Raven Audio Nighthawk


So the scuttlbutt on the Raven integrated amps is pretty good. But just how good are they? Are they good when compared to other comparably priced tube integrateds? Or are they better than some heavy hitters?

I currently have a NOSvalves ST-45 amp paired with a Don Sachs Model 2 (latest version) preamp and I am extremely happy with this pairing. With that said, I guess there is nothing really that I'm looking to improve. But since we all know how this game goes, I just wonder how much better (or not) the Blackhawk III would be. Consolidating two pieces down to one chasis is an attractive idea too.

I would love to hear from you if you own a Nighthawk or Blackhawk or have auditioned one against something else. I know they offer a 45 day trial period, but from my calculations if I don't like it it will cost me close to 400.00 out of pocket once the dust settles. So I'd like to go into this with a warm fuzzy that it's pretty darn good.

Oz



128x128ozzy62
I think the seller is skypunk. 
On a different note, can you imagine if the same number of people reported problems with chifi tube amps? Oh the horror!!!
@devilboy 
yes I think this will be a fun journey building up my perfect system for my hideaway. I also think it can get expensive and addicting at the same time:) I do believe that Raven will stand by their product and I’m sure this will get resolved soon enough. I’ve ordered many thousand of dollars of avionics for my aircraft through the years and I have received damaged electronics that could have easily caused a very bad day for me and my family while flying. There is a good chance that FedEx might have tried for a 60 yard field goal with the wind in there face??? Who knows. I won’t let this experience with Raven stress me out there’s plenty of stress to be found elsewhere. I still have my old SS Yamaha to piss off my neighbors!:)
@robertcropdust
I will be surprised if Raven doesn’t offer to correct it at no expense to you. When I received my Blackhawk, it had a bad buzz that obviously wasn’t right, though it was well packed with no visible damage. I called Dave at 9pm about it and he spent close to an hour guiding me to trouble shoot it over the phone. When nothing helped, he sent me a prepaid shipping label to return it to be fixed. After a week or so I got it back working correctly. Turns out a grounding wire had come loose possibly from being dropped flat during shipping (working at a company that receives shipments from UPS and FedEx daily, I wouldn’t be surprised).
There was a delay with receiving my amp initially, and when I had to send it right back out, I was very frustrated and questioning my purchase. However, after listening to it as it was supposed to be, I was so pleased that all was forgotten. I think James may get overwhelmed at times. If you don’t get a satisfactory response from him, try Dave. In my experience he really has been responsive day or night.
i would add here that i very much believe that makers of hifi gear, big or small, have a responsibility, even a duty, to their customers to design and supply excellent packaging that provides safe and trouble-free transport of their gear in this age of fedex and ups with their high speed sorting machines and conveyors, not to mention overworked and tired drivers/delivery people

for amps and speakers that weigh alot, are often quite bulky, and are worth thousands of dollars, there is simply no excuse for not having a packaging design that is completely thought through and implemented without being cheap or cutting corners

exemplary small biz cases of this are vladimir at audio mirror, and frank van alstine... terrific products, terrific packaging -- on the bigger end, audio research and conrad johnson set the bar for being absolutely top notch

others, evidently, not so much - tis a shame and a disservice to the customer
@robertcropdust 
You say that Raven thinks the amp got damaged. When I received my Nighthawk it was not packed well at all. I even called them and told them that I was very disappointed at the packaging quality and effort, or lack there of, put into it. However, I think it's more of a tube issue than the amp issue. If the amp gets damaged, chances are you're going to have a dead channel or two not just a hum. Just my two cents.

You did say you had a crackle out of one channel. I also had a crackle out of one channel in my Nighthawk. Ha... funny.

You then go on to say that this would be fun and expensive addiction.

???

Sorry but how is that fun? How is it fun to purchase a brand new $3,000 amplifier and have issues right off the bat where the manufacturer thinks it may have gotten damaged and then you also have a crackle in one channel? 
Sorry, to me that is absolutely unacceptable and is exactly what I told James when I spoke with him regarding my disappointment with the amplifier. 

To me, that is not the type of fun I want to have, especially with expensive addictions.

Yes. I’ve talked and emailed with James a few times He was going to help with troubleshooting I haven’t heard back from him since last Wednesday. I’m currently out of town for a few days but I’m going to send the amp back ASAP. Really bummed but I guess that’s the way it goes sometimes.  
James and Bryant will take care of you.

Call Bryant and tell him what is going on. James, Dave and Bryant are all owners and they are good folks. 
I only have their cables but have talked and visited with them.
FYI, to anyone interested. There is a very nice Blackhawk that was just listed on that other audio mart site.

If that one had popped up a few weeks ago I'd have gone that way instead of the Osprey. It's priced pretty well so whoever buys it could flip it w/o losing much if it didn't work out.

Oz




@robertcropdust

"I was hoping to avoid all the shipping fees and maybe get lucky with a easy fix. "
Why would you have to pay for shipping if the new amp has a problem?
i remember my rm9 back around 2000 with mixed feelings - just beast of an amp... built like a tank and i remember hurting my back moving it... it was so heavy and of course the weight was totally lopsided, and it was also very hard to grip the amp from underneath to move

sounded very nice on proacs though!  
FYI, to anyone interested. There is a very nice Blackhawk that was just listed on that other audio mart site.
I spoke with Raven a few days after receiving the amp and they suggested the amp might have gotten damaged. I did notice the hum came down in volume a couple days latter but a crackle started on the right channel. I updated Raven and questioned them about a possible bad tube or tubes but I have not been contacted back yet for further troubleshooting. I was hoping to avoid all the shipping fees and maybe get lucky with a easy fix. I bought new so I wouldn’t have to tinker to much but I guess I’m learning a lot from all you guys. I have a feeling this will be a fun expensive addiction:) Thanks. 
@tomic601 I have owned three RM9s (owned one twice) and one RM9 II. I can say with certainty it is one great design.


A lowly RM.9
oz I think I have misjudged you
hoping the Raven is all that you dream
jim
Agree yogiboy, particularly from 15 feet away. Certainly can’t generalized about tube amplifiers and hum. I have 3 tube power amplifiers and all are quiet. I’d give Raven a call and let them provide guidance before sending the amplifier back..
Charles
I received my Blackhawk on April 1st and I’m still trying to get rid of the hum/hiss the amp is producing. I have isolated the power supply, cleaned up all cable runs, tried multiple speaker cables and speakers. I’m running corner horns with fresh crossovers and tweeters. I’ve also hooked up other SS amps and they are dead quite between songs at all volumes. Do you guys have any suggestions that might help? this amp sounds great while music is playing at mid volume but the hum between songs is maddening. This is my first tube amp and maybe some hum is normal but at 15’ it’s just to much for me. Any suggestions would be appreciated Thanks.
Post removed 
I owned an Air Tight ATM-1 myself back in the day it was indeed a lovely looking amp. I wish I knew then what I know now about tube rolling as it never really thrilled me. Much happier with my current custom amp but I did get a twinge of gearlust looking at that ATM-1 ;)
Hi Oz,
Music Reference is good quality stuff. Always horses for courses for sure.
Charles 
Back in 1999 my buddy had an Airtight ATM-1 and brought it over for a shootout against my lowly Music Reference RM9. Long story short, he sold it and bought an RM9 pretty quick.

But man, that Airtight amp sure was purdy..............
@jjss49, 
That's a good price for a used AirTight ATM-1. Definitely high tier Japanese amplifier,  they don't come cheap however 😊.
Charles 
@arafiq,
Very astute observations. I heard the Rouge tube amplifier years back and thought it a bit solid state like in comparison to a similar priced Quicksilver amplifier.

Also agree of your Blackhawk against the ARC GSi 75. Very different price and performance categories. Not fair for the Blackhawk.
Charles
Agreed --- the point was to not expect miracles. It has been claimed that those 20 watts are much, much powerful than you would think -- they're not! Within it's power specs and price range, it is a very good amplifier and worth buying.
the critical success factor in owning a tube amp that makes music well is working within its power envelope and matching to speakers that highlight the amp’s strengths and don’t often remind you of its weaknesses

to ask a 30-35 wpc 6l6 amp to power 86 db/w/m 6 ohm harbeth super 5’s in a large room is a recipe for a fail... but maybe a smaller room, with 8 ohm proacs or spendors? or some devores? that would be a more appropriate use case

otoh... klipsch cornwalls may be a little too easy a load...

******************************************************************************************

in a sidebar comment, now here is a honest to goodness seriously lovely tube amp... https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649727980-airtight-atm-1-original-version-with-tubed-rectifiers/
Exactly right.  I’ve appreciated concise constructive comments here, but I think I’ll head back to the TR2 forum and enjoying music without hyper vigilance.  Which by the way a new-to-me amp is allowing.  It’s all I need.

Van Morrison’s Poetic Champions Compose floats
@jjss49 -- the simple answer is that it competes very favorably in its respective price category. No, it’s not better than the other amps that you mentioned. I compared it directly with two integrateds that I have owned -- Cronus Magnum II (Blackhawk is slightly better, more tube-like vs. the CM which sounded closer to SS to my ears), ARC GSi75 (no competition, not even close, ARC is in another league altogether, as it should be given the price difference).

The Blackhawk does well in my smaller home office (12 x 13) driving Harbeth 30.1s, but nothing spectacular. It is completely out of place in the larger room (20 x 15) driving SF Olympica 2’s (now sold) and Habeth SHL5+. Just doesn’t have enough juice to wake up the speakers - very flat and un-involving.

But, of course, what do I know. I understand that the opinions of those who actually own this amp are not relevant at the Raven alter of worship :)
am sure it is quite a decent piece, made in usa, by good guys real enthusiasts... but we are talking about a rather standard push pull 6l6 pair per channel tube amp with output trannies... how ’head and shoulders above the rest’ can it be???

don sachs kootenay
van alstine ultravalve
roger modjseki rm’s
vaic/ayons
carver crimson
various cj

Well I have owned several amps on your list.

Music Reference RM 9 (original and Mark II)
Carver Crimson 275
CJ LP66S
CJ Premier 140

No way to say for sure how any of these compare to what might come through my system today, but at least I’m familiar with their sound.

Charles,

I have owned Quicksilver Mid Monos and Mike definitely makes good stuff.


Oz


Hi @jjss49,
You can add Quicksilver Audio to your list of well respected competent push pull tube integrated/power amplifiers that compete with Raven Audio. I believe most people just want  a honest straightforward assessment of a product’s sound quality .
Charles
+1

ozzy pls tell us how that raven is... so much talk and pumping about these ravens by m-c (but i don’t think he actually has one 🙄 )

am sure it is quite a decent piece, made in usa, by good guys real enthusiasts... but we are talking about a rather standard push pull 6l6 pair per channel tube amp with output trannies... how ’head and shoulders above the rest’ can it be???

don sachs kootenay
van alstine ultravalve
roger modjseki rm’s
vaic/ayons
carver crimson
various cj

not to mention amps with real differentiating tech like linear tube audio and audio research


Thanks for all of your input.  

XS137 - a couple months ago I talked to Musical Concepts/Design and they were doing B&K mods.

i just lept on a chance for an in home trial of a used Rogue Cronus Magnum II this afternoon, and raced up I-5 to snatch it.  At least I can experience tubes without making a purchase.  It’s hooked up, biased, and I’m starting to listen.  No hum or hiss.  Subs are running high level, and I might have to back them off a bit.  Certainly has as much power as the B&K’s 200W.  I haven’t listened enough for a verdict yet.
@millercarbon Agreed. Tube watts are definitely different than SS watts! I am enjoying the Boyuurange A50 Mk3 Psvane 300B tube integrated that Steve Guttenberg reviewed and recommended. This thing makes a nice soundstage with depth and imaging. It’s a bargain. Plus it puts out 7.6 wpc and drives my 89db Magico A3s with no problem. I have never had the volume knob past 12 o’clock. I am not sure I have even had it that far! This little amp has got me wondering if this Boyuurange can do this, what can a Raven Osprey do? 
Hi @tomic601, 
I was acknowledging your " oz,  I'm pulling for you to weigh in with reality".
Looking forward to his A/B comparison,  should be insightful and fun.
Charles 
Charles my suggestion based on replacing the B and K amplifier.

There are many competent tube integrated as well. 
I had a Raven Reflection MK2 at around 68wpc with KT150 tubes in it.  It was probably the equivalent of a 200wpc SS.  It drove Sonus Faber Amati Tradition Homage Speakers with ease. 
Well, millercarbon has got me reading all I can find on Raven. My concern is I’ve only used a B&K 200wpc (ex442) for the 15 years I’ve had a real stereo system. It is driving refurbished Ohm Walsh 4s and two REL T5 subs. The subs are using the high input and wired to the speaker binding posts. Speakers and subs are seamless, so switching to rca to the subs and a high pass crossover will be a deal breaker. It’s hard to just have faith 30 watts (osprey) will manage. The Ohm Walsh sensitivity is 89. Moving up to the Reflection puts me over the price of the Brystons I have been considering. Maybe I should find a used 30wpc tube amp and see how it does? Are all 30wpc tube amps created equal in terms of speaker driving force? I’ve never thought about tube gear much.


First, I have to stress this is exactly the sort of problem I aim to avoid in recommending people avoid speakers under 92dB. Instead of stressing you would be happily buying and enjoying. Oh well. I put this out there for others, that they may avoid ever finding themselves in this situation.

Also to maybe help you realize, there are actually speakers out there you might find a whole lot more enjoyable. It’s not like a skin graft you know. They are holding you back right now. I hope you realize that, as much as you enjoy them, they are holding you back.

The high level sub issue is a non-issue. There are several options and I have covered them all in detail and happy to do so again. But all you need to know for now is as far as the subs go the amp is irrelevant, how they connect is irrelevant, and the speakers are irrelevant. Look at my system. Five subs, three different types, one powered four passive, and I have run them every which way- high level, RCA, you name it- and with different mains. Read my system comments. Some of them were with Talon Khorus, some with Tekton Moab. All mention extremely good coherent bass. Cannot stress enough how irrelevant this is in your decision. Get whatever amp you want, we will figure out how to hook it up. It will not be hard. Easy as pie.

Ozzy62 is absolutely correct. Tube watts are nothing like solid state watts, I don’t care what anyone says these people are what we call "wrong". It isn’t even the tubes. It is what Oz said, the transformers. Look around, you will find tons of people with low sensitivity speakers like yours gushing about how the little Raven with 30 watts drives them with more power and authority than a hundred SS watts. This is what I call situation normal.

It is a shame there’s people around here with severe MDS. Well a shame but entertaining once you are able to see it for what it is. My comments are gold. Some others too. But all that glitters is not gold, and you just have to learn to toss the fool’s gold up on the bank and go back to panning for the real thing.
@sryeager I had a B&K ST-140 for many years till I replaced it with a Rogue Sphinx, which then later replaced with a Blackhawk. Each change has been a significant step up in sound quality. I’m so pleased with the Blackhawk that I’m fully enjoying just listening to music rather than critiquing the equipment. Both the B&K and Rogue amps are 100 wpc, and I’m using the same volume setting (10-11 o’clock) with the Blackhawk as I did with them (my speakers’ sensitivity is 90db).

Does Musical Concepts still do B&K mods?
@facten and tomic601,
+1. Good tube integrated amplifier compared to good tube seperates.
Very interesting.
Charles
FWIW, one of the best output transformers ever designed and built is in the Mac MC240. oh and it measures well also.....

have fun, enjoy the music
i would never gush on and on about an amplifier i have never heard, especially someone who holds your Rel in such disdain....

transformers dominate tube amp sound. Consider a Music Reference RM-9 class amplifier for your Ohm. Roger Modjeski was a genius, hand wound his own output transformers and they were unique to each amplifier....

Oz, pulling for you to weigh in with reality.....
Are all 30wpc tube amps created equal in terms of speaker driving force?

The answer is a hard "no". The quality of the output transformers can vary wildly from design to design. And transformers are the heart and soul of tube amps. Not having heard a Raven amp as of yet, it’s hard for me to say. But all indications are that they sound much more powerful than their power rating would indicate.


BTW, I  had your amp back in the mid 90s. B&K are fine for a budget design, but nothing great about them. Even if you need a more powerful tube amp than the Raven, I would certainly look to replace that B&K with something else.


Oz


Well, millercarbon has got me reading all I can find on Raven.  My concern is I’ve only used a B&K 200wpc (ex442) for the 15 years I’ve had a real stereo system.  It is driving refurbished Ohm Walsh 4s and two REL T5 subs.  The subs are using the high input and wired to the speaker binding posts.  Speakers and subs are seamless, so switching to rca to the subs and a high pass crossover will be a deal breaker.  It’s hard to just have faith 30 watts (osprey) will manage.  The Ohm Walsh sensitivity is 89.  Moving up to the Reflection puts me over the price of the Brystons I have been considering.  Maybe I should find a used 30wpc tube amp and see how it does?  Are all 30wpc tube amps created equal in terms of speaker driving force?  I’ve never thought about tube gear much.

i could also send the B&Ks to Musical Design for refurbishing.

or continue enjoying what’s not obviously broken
Interested ozzy62 in hearing your firsthand and objective assessment regarding the Osprey's musicality and if there are any hum issues or not.
Your only problem will be a sleep disorder, staying up later and later night after night listening and listening to all your records over and over again. Eventually things will stabilize and you will be fine. But the outlook for the next several hundred hours after delivery is not good.
Got word today that my Osprey is supposed to ship on Friday. Crossing my fingers that I won't have the hum problem that some others have had.

Oz



@ozzy62 Yes. It arrived yesterday, I put about 5 hours on the amp and it sounds amazingly clear. I have few details I need to work out but so far seems like a nice piece of equipment.