Redbook Keeps Surprising

bsmith

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someone explain to me why cd’s sound better to me than the file of that cd.

I’m with you on this bbsmith, playing the original cd always to me sounds more "wholesome, natural and sweeter" compared to a ripped or even downloaded ones, which to me sound a bit "hifi" and a bit in your face, which can to me at first give the wrong impression of better dynamics. But it’s a forced squeezed in your face type of dynamic and not enveloping easy following "bigness of body" type of dynamic that the cd gives, maybe all the added conversions of the ripped/downloaded ones have more jitter involved, who knows?

Cheers George

sboje

No confusion, just read this by MoJo music, it explains it all simply.

Remember pcm (is Redbook), and R2R Multibit converts it "bit perfect".

DS delta/sigma (bitstream, single bit) does DSD, but only a facsimile of Redbook (pcm)

Cheers George

"When a PCM (cd) file is played on a DSD (sacd) or Bit Stream converter, the DAC chip has to convert the PCM to DSD in real time. This is one of the major reasons people claim DSD (sacd) sounds better than PCM (cd), when in fact, it is just that the chip in most modern single-bit DACs do a poor job of decoding PCM (cd)."

PS:  sboje your Meridian is a CS4390 a Delta Sigma not the best for Redbook so is the Auralic Vega also a DS convertor.

If you want the best for redbook conversion look for a dac that use R2R Multibit.

The price of the Auralic is $3.5K there are many  R2R mulibits in that budget. ask if you want some recommendations.  

Cheers George 

I also say +1 for these cheap to get CD bundles, but the big downside is if we/us are getting them this way instead of purchasing new ones because we are content to listen to the 100 that we just got for peanuts, it will speed up and spell the end of new cd's being manufactured, even great specialized labels like Reference Recording cd's etc etc. 

Cheers George

Hi ejr, are you making this sacd/dsd v pcm/cd comparison judgment using the same dac?

Cheers George

"When a PCM (cd) file is played on a DSD (sacd) or Bit Stream converter, the DAC chip has to convert the PCM to DSD in real time. This is one of the major reasons people claim DSD (sacd) sounds better than PCM (cd), when in fact, it is just that the chip in most modern single-bit DACs do a poor job of decoding PCM (cd)."

multiple factors determine the overall sound quality of DACs

Yes you are also correct there Charles, and in the conversion of Redbook (PCM) there is one glaring factor, published by MoJo sound and recognized by many in the know, that is:

"When a PCM file is played on a DSD or Bit Stream converter, the DAC chip has to convert the PCM to DSD in real time. This is one of the major reasons people claim DSD sounds better than PCM, when in fact, it is just that the chip in most modern single-bit DACs do a poor job of decoding PCM."

Cheers George

I/V stages, too right Charles, just as I said in my first post

https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1329734

But I/V stages are only used on current output dacs, as voltage output dacs don’t use them, I leave you now to ponder and do some homework which ones use I/V stages and which don’t.

And we are talking about Redbbook (pcm) and the best way to listen to it, there's no hijacking of the thread. 

Cheers George

Hey jon2020 don't get your knickers in a knot, just giving the readers the info on the best way to convert Redbook (PCM), not to judge and say DSD is better.

And your the one that post up a link to a great R2R multibit dac,, and raved about the fantastic review it got, not me, and I even praise Moffett for doing it to get the best out of Redbook.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/schitt-yggdrasil-review

Cheers George

You believe what the dac manufacture is selling you, that a hybrid dac can deliver "bit perfect" Redbook PCM??? You been suckered sunshine.

Why do you think dacs like the YPsilon,Total,Trinity Dac, Flagship MSB's and many others have designed their top dacs with hard to get R2R Multibit converters for Redbook only conversion, when they could of used Delta Sigma at 100th of the price and got DSD replay as well??

Some can't see the forest through the trees.  

Get off your high horse and take a breath

Just agreeing with the OP, and letting those know the very best way to get the best from Redbook, which is what it’s all about as many of us have a vast collection of CD's 

For any one else to appreciate the best what Redbook can offer as the OP suggests, you need to hear it with it’s best conversion process, not with DSD (Delta Sigma) crap conversion, otherwise they might think the OP is full of it.

It like someone saying how good this Ferrari and for you to take it for a drive, but it’s got cross-ply tires on it and low octane fuel in it.

That’s why there’s a new real hi-rez PCM process hopefully coming called DXD similar to the defunct DVD-A, this is 24bit PCM, and needs true Multibit to convert it properly like the PCM104k dacs. Delta Sigma will just mutilate it like it does to Redbook.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/promates-worlds-first-dxd-download-store#3iOw5ocBDM6LBIRz.97

Cheers George

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?tag=dxd

steakster

I have had a DSD capable Bricasti here, and yes it was very good when it did DSD, but it was shown up by an old Cary 303/200 24/96 R2R multibit doing PCM DVD-A (an extension of Redbook) which it had to down sample from 24/192 to 24/96 and even still the difference was easy to hear, the Bricasti could not match it.

In case your wondering it was through B&W 800D MkII Diamonds.

Cheers George

PCM still rules, maybe the format it's carried on can be updated (CD) but re-played with a dac with R2R Mulitbit converter, there is still no equal.

http://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/

Make sure you read at the bottom:

"When a PCM file is played on a DSD or Bit Stream converter, the DAC chip has to convert the PCM to DSD in real time. This is one of the major reasons people claim DSD sounds better than PCM, when in fact, it is just that the chip in most modern single-bit DACs do a poor job of decoding PCM."

Cheers George

The Aurender helps get the most out of Redbook.

It's a Delta Sigma based converter, so it can't. Only true Multibit converters can get "bit perfect" conversion from PCM. Read the above link.

Cheers George 

You would be really impressed with Redbook (PCM) using with todays ideas of I/V (current to voltage) conversion with proper R2R Multibit dacs, as they are "bit perfect" for PCM conversion.

Instead of using Delta Sigma based convertors in most of todays dacs that are used for dsd, then try to do Redbook replay which can only give an approximation, and is not "bit perfect" .

Cheers George