Raven Audio Nighthawk

Your story reminds me of one time bringing home a phono stage for audition. The store only gave me overnight, I wound up being rushed for time and decided to just plug it in on the floor using the factory cord. It was crap. What a joke. How anyone ever thought this turd was worth anything. Next morning got up early had some time before taking it back moved it to on the BDR Shelf and Cones and power cord and holy crap now we're talking! 

Then recently I was comparing cables and the old ones had been treated with TC while the new ones were bare. In some respects the new ones were better but in others there is just no way until I evened the playing field with TC on the new ones. 

The thing is if you are going to compare apples with apples, compare apples with apples not apples with something almost but not quite
apples.

Not surprised to hear what Dave says. Especially the part about way over 90% just enjoying the amps and never posting about it. Exactly what I thought. The people who do nothing all day but complain and criticize are few in number but travel in packs reinforcing each other. Well, that is what bullies do now, isn't it? Intimidate, tear everyone down. 

Stand up to them, they have nothing. Like the one who trashed Raven, that Dave has no record, never even heard of him. When confronted he disappears.

If only more would disappear, wow, imagine that.

The guys at Raven should ship that amp to @millercarbon free of charge. 

I think it would be wonderful if Dave would ship me Ozzy62's amp for review. Would be such fun to write everything I am sure it will be, including trouble free. Provide a great opportunity to explore just how much damage some of the low-life complainers around here do to our economy and the audio community as a whole. Not that any of them will care. They will go right on fabricating stories about problems they never had (three different ones flat out made up stories while I was waiting for my Moabs, I am sure that is what is going on with at least one of them here) and exaggerating problems that often as not they themselves contributed to. 

Then at the end Dave sells the amp, I ship it to whoever. They are happy to get a tiny little discount on a beautiful amp fully burned in and vetted by one of the best, and Dave gets a full on review by one of the most credible and talented writers around. Plus I get to enjoy a Raven for a few weeks. Not that Dave needs the extra business, but it never hurts to burnish the ol' rep. 

Well, millercarbon has got me reading all I can find on Raven. My concern is I’ve only used a B&K 200wpc (ex442) for the 15 years I’ve had a real stereo system. It is driving refurbished Ohm Walsh 4s and two REL T5 subs. The subs are using the high input and wired to the speaker binding posts. Speakers and subs are seamless, so switching to rca to the subs and a high pass crossover will be a deal breaker. It’s hard to just have faith 30 watts (osprey) will manage. The Ohm Walsh sensitivity is 89. Moving up to the Reflection puts me over the price of the Brystons I have been considering. Maybe I should find a used 30wpc tube amp and see how it does? Are all 30wpc tube amps created equal in terms of speaker driving force? I’ve never thought about tube gear much.

First, I have to stress this is exactly the sort of problem I aim to avoid in recommending people avoid speakers under 92dB. Instead of stressing you would be happily buying and enjoying. Oh well. I put this out there for others, that they may avoid ever finding themselves in this situation.

Also to maybe help you realize, there are actually speakers out there you might find a whole lot more enjoyable. It’s not like a skin graft you know. They are holding you back right now. I hope you realize that, as much as you enjoy them, they are holding you back.

The high level sub issue is a non-issue. There are several options and I have covered them all in detail and happy to do so again. But all you need to know for now is as far as the subs go the amp is irrelevant, how they connect is irrelevant, and the speakers are irrelevant. Look at my system. Five subs, three different types, one powered four passive, and I have run them every which way- high level, RCA, you name it- and with different mains. Read my system comments. Some of them were with Talon Khorus, some with Tekton Moab. All mention extremely good coherent bass. Cannot stress enough how irrelevant this is in your decision. Get whatever amp you want, we will figure out how to hook it up. It will not be hard. Easy as pie.

Ozzy62 is absolutely correct. Tube watts are nothing like solid state watts, I don’t care what anyone says these people are what we call "wrong". It isn’t even the tubes. It is what Oz said, the transformers. Look around, you will find tons of people with low sensitivity speakers like yours gushing about how the little Raven with 30 watts drives them with more power and authority than a hundred SS watts. This is what I call situation normal.

It is a shame there’s people around here with severe MDS. Well a shame but entertaining once you are able to see it for what it is. My comments are gold. Some others too. But all that glitters is not gold, and you just have to learn to toss the fool’s gold up on the bank and go back to panning for the real thing.

Your only problem will be a sleep disorder, staying up later and later night after night listening and listening to all your records over and over again. Eventually things will stabilize and you will be fine. But the outlook for the next several hundred hours after delivery is not good.

I was pretty close to getting one of these last year and so was digging into it pretty good until finally thought let's wait and see and maybe go Reflection. Anyway, can't remember the source if it was from their website, owner's manual (read them all on-line) or talking with James but pretty sure the news was the Osprey is the same in terms of parts but does use a different circuit that enables both the biasing that gives the few extra watts as well as the flexibility to run different tubes. The difference in power is insignificant but the ability to run a wide range of tubes is not. Especially not with Dave and his ability to guide you through the various NOS tubes he has in stock. 

Charles, God you really are insufferable. If you don't like it then do like I do when I see your name, and don't read it. For your own sake though please please please do try and develop a sense of humor.

The beauty of going Osprey, it opens the door Dave Thompson's stock of NOS tubes. I am not into tube rolling. But only because it is such a crapshoot. With an Osprey you have access to Dave and his knowledge of tube selection. There may not be anything like this anywhere else. I'm sure you learned talking with James they can talk you through any changes that may be needed to run some of these tubes. If that is what you have in mind, well good for you!

Sweet. So nice to be proven right.

A lot of the difference between the amps is their bespoke Raven caps. These types of upgrades are always worth it,

Proving yet again it is possible to figure out what is going on without having to bring it home first.

But, could we tone down the hyperbole? Is it really, "WAAYYY better"? Are you sure it isn’t just way better? Can we get a ruling from Charles or whoever is officiating on hyperbole?

That’s a joke, boy. https://youtu.be/EVAdt5bH2tE?t=8

Raven isn't exactly entry level. Kind of like saying the Cayman is an entry level car. For Porsche? Sure. Compared to other cars? Dream on. Same here. There's tons of reviews and comments comparing these to much more respected and expensive amps. I suspect you will be like the typical first time Porsche owner, marveling how "just another car" can be so darn much fun to drive. 

That's probably why the restock fee. Way too many out there want the businessman to subsidize their learning curve.

Haven't compared the two amps but I've done the rough equivalent by going to better caps and diodes. A lot of the difference between the amps is their bespoke Raven caps. These types of upgrades are always worth it, with a significant improvement in detail, less grain, a more liquid natural sound. With Raven your extra also gets a higher quality 4 stage (vs 2 stage) powder coat finish. Hard to see in video buy I bet in person it does look better. I'm sure this is one of those things where if you can go for it, go for it. But if not, don't sweat it.

Why fuss with tubes in an amp?

Not sure if serious........?

Right- it's an insult not an argument.

There's no reason to "fuss". Simply use what comes, it will be fine. The beauty of Raven, if you do want to fuss (what others call tube rolling) you are dealing with Dave Thompson. Tube rolling any other way is a crap shoot. Dave though is a tube connoisseur with encyclopedic knowledge and experience and a vast store of incredible rare NOS tubes. So instead of throwing money around at random tubes you can talk and Dave can help you find your magic tubes. I mean, if the magic as delivered isn't already magic enough!😍

Congratulations Oz, something tells me you will be in heaven. You've probably already come across this in your research but if not this is bound to get you even more excited.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gcd76DZmbdY

Forever/endgame amp is what I've been thinking. Why I'm saving up for a Reflection.

feliks, try posting your problem on a thread that won't be deleted in a day or two and you will get help and answers.