I too second charles1dad and I would like to add that- the more you isolate and refine the AC power to both your analog and digital units the more impressed you'll be with the quality of Redbood CD. Experiment and enjoy.
Redbook Keeps Surprising
I was a Best Buy to get a memory card reader for my computer. Looked at the CDs and saw a few in the bargain bin that I would like to have, only a few dollars. Came home, ripped them with DB power amp, picked the best cover art. Transferred to my Aurender through the NAS and played away. WOW, impressive sound and I really enjoyed them both. I like the High Res downloads and my SACD collection but am often really impressed by good Redbook CD. It really is the music that counts.
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My cd player is a Vitus SCD-025Mk2 rbcd player. It employs a heavily modified Phllips Pro 2LF transport, modular design, 4 x custom-made UI-core psu's and uses sample rate conversion to minimize jitter via a new Q8 stereo-synchro upsampler from EngineeRED (formerly Anagram Technologies) which accepts pcm signal from 32 up to 384 kHz with 8 x oversampling
(using true extrapolation like the Soulution 745), and accepts DSD64/128
via its asynchronous USB board. It delivers a 24/384 kHz pcm signal that drives 2 x
mono ADI1955 d/a converters. The output stages are taken from the SL-102 Mk2 preamp. Vitus design and build their own master clock in-house. This player also has wide bandwidth (to beyond 2.5MHz). The design in Hans Ole Vitus's hands is very well executed. It is very resolving, yet smooth and non-digital at the same time. In fact it is the most analogue-sounding cd player i've heard. Bad recordings still suck mind you, but they suck a lot less on this player compared to most ss rbcd players. After hearing some great rbcd's on this player such as the Marten Supreme Sessions, XRCD24's & DXD's, I don't pane for SACD. Yup, RBCD keeps surprising.. |
bsmith I’m with you on this bbsmith, playing the original cd always to me sounds more "wholesome, natural and sweeter" compared to a ripped or even downloaded ones, which to me sound a bit "hifi" and a bit in your face, which can to me at first give the wrong impression of better dynamics. But it’s a forced squeezed in your face type of dynamic and not enveloping easy following "bigness of body" type of dynamic that the cd gives, maybe all the added conversions of the ripped/downloaded ones have more jitter involved, who knows? Cheers George
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Hi bsmith, In my system, it’s just the opposite. The ripped cd file sounds better than the cd spinning in the super heavy transport of my old Esoteric K-01. Many others in audioland have also found ripped files to sound better than cd’s. To be fair, I have also upgraded to the new generation Esoteric N-05 dac/network player. The usb implementation in the N-05 is miles ahead of the K-01. New digital gets cheaper and better in doing wonders for redbook. When I switch to hi-res files, the difference isn’t that dramatic. My entire redbook collection now sounds better than ever and the good recordings sound as good as hi-res. Jon. :) (Ptss, we can only hope YKWYA doesn’t come forth to tell us what I already know about the chip residing in the Esoteric N-05) |
^^^ And by the way, Redbook CD's can sound fantastic when played back through a highly resolving system. One key is to find the recordings that were done by a recording engineer who kept his hands off of the control panel knobs and has left the reverb dial alone ... and just lets the natural sound of the recording come through. Those are the CD's that sound terrific. So, what are we supposed to do to remain "ethical?" Are we supposed to buy fifty crappy sounding CD's until we find one that's worth keeping? And what is the "ethical" thing to do with the crappy sounding ones? Would that be to just throw them in the trash? Would it be to just accept the crappy sounding ones and learn to live with them? I submit that the unethical ones are those who own the studios that produce crappy sounding digital recordings and then gouge the public for an inferior product. They have become their own worst enemy. Let's get it straight ... Most of the studios today are run by a bunch of bean counters who couldn't care less about the end user. For them, its all about the money, and nothing else. OP |
So, let's see if I have this right ... If I burn a copy of a CD that I own to play in my car for personal enjoyment, I'm okay as far as "the law" is concerned. But ... If I play the burned CD in my car for awhile, then give it to a friend at no charge, just as a gift, then I'm an "unethical" person? If I have an expensive bicycle that I replace with a new one, and I give my old bicycle to a valued friend at no cost, am I then somehow "cheating" the manufacturer of the old bicycle out of a sale? How about if I sell my old bicycle to a private party ... does that make me an "unethical person?" I like the philosophy of The Grateful Dead ... "Once out into the air, it is no longer ours, it belongs to our fans." They even allowed private recordings to be taken at their live concerts. That's why we have so many Grateful Dead bootlegs. My take? If I buy a new CD, the musician makes money. The CD at that point is my personal property. It no longer is the property of the musician or the studio that produced it. It is mine to do with what I want. The musician doesn't deserve to make money in perpetuity on resale, after resale, after resale of the same CD. No more than the bicycle manufacturer deserves to make money from subsequent resale of used bicycles. There are just too damned many attorneys who are desperate for work out there ... and they are grinding the country to a halt with their rules and regulations. Enough is enough ... OP |
Jon, I must agree wholeheartedly. "you know who you are" needs serious professional help coupled with serious medicine (spoon fed so he doesn't inadvertently swallow the "wrong end" of the pill and thereby dramatically reduce the benefit. It's sad when someone behaves in a way that they would spend most of their time standing in a corner facing the wall. I think it's in about grade 3 when children are taught not to interrupt and to stay on the topic. Cheers to all-except you know who :) |
TEchnical descriptions are a tool to help determine what interests you. After all, you have to choose what to try based on something. I know I cannot try everything no matter how much I might like to. After that though, yes you gotta just trust yours ears to determine if chosen product is truly for you or not. |
Sboje, You don’t have to be confused. As its been mentioned several times in this thread just listen to DACs that interest you and then choose what "you" believes sounds best. Forget R2R vs Delta Sigma debates, just listen and trust your own ears. There's no better way to judge an audio component than actually hearing it. Charles, |
PS: sboje your Meridian is a CS4390 a Delta Sigma not the best for Redbook so is the Auralic Vega also a DS convertor. If you want the best for redbook conversion look for a dac that use R2R Multibit. The price of the Auralic is $3.5K there are many R2R mulibits in that budget. ask if you want some recommendations. Cheers George
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No confusion, just read this by MoJo music, it explains it all simply. Remember pcm (is Redbook), and R2R Multibit converts it "bit perfect". DS delta/sigma (bitstream, single bit) does DSD, but only a facsimile of Redbook (pcm) Cheers George
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I hope I'm not breaking rules since I already started a post about buying an external DAC but... Does this mean that if I'm just listening to Redbook CD, I should stick to the analog output of my Meridian 508.24 instead of buying something like an Auralic Vega if I only intend to listen to CDs right now? The discussion about R2R and DS has me confused. |
@jon2020 Understand, first of all, I'm not an attorney and copyright law is often ridiculously stupid and complex. The legal rule of thumb, however, is that there are NO commercial recordings that are in the public domain, not even the old Edison cylinders which are still protected by sundry state laws. The only copyright-free recordings are the ones you make yourself of PD material. But almost certainly, a situation such you describe would be so de minimus as to not merit concern. Problems start when one obtains a recording, rips it by whatever means, and then turns around and deliberately disposes of the original paid-for recording, one's license. Occasional, accidental loss of a CD, meh. Wholesale disposal of or especially deliberately reselling of ripped CDs, not so meh. And putting the ripped track up on the web to share, oh Lordy! Ask YouTube's legal dept. about the fun they've had! Oh, and BTW, I'm of the school that believes that Redbook CDs can, at least in theory, perfectly reproduce a sound recording in the range of human hearing. The problems that occur are peripheral to the format itself, i. e. in the recording technique, ADC, mixing/mastering, DAC and playback equipment. For listening, higher sample rates and word lengths are generally silly and wasteful. |
lp2cd, Thanks for clarifying. Much appreciated. If we have ripped a CD but not distributed the rip, retaining it only for personal use, that would be still be ok even if one day we happen to lose the original CD, like when moving or we bin it because it has bad scratches on it. I hope this is correct. |
@jafreeman, jon2020 et al. From our "friends" at RIAA: "Copying CDs It’s okay to copy music onto special Audio CD-R’s, mini-discs, and digital tapes (because royalties have been paid on them) – but not for commercial purposes. Beyond that, there’s no legal “right” to copy the copyrighted music on a CD onto a CD-R. However, burning a copy of CD onto a CD-R, or transferring a copy onto your computer hard drive or your portable music player, won’t usually raise concerns so long as: • The copy is made from an authorized original CD that you legitimately own. • The copy is just for your personal use. It’s not a personal use – in fact, it’s illegal – to give away the copy or lend it to others for copying. • The owners of copyrighted music have the right to use protection technology to allow or prevent copying. • Remember, it’s never okay to sell or make commercial use of a copy that you make." In other words, the original, physical CD (or whatever) is your license to possess a copyrighted work in whatever format you, personally, may have transferred it to. You must continue to own the original CD. If you haven't the original CD, you've no license to possess a copy of the work no matter the form or format. And you most certainly can not legally or ethically transfer a copyrighted CD to someone else for them to make copy. It's pretty straightforward and only fair to the musicians. Doing what I do, LP to CD transcription and remastering, requires that I have a high awareness of the copyright laws involved. Mostly, I work for the person or label who owns the copyright on the original recording. But If I do a transfer for an individual, I, and any reputable transfer service, will be adamant that my customer owns the LP personally and that they will not give up possession of it. It's their license to own the CD transfer *FOR THEIR PERSONAL USE ONLY*. |
Hi Jond,, I’ve owned the Yamamoto YDA -01 DAC for nearly 7 years and during that time span I’ve heard multiple numbers of DACs. Be they delta sigma or R2R based. My conclusion confirmed by listening is that there’s considerable overlap between the two types. R2R can indeed sound superb but I don’t find it inherently superior. Delta sigma can and does sound superb as well. Both are dependent on multiple factors and most certainly implementation. After all these years the Yamamoto DAC has withstood the test of time. Here's what I mean. In terms of musical involvement /emotional engagement and a very natural /organic character it is still one of the best sounding DACs I’ve heard. If definitely falls into the musical rather than the Hifi niche. Charles, |
"You MUST have physical possession of the original CD ...." This is an interesting aspect of the law. I always thought artists get paid for each CD purchased but what happens to the same purchased CD after that is immaterial to the artist as he/she will not or cannot be paid twice for the same physical CD. It's like if I have a defective CD, I should not bin it lest it gets picked up by a scavenger? I may be wrong but I find this issue rather puzzling. |
Good points, lp2cd. I have always wondered what the used CD retailer owes to the artist after I have sold them a bag of CDs I no longer enjoy. The music store will give me anywhere from .25 to $3 for a CD and reject a few, as well. They then offer me cash or store credit, with 20% off anything purchased. |
@ oregonpapa et al. I presume that you realize that ripping and then reselling, even donating, the physical CD is a flagrant violation of the fair-use provisions of the copyright law. You MUST have physical possession of the original CD, LP, DVD whatever, or you must delete it from your system. (A purchased download is, of course, a different matter.) Everyone knows all that, I presume, but georgelifi is absolutely correct. Ripping CDs and ripping-off the artist is NOT in *YOUR* best interest, either. Not only is it simply unethical (but I guess you can live with that...), it has over the years had a notably adverse effect on musicians and music production in general, especially on those with limited audiences and distribution. It also necessarily keeps prices higher. Lastly, when one disposes of the CD, one disposes of the frequently worthwhile "liner notes" and artwork as well. I'm not saying I've never purchased a "used" CD, but when I do, it is never sold by anyone again. Moreover, I'll often make an effort to buy CDs directly from the musicians themselves whenever possible. I guess I think of it as noblesse oblige. In any case, if folks in these parts can lay down ridiculous money for cabling and other exotic gear, at the very least they can reasonably support the musicians and others without whom the rest is for naught. |
This leads to another consideration--do you prefer to listen to your digital music via files, or do you like to have the physical media playing in your system? My dealer was playing music via his MacBook into a DAC, and I remarked on how good it sounded. He said yes--with the reservation that the file may not be as bit perfect as the actual disc. |
I also say +1 for these cheap to get CD bundles, but the big downside is if we/us are getting them this way instead of purchasing new ones because we are content to listen to the 100 that we just got for peanuts, it will speed up and spell the end of new cd's being manufactured, even great specialized labels like Reference Recording cd's etc etc. Cheers George
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+1 to oregonpapa. I haunt the local thrift stores and have added about 60 CDs’ to the collection in the past year at prices ranging from 50-cents to $2.00 per disc. Many of those CDs’ feature artists and titles that I’m not familiar with and my curiosity has been richly rewarded many times over. It’s allowed me to explore new genres and expand my musical tastes and preferences. So I say ’Thank you’ as well...and keep ’em coming guys’. |
Hi ejr, are you making this sacd/dsd v pcm/cd comparison judgment using the same dac? Cheers George
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I own a lot of CDs, rip them into 44.1/16 AIFF files, transfer them to my music server from iTunes. I also have a few SACDs and have purchased some 192/24 AIFF files from HD Tracks. I must say, the music I have on both SACD & 192/24 sometimes does sound slightly better, the performers seem to have a little more "distinctness" with the sounds they make and they are more precisely positioned in the sound stage, but 1) the difference is not consistent and 2) those hi-res versions are the results of being remastered, so I'm not sure I'm comparing "apples to apples". For nearly two years I've had the pleasure of enjoying a PS Audio DirectStream DAC, and that unit really impresses me, its ability to extract all sorts of detail from CD quality AIFF & FLAC files. I'm guessing that the higher resolution of the distribution files might have some effect on the sound quality, but that most of the good sound quality might come from excellent engineering and mastering. Sometimes I am just astounded by how good even 44.1/16 sounds on my system. |
My entire collection consists of redbook CDs (some vinyl) and I am very impressed with the sound I am getting from most. Running a Audiophilleo USB/SPDUF converter (for computer) or Arcam DV-137 disc player (CDs and DVDs) into a Bryston DAC. Have not purchased hirez or DSD files. I buy CDs and rip to computer. Unlike mapman, I keep the CDs. |
Coming back to the OP, if I understand it correctly, cd recordings today which sound good are more likely to be sourced from 192/24 masters which are then downsampled to 44/16 in the disc or as downloads. Many recording studios seem to be doing all-digital masters nowadays, either in hires pcm or dsd. A very good sounding cd like Patricia Barber's Cafe Blue, I have been told, is mastered in hires pcm. |
multiple factors determine the overall sound quality of DACs Yes you are also correct there Charles, and in the conversion of Redbook (PCM) there is one glaring factor, published by MoJo sound and recognized by many in the know, that is:
Cheers George |
I/V stages, too right Charles, just as I said in my first post https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1329734 But I/V stages are only used on current output dacs, as voltage output dacs don’t use them, I leave you now to ponder and do some homework which ones use I/V stages and which don’t. And we are talking about Redbbook (pcm) and the best way to listen to it, there's no hijacking of the thread. Cheers George |
Redbook Keeps Surprising.... What is more surprising is that the thread gets hijacked and becomes which "type" of DAC is better - DS or R-2R. I love the CD playback on my simple Teac player or even the good old Oppo 970H. Yes, the Teac sounds better than the cheap old Oppo. But that happens only when you are comparing the equipment, and not listening to the music. CDs now-a-days sound damn good. |
Nothings perfect. Glad to see a thread praising CD sound quality. I’ve been using Dbpoweramp to my own homegrown PC based music server and couldn’t be happier. I haven't actually played a CD in years. Alll CDs are ripped to music server and backed up immediately up front. CD playback like everything can only be as good as the weakest link in teh chain, but many ways of assembling a robust chain these days. |
Jon2020, You are making a very rational point. The type of chip or conversion (Delta Sigma vs R2R ladder ) is just one aspect of what determines the final sound quality of a DAC. Implementation of either method is the more important issue. I’d make the argument that I/V conversion, power supply quality and the output stage quality and execution are of greater influence on the sound quality. You can not overemphasized one isolated aspect and then attributes that this is the only explanation. I’ve heard numerous examples of both approaches to DAC design and there’s considerable overlapping between them. Based on listening I don’t believe that one is " inherently" superior to the other. I'd encourage people to just listen and come to a decision based on what you hear rather than dogma concerning isolated design /part choices. Charles, |
You believe what the dac manufacture is selling you, that a hybrid dac can deliver "bit perfect" Redbook PCM??? You been suckered sunshine. Why do you think dacs like the YPsilon,Total,Trinity Dac, Flagship MSB's and many others have designed their top dacs with hard to get R2R Multibit converters for Redbook only conversion, when they could of used Delta Sigma at 100th of the price and got DSD replay as well?? Some can't see the forest through the trees.
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Review of Aeris DAC :- http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jeffrowland/2.html "JRDG states that the Aeris is "based upon an asynchronous buffer, voltage-controlled crystal oscillators and a 24-bit D/A converter – under the precise control of a FPGA running proprietary algorithms..." and "...delivers bit-perfect conversion ......." But, but...... http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD1853.pdf http://www.analog.com/en/products/audio-video/audio-da-converters/ad1853.html#product-overview Review of Bricasti M1 :- http://www.dagogo.com/bricasti-design-model-1-usb-dac-review "The M1 is one of the best DACs available on the market at any price." Sheesh! |
steakster I have had a DSD capable Bricasti here, and yes it was very good when it did DSD, but it was shown up by an old Cary 303/200 24/96 R2R multibit doing PCM DVD-A (an extension of Redbook) which it had to down sample from 24/192 to 24/96 and even still the difference was easy to hear, the Bricasti could not match it. In case your wondering it was through B&W 800D MkII Diamonds. Cheers George |
Steakster, I fully agree about the Bricasti. I have auditioned it in my home system but it could not yet do DSD at the time. Don’t let anyone tell you different just because.... http://www.bricasti.com/m1_specs.html Yup, you guessed it. The Bricasti is delta-sigma! |
Hey jon2020 don't get your knickers in a knot, just giving the readers the info on the best way to convert Redbook (PCM), not to judge and say DSD is better. And your the one that post up a link to a great R2R multibit dac,, and raved about the fantastic review it got, not me, and I even praise Moffett for doing it to get the best out of Redbook. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/schitt-yggdrasil-review Cheers George
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At T.H.E. Show in Newport, I was speaking with the designer/manufacturer of the Bricasti line of DAC’s. This was early Friday morning before the crowds showed up. He said that an LP is in the neighborhood of 14 bits/18kHz (perhaps - up to 25Hz on virgin vinyl). Less than 16/44.1 of a CD. He said that, of course, today’s technology is far superior - but, getting the industry and the marketplace to accept new standards isn’t so easy. He played a few digital demos to show how recording engineers can manipulate compression and the dynamic range. Very informative. He started explaining how the higher kHz ranges allow better-designed digital filters to be implemented in the firmware which offered smoother playback- but, this technical info was way over my head. BTW, the Bricasti room sounded pretty amazing. |