm in such a narrow range of music.

Not sure what you mean by narrow range. If you mean genre its all out there. 
When you acquire these tapes you have a choice of tape brand, EQ (IEC or NAB), and they come with test tones so you can match peak levels.

inna

This whole vinyl thing is a money making industry BS. All the big ticket tables, arms, cartridges, phono stages etc. All we need is good tape decks and good pre-recorded tapes ...

That’s part of the problem - it’s extremely expensive to manufacture high quality pre-recorded tape, because to do that they have to be duplicated in real-time. It’s simply not a practical medium for commercial music.

What amuses me is that the tape advocates here seem to be content with simply using their decks to dub LPs. If you really want high quality recordings, why not use your deck to make your own, using real musicians? That’s where you’ll find the real magic of tape.

orpheus10

When I was listening to playback of a brand new record, just a few minutes ago, I heard record noise, that constant low level noise during silence ...

Hmmm, sounds like a noisy phono preamp perhaps, or phono setup issues. I wouldn't accept "constant low level noise" from my turntable system.

Cleeds

Last time I checked my bank account did not run to hiring Avenged Sevenfold to perform in my garage unfortunately...…...

uberwaltz

Last time I checked my bank account did not run to hiring Avenged Sevenfold to perform in my garage unfortunately ...

Understood, me neither! For that, we have CD, LP, streaming. (In any event you probably wouldn't want to record them in your garage, unless your car space has a lot better acoustics than mine.)

Of course, if Avenged Sevenfold is selling real-time tape dubs of their releases, good for them!

When I got my tape deck years ago I had every intention of recording my daughter on our upright grand piano, together with our son on acoustic guitar. And maybe me on trombone. Yeah...no jokes please.
They used to do an amazing Stairway to Heaven - separately.
But trying to get them in the same room to perform with their schedules was as easy as trying to catch our Savannah cat when she doesn’t want to be caught. Millennials......

Off topic but as Chris mentioned it.


Glad to see we are not the only exotic cat nuts here.

2 Savannah, 2 Bengal and 2 rescue moggie.

It can be " interesting" in our house at times!

In regard to the playback being better than the LP from the TT; that does seem impossible; the funny thing is, I just enjoyed it without ever thinking about it, but now that this fact is being questioned, I'm forced to think about it.

There have been many threads here about "phono-preamps". The signal from the cartridge; is that the original before it reaches the phono-pre? How many times have you read how tremendously one phono pre improved the sound over another?

On playback, the magnetic signal on the tape is the same as the signal from the cartridge that goes to the phono-preamp ,  If phono-preamps make such a difference, why not the internal amp in the reel; those amps would make the same difference as phono-preamps.

orpheus10

In regard to the playback being better than the LP from the TT; that does seem impossible; the funny thing is, I just enjoyed it without ever thinking about it, but now that this fact is being questioned, I'm forced to think about it.

That's fine. And it's fine if you prefer an LP tape dub to the LP itself. That's a legitimate preference. It's only an issue when someone states that the dub is technically superior to the LP itself.

On playback, the magnetic signal on the tape is the same as the signal from the cartridge that goes to the phono-preamp

No it isn't. The tape is made from the output of the phono preamp. It cannot recreate information lost between the LP and the phono preamp output. But again, that doesn't mean that you can't prefer the dub to the LP.

Orpheus10.  Will do on contacting Pioneer for parts for refurbishing my RS-1506.  Thanks.
gusser

benjie

Why do you think there is information lost between the LP and the phono preamp?

Using a test record and distortion analyzer, it can easily be shown that different phono preamps have varying degrees of success in retrieving what’s on an LP. And of course, no phono preamp is perfect - even the best of them add some noise and some distortion, as shown on even manufacturer’s specs.

No phono cartridge is perfect, either.

Nashville Recording Supply has it, but it’s not cheap. My Pioneer RT-701 loves Maxell and Memorex, and I’ve had very good luck buying used tape on eBay. As long as it was stored correctly, you’ll probably be ok. 

benjie

Do you also feel that there is signal loss when recording from a digital source to tape?

Do you think analog tape is a perfect, distortion-free recording medium? 

Gusser,


      https://www.turntableneedles.com/find10.asp?manfg=TECHNICS%3B%20Panasonic%3B%20National&modelnam...

The signal that comes out of the cartridge, goes to the "in" of the phono-pre; after the phono-pre amplifies this signal it leaves "out" to the "in" of the tape deck.

On playback, the signal goes from the playback head to the reel's internal amp and then out to the line amp.

The reel's internal amp is analogous to the phono-pre, and plays a part in the ultimate outcome.

I own a Tandberg 9000x and a Technics 1500, 1/4 and 1/2 track 3 speed.  I have made choral recordings using the Tandberg that sound fantastically lifelike.  I also own many direct discs, some of which were recorded with some hall ambiance and also sound lifelike.  Besides that, I have 7,000 78s which are direct discs and some of those have lifelike mid-range sound.  I've heard studio RR mastertapes that are wonderful too.  So, I have concluded that RR and disc recordings can sound fantastic.  Too bad so many of my LPs from the 70s and 80s were not as well recorded and LPs from earlier period were not necessarily well stamped or well mastered.  I have also recorded digitally 24/96 of chamber, choirs and orchestral music which sound superb.  The method of recording/reproducing is comparable to splitting hair and the resulting sound quality has more to do with execution than the format.

Anyone using 1/2" or 1" deck ? Big difference ?

Some of the best sounding mono LPs were made using 1/2" tape and/or 30 ips speed tape.  For acoustic music, the simpler the microphone setup, the better (2 or 3 mikes back in the late 50s and early 60s).  

After you level match try discerning if you just like your deck electronics or your deck electronics on recorded tape....

Created a thread in the music section so the RtR fans can post what they are listening to.... on RtR tape of course....

enjoy the music !!!!!!  

1/2" 30 ips, that's the spirit. 
But..some master tapes are really old so in certain cases your best master tape dub is original pressing record.

benjie

If analog tape is so flawed then why do recording studios and engineers keep going back to it to produce new remastered versions of albums ?

That some here have noted some of the inherent limitations of tape doesn’t mean we think it’s "so flawed." As you stated, there is no  perfect recording method.

When creating a newly remastered LP, it makes sense to start with the original analog master. No copy made from that master can be higher quality than the original. That’s not to say that you might not prefer a copy of the original, but it can’t contain musical information not present on the master.

Analog Tape is King ! Prove me wrong.

No one can prove that a preference is "wrong." You prefer analog tape, and that’s fine. I like it, too.

Here again Cleeds you are referring to my statement and my statement alone; no one else stated any thing that would incite you to make the statement;

"That’s not to say that you might not prefer a copy of the original, but it can’t contain musical information not present on the master."

While you are referring to the statement I made that the playback sounded better than the LP when recorded at 15 IPS, I did not say that there was information which was not on the LP.

It's all about the highest degree of definition; there was information on the LP which was transferred to the tape, that was not profoundly amplified by the LP playback. That's a day and night difference from information not present.