Reel to reel

Yes, I agree that the Technics 1200 is an average machine, competent but not extraordinary.  I liked it more than most machines from the 1970s and 1980s like Duals, Rotels, Miracords, BSRs, Garrards, etc.  It is a good test unit for universal use vinyl.

benjie

I go to your studio and record my music in your studio and I want it on analog tape ... I want to use that master tape that we just recorded to produce CD’s and vinyl albums because of the perceived richness this distortion produces. Since we are using the master tape with the distortion, would’n that distortion also transfer to the other media ...

Of course. And if you then use analog tape to record an LP or CD made from that analog master, you’ll be adding more of the distortion inherent to analog tape, however slight that may be.

On top of that, many consumer tape decks are not properly aligned and calibrated. If that’s the case, even more distortion may result, and some of that may be quite euphonic.

Remember, I’m not trashing tape here - I’m a tape and vinyl guy. But it is what it is.

^^ +1

 I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, so my apologies for being redundant if I am being so, but I have to ask the question.
Other than for archival purposes why on earth would you wish to record vinyl onto tape? Sure, if you want to add head bump, head wear and poor calibration frequency response modifications, tape hiss, compression, harmonic distortion, and additional wow and flutter- it's just great.

I have a properly calibrated/maintained (and measured!) 1/4" 2 track Otari MX50 and my friend has a equally carefully maintained Studer A820 and they're both fine machines, but the degradation/alteration is obvious to me- even at 15IPS. By the way, the decks sound a bit different and I prefer the Otari (slightly) over the Studer and in blind tests my friend, reluctantly, agreed, even though in non-blind listening he declared the Studer was obviously better- confirmation bias is hard to control. Both machines are re-capped, but have stock opamps. Both are, indeed, very fine machines.

However, what I found better as an archival method was to use a really high quality ADC/DAC- such as the RME ADI-2 PRO FS. 
ABX and extended period AB blind testing that I have performed with friends has indicated that the resultant playback is indistinguishable from the original on a statistically significant basis, and no more than 24 bits/96kHz PCM seems to be required to maintain that statistical significance.
I was absolutely certain that this would not be the case, and until I actually went through the tests I would always say that the digital was inferior- but now, very reluctantly, I have to say I was wrong.
I've also digitally archived 15IPS tape masters- generally 3rd generation- such as Kind of Blue, Dark Side of the Moon, Elgar cello conc. with Dupre etc. and again, I and those who I have conducted a valid AB test with cannot tell the difference despite the initial certainty that we could.
The converter is comparable in cost to the tape deck and hard drives are much cheaper than tape.
I buy my SM468 tape from Splicit- it cost about $60 and gives me 2500 feet and a nice metal reel- and about 33mins of recording time.
Roughly the same price buys me a 2TB drive and at 33MB/min for 24/96kHz wav we're talking 1000hrs of recording or about 1500hrs with FLAC.

Wynpalmer, while most would probably agree that Otari and Studer are better than my Technics RS1500; The results I'm getting must be due to the fact that I replaced all the electrolytic capacitors with "Black Gates" (this was before they stopped selling them) plus I replaced all the transistors with new ones from Panasonic.


Now that I've finished recording my favorite vinyl to 15 IPS tape, I'm starting on CD's; they turn out even better than LP's when you select the good one's; that's what I'm doing today. Once done, there isn't even the remotest hint of digital; it's pure analog.


Soon I will be enjoying the fruits of my labor, sorry you aren't getting the same results.

johnss, do you know who can be trusted with decks to service them and make necessary upgrades ? Studer and Otari. I would see no reason to go with Technics. Maybe pro Sony and top Revox too.

Just a little while ago, I recorded "Trance Mission", Meanwhile; Meanwhile, is the title of the CD. It has cuts titled with names like "Chasing the Moon Rabbit". Instruments include didgerdoo, clarinets, percussion, winds and digital atmospherics.

Before I recorded, I demagnetized and cleaned the heads; my rubber rollers are relatively new. The signal was straight off the out of the Marantz CD player to the in of the reel.
The recording level was less than 2, any more and the needles went into the red; they were really popping at that level.

During recording, the music sounded louder in the left channel; that's normal for my room, not good, but normal.

On playback, all was straightened out; the holographic sound stage was spread evenly across the rear wall.

Let me explain this; the louder left channel is because of the room acoustics, it has nothing to do with electronics; the very strong signal from the reel, straightened all that out, it overcame the bad room acoustics, and delivered a "holographic" sound stage.



Think about it; when you buy a beautiful "Studer" that handles tape magnificently, it still has old capacitors and transistors; hopefully you at least buy new rubber rollers.

The same as in any analog rig; "The devil is in the details". Happy listening, and may the force be with you, and the wind in your sails.

orpheus10

Just a little while ago, I recorded "Trance Mission" ... During recording, the music sounded louder in the left channel; that's normal for my room, not good, but normal.

On playback, all was straightened out; the holographic sound stage was spread evenly across the rear wall.

Let me explain this; the louder left channel is because of the room acoustics, it has nothing to do with electronics; the very strong signal from the reel, straightened all that out, it overcame the bad room acoustics ...

It sounds like your tape deck is somehow misaligned or not properly calibrated. It works out well in your installation because of its unusual room acoustics, but those tapes aren't likely to sound good using headphones, or when played back in a more neutral acoustic environment.

I've just been listening and evaluating this morning: vinyl from computer hard drive, just fine. If you're not getting the same results, you're doing something wrong.

LP's recorded at 7.5 are good; the new thing is CD's recorded at 15 IPS; will order new tape.

Cleeds you're good, anytime I have a problem I'll give you a ring; but in the meantime I'll handle this.

According to my evaluation, although it's nice to have a reel to reel; if done right, your computer is a good substitute; however, this CD to tape at 15 IPS is flat out addicting.

I had something similar happen to me recently... the right VU meters' signal was lower than the right.  Then I remember reading somewhere if you play a 1/2 track tape on a 1/4 track machine (in this case, my TEAC X-1000R) the right channels' track is slightly misaligned, thus not providing perfect centering of the track, resulting in less signal, although you can hear the music.  The tape was purchased used and had some choir music on it (quite well recorded I might add).  I believe I confirmed it was a 1/2 track recording as when I reversed playback direction, the recorded music was also playing reverse.  Am I correct in my assumptions?  Hope this helps.

No, this had absolutely nothing to do with any of the gear, someone else had the same problem, it was entirely do to the room acoustics; as a matter of fact, it took a lot of troubleshooting to discover the problem was "room acoustics". 

In reality, both channels were equal; it just sounded that way from the listening chair because of  unequal wall reflections, but on playback of the stronger signal, it was balanced again; the stronger signal overcame the bad room acoustics.

The last few days have caused me to reorient my entire line of thinking; I had planned to upgrade my rig with a Koetsu Urushi cartridge and a Herron Phono pre when funds were available, but that's a lot of money.

Honestly folks, those funds may never be available, but now, I'm no longer lusting for those components because I found an audio equivalent; 15 IPS CD's, and the only expense is the tape.

Anyone considering a R2R should first find out if they can get it worked on, should it need repair, and if parts are available.

If they're going to get it refurbished, ask about capacitors and transistors; they won't cost much more if the unit isn't too hard to work on.

Once all of that is done, you will have almost a new R2R for less than the original price, and cost a fraction of a new one.

 @benjie how about it lol! I asked a couple questions in between and gone blown right past lmao! It’s all good though!

@inna it would probably be beneficial to have someone close to you do any work on your deck if possible. Prior to my finding someone local to me who works on Paul Stubblebine's decks I bought a Pelican case for my Otari to protect it during shipping. It's important that the large power transformer remain secure because if it breaks off it will most likely result in additional internal damage. As far as recommendations, Soren Witt in Chicago serviced my Otari and I did my own upgrades using parts supplied by Athan Corporation. John French is great as well. For Revox I would suggest Arian Jansen from Sonorus Audio who has rebuilt/upgraded many an A-77 and B-77, and knows his way around Studer decks as well.

After a lot of research, I just purchased a beautifully restored/refurbed Otari MX5050Bii2 from a gentleman known as Professor Audio on Reverb. His work is superb and the Otari now trumps my Technics RS1506 (needs a complete refurb including caps) and my consumer grade TEAC X-1000R in appearance, sound, and functionality. Mr. Walls also provides lifetime technical assistance when you purchase one of his Decks. In addition, he will take the time to talk you through a basic calibration if the need arises for your deck if you have the desire to learn how to DIY. He specializes in refurbishing and repairing Otari’s and is passionate about the brand, but he may have expertise with other brands as well. But he has been doing rtr repair and refurbishment for over 4 decades and certainly has the experience. If you need more info, please PM me. If there is a way to post pictures here, please tell me and I will post of few of the professional pictures he sent me upon completion of the deck before the sale.
If you reach out to him, tell him gusser recommended him via the AG forum. :)

Addendum:  Here is a link to Reverb showing the original ad Professor audio posted.  I believe you may have to be a registered member of reverb to view "sold" items so the link may not work.  If that is the case, my apologies. 
FYI:  I had purchased the deck before it was listed.  You can read the description of the detailed work he did on my deck as well as look at the pictures showing the deck and all accessories he included as a package.  As I have not figured out how to post pics on the forum, please enjoy the pics in lieu of my posting the pics myself.  

https://reverb.com/item/16672128-otari-mx-5050bii2-reel-to-reel-mastering-tape-deck-fully-restored-museum-condition?show_sold=true

In the filters on the left hand side of the page, be sure "All" and "Sold Listings" are checked.  Enjoy.the read and the pics.  

Gusser, I'm green with envy; hope he's got one for me.

I don't think refurb includes new capacitors; if not, they don't cost much, and they make a huge difference. "Nichicon" are very good. The price of the work would depend on the difficulty, but your reel would be closer to a new one.


Happy listening!

Hi Orpheus10,

In all fairness, I really wasn’t planning on getting one, but even after being a tapehead (tapeheads.net...another forum one should check out for r2r stuff) for half a century, I wasn’t aware of the half track mode... always wondered what that 2trk 4trk switch was for on my RS1506, but was only interested in recording bands I was in or FM music. 4trk was all i needed.

The Otari brand kept coming up as a pro machine, even more than the technics, but in all fairness, the transport on the 1506 is smoother. It was just good timing that I was introduced to Mr. Walls as he was finishing my new pride and joy.

Another poster here on AG inquired and Mr. Wall gave me permission to give him his contact info. He had 3 Otari’s (not sure what models) doing final burn in the wings, soon to be posted on Reverb.... he now has two. :)

He also gave me permission to share his reverb webpage where I felt it was appropriate.

Mr. Walls does a detailed testing of all active and passive electronic components during his refurb. If a transistor, IC, (newer models) cap or diode is out of spec, he replaces it. Caps I believe are the weak link. Especially in the older R2R’s. I believe he mentions that in the details of the refurbishment of my deck, but check to be sure. .

I believe he does about 2 Otari’s a month. But delays in getting ordered replacement parts can slow things down a bit. As I mentioned, timing was everything for in this case, having the good fortune of finding such a clean example of this venerable deck nearing completion. Being an r2r enthusiast, I felt it was surely worth the cost of admission.

Happy hunting!

Gusser, I hope you can help me; I'm looking at page 9 of the RS-1506 operating instructions, where they have the bias, and equalization chart. I'm trying to translate this for new tape that's not listed.

This is the tape I'm purchasing;


        https://www.atrtape.com/products/mds-36-14-x-3600


Now I'm trying to figure what bias and equalization I set on the RS1506 for this tape?

Gusser.

That is one sweet looking deck!
Thank you for the link and information.

Enjoy it.

Orpheus10,
 I wish I could help but when I purchased my 1506 in '84 at a hole in the wall used hifi gear shop in Lawton, OK while in the army, the soldier selling it via the shop did not provide with feet, all 6 selector switch plastic covers were cracked and barely hanging on, and most importantly, it did not come with a manual.  I used Maxell UD-180 10.5" tape reels exclusively and I experimented with the positions of the bia and equalization switch positions.  Right or wrong, I left both on 1 at all time as it seemed to provide the best clarity for all frequencies.  Not very technical, I know, but all I can offer.  I'm glad Benjie was able to step in and provide the proper settings for your tape selection.

I now have the owners manual AND service manual in PDF form.  I'm sure will be quite knowledgeable about the deck I've owner for 35 years when I've complete the refurb.  Until, I will defer to others, like Benjiie, who are better informed. 
Good luck! 

Thank you for the kind words Uberwaltz.  Appreciated.  

orpheus106,082 posts04-07-2019 6:03pm
Gusser, I hope you can help me; I'm looking at page 9 of the RS-1506 operating instructions, where they have the bias, and equalization chart. I'm trying to translate this for new tape that's not listed.

This is the tape I'm purchasing;


        https://www.atrtape.com/products/mds-36-14-x-3600


Now I'm trying to figure what bias and equalization I set on the RS1506 for this tape?

clio09, thank you, appreciate it.
If that Otari is as good as it looks, the price is right. You don't save $1k when you go with higher end R2R deck. Technics transport is smoother than Otari ? Are you sure, that's unexpected ?

Thank you Benjie, knowing the bias and EQ before I buy the tape gives me the consolation that I'll get good results.

Gusser, I'm glad you have the proper paper work, now you'll get the best results. That will help you enjoy your new deck even more.

Inna:   Yes, it is!  It is near new in appearance and operation. Quite exceptional since it was built in 1986.  RE: tape transport.  Just my HO.  I have spent minimal time with the Otari and should reserve judgement.  I am awaiting a replacement integrated amp, (Decided toobs are not for me... back to solid state) which is arriving today.  Hope to spend more time with the MX in the coming weeks.  I may find I am mistaken.

orpheus10:  I believe I have confused you.  The Otari came with all documents, provided by Mr. Wall.  I have owned the 1506 for 35 years and all this time without an owners manual (or feet for that matter).  During the refurb, I will take the time to read and learn the significance of the Bias and Equalizations switches and how they relate to different tape types.  Appreciate the input.

I know I'm repeating, but there is a good reason; while you don't need new caps all throughout the deck, they will greatly enhance your recordings if installed on "input" and "output". Get the best electrolytic capacitors available.

This is the tape I'm purchasing;


        https://www.atrtape.com/products/mds-36-14-x-3600


Now I'm trying to figure what bias and equalization I set on the RS1506 for this tape?

If you've been using Ampex Grand Master 456 this is a really similar formulation. Also corresponds to 3M 996

Thank you Atmasphere, Grand Master shows up in the manual as 2 Bias, and 2 EQ, the same as Benjie recommended.

Love being lectured by someone who does not even own a deck
is there an ignore button on Audiogon ?

any of the zealots complete the homework assignment of listening to your RtR electronics sans tape to discern which part you like or would that strain the flat earth society ?

fun
enjoy the music!!!!!

Actually you don’t need to waste $ on every cap, try bypassing
but if you insist my two Revox use Wima with Coherent in bypass

of course your entire signal chain will benefit from this... your DAC,  phono preamp, etc
all the way out to and including Speakers

you have changed those also, right ?????

Tomic, as a matter of fact my preamps have "Black Gate" capacitors; if there is an electrolytic that's not too large, it's "Black Gate". When current equipment fails, I'll switch to Nichicon.

My speakers have Jantzen 0554 3.3uF 800V Z-Superior Capacitors


My aim is ultimate audio, what's yours?

Grand Master shows up in the manual as 2 Bias, and 2 EQ, the same as Benjie recommended.

All the new tape formulations are set up so you don't have to tweak the bias or EQ. The Ampex Grand Master became the gold standard in the old days so its a good bet that any new tape you get is aimed at that performance.

My goal is a faithful recreation of the original event
hence my heavy investment in microphones, preamps, linear PSU for phantom power, direct into a much better than stock RtR and A2D converters, a fantastic DAC, etc
i sponsor via patronage a recording studio and touring artist
i have a decent grip on what unamplified music sounds like along with all the tape artifacts and lack of high frequency fidelity that more than 4 posters to this thread have mentioned- looks like they have an spl meter and can do a fair a/b
the homework I mentioned will help you understand the loudness ( gain ) switch in your tape loop
not trying to drag you down

 @benjie Yes , studios will often use a RtR to fatten up and compress a track
we do it with electric guitar, Fender Rhodes quite a bit.
you can hear this across the whole multi track mix on The Teskey Brothers- Half Mike Harvest
the CD has all of the dirt, overdrive, distortion, clipping present in the LP
this is also a stellar album and work
perfect at capturing the sound of an era
enjoy the music

Funny how nobody seems to talk about the lower end of r2r or admit to owning a lesser deck.

While my Sony TC-377 is far from state of the art, it’s inherent simplicity and build quality will likely mean it will still be working into the next century.

Nope it will not give that state of the art replay some are experiencing here but I can say that Qobuz hires streaming recorded at 7.5ips on Ampex 641 sounds pretty darn good to myself.

I also really like the retro look of this deck.

I used to have a 377. Nice deck. they benefit greatly from film bypasses on the interstage coupling caps and a fresh power supply rebuild.

Uberwaltz, I had a friend who had a big beautiful Sony reel. The only thing I remember was the big multicolored buttons, and it's silent running.

It's not about whether or not it's state of the art, but whether or not you can get parts, and someone to work on it. Without those two things, I wouldn't recommend any deck.

I recall being in a large sale room that was devoted to nothing but reels. They had models of each major brand: Sony, AKAI, Pioneer, Crown and others; they had 10 and 7 inch models.  I bought a 7 inch AKAI that played cassettes, 8 tracks, and reel.

Sony TC 377 must be a good deck, they're still selling them.

Orpheus.

No idea if it is a good deck but atm it’s good enough.

I really like the simplicity of it and it has similar controls to my old Akai cassette deck. Hard switches not soft touch controls.

Very solid feeling.

If I had one criticism it would be its relatively low output to my amp, but I think that is likely fairly common issue in most vintage tape decks.

If I had one criticism it would be its relatively low output to my amp, but I think that is likely fairly common issue in most vintage tape decks.

Consumer decks (including cassette) are set to a 1.0 volt output generally. There was an expectation to be used with a preamp. Pro decks are a bit different and have a lot more output.

About what I though Ralph.
My Akai cassette has approx same.
However my Nakamichi 582 seems like it has a lot more output and this was just a consumer deck.

Maybe Nakamichi did things a little differently?

They didn't. But the output is set by a trimmer control and it may have been set up to be a little hotter.

Silly question possibly but.....
Is there any way to increase the output voltage at the deck or to increase it going into the amp.
Obviously without having any deleterious sonic effect.

Yesterday, I recorded some new LP's on used tape at 15 IPS, the music came through, but there was tape hiss. This is a "tape hiss" free zone; that tape will be discarded, leaving the empty reel for later use.

Today, I've been listening to Diane Schuur recorded at 7.5, sounds great on Maxell XL-1 tape. She is one fantastic vocalist, I have to get some more of her works. She's still performing.

Another hard day in the life.

Uberwitz, have you thought about a phono pre for MM cartridges?

Orpheus

That thought had crossed my mind but was thinking that at 1.0v the input into the phono might be too hot?