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QUALITY AND SECURITY OF "LITTELFUSE" PRODUCTS
I find the tech specs of LITTELFUSE very informative,enlightening and reassuring.
I am considering using them on my treasured reference level SPECTRAL electronics.
Anyone with experience using or EE level comments? Many thanks. Music lover and long time
audiophile, Peter.
I am considering using them on my treasured reference level SPECTRAL electronics.
Anyone with experience using or EE level comments? Many thanks. Music lover and long time
audiophile, Peter.
102 responses Add your response
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Rodger, Thank you as well for pointing out the use of Teflon as well. It makes me wonder if it is responsible for the length of time it took for the HiFi fuses I used to come into their own. At first, they sounded awful. It took a few days of 24/7 playing to break them in. People around here report no such thing with other types. Yes, there were some areas that needed improvement but all in all, they were impressed right from the start. Now I"m getting the hankering to try some Littlefuses but my system has never sounded as good as it does now (thanks to a lot more than the fuses which were inserted a couple of years ago). I feel my audio nervosa kicking in again. All the best, Nonoise |
Rodger: Thank you for your input. To clarify: Is it the fuse wire being wrapped in Teflon that makes the Hi Fi Brand of fuse not satisfactory in the DC circuit of your amplifiers. I am understanding your post to say that sand filled fuses with no Teflon around the fuse wire decrease the chance of plasma transmitting the surge of destructive energy. Also from your explanation I am understanding that fuses in the A/C circuits are not at risk for plasma transmitting destructive energy to a piece of equipment. David Pritchard |
The reason tuning fuses are unsuitable for fusing tubes is quite simple. When a glass fuse blows in a DC circuit a plasma is formed in the glass cylinder. This plasma continues until the power supply has dumped all of its energy into that tiny fuse making it either explode or melt the holder. Because this dumping of energy goes through things like cathode resistors they can be destroyed. A proper 1/4 amp fuse blows around that value and its not at all critical. However when a fuse goes plasma the current can be many many amps. it is fact only limited by that 1-10 ohm cathode resistor, the output transformer primary resistance and the hot conducting tube.. Plasma conducts lots of current and the voltage drop is very small as the path is short. When the fuse blows there may be 500 volts in the power supply caps divided by even 50 ohms that's 10 amps, not 1/4. Since the output transformer is in this path we should fear for its life. If the primary wire is thinner than the cathode resistor wire it may be the thing to break the circuit and bye bye output transformer. In the RM-9 the cathode resistor opened up. That is the one and only cathode resistor that has every opened in a RM-9. Standard fuses are rated to break circuits at 1500 amps and high breaking fuses 10,000 amps. Now you might say Roger is crazy talking about breaking 10.000 amps in a 1/4 fuse but you see from the previous paragraph plasma does not care that the fuse was 1/4 amp because now it has hot vaporized metal for a conductor. One other point, in a AC circuit things are quite different as AC goes through zero 120 times a second and the plasma dissipates rapidly. How the make theses fuses is quite simple. They fill them with very fine sand.When the element vaporizes the sand fills the space and there is no place for the plasma to form. Gee isn't that simple. The may be made of glass or ceramic (ceramic is simply stronger). Just because a fuse is ceramic there is no guarantee it is filled with sand. So start reading the breaking ratings on Littlefuse and Buss data sheets. When I called the distributor of Tuning fuses and asked if they were high breaking he did not know. I then said, I have ceramic fuses in my amplifier, he said these will be fine as they are ceramic too... oh boy After I repaired the RM-9 that was damaged by tuning fuses i decided to do a little investigation into them. There were 8 of them so you do the math. They cost more than the tubes they are meant to protect and dont protect them at all. The maker of these fuses does something that really demonstrates his lack of knowledge of fuses. There is no breaking rating on these fuses and I doubt they know what a breaking rating is. Its not in any of their tests. Out of simple curiosity I broke one open and found the fuse wire was slipped into a narrow Teflon tube. This is part of their "technology" and is not an easy thing to do. This Teflon tube obviously makes things worse as it further contains the plasma. When people who dont know what they are doing start doing something bad people who know what they are doing need to speak up. Roger A Modjeski Music Reference Ram Tubes... |
Atmasphere wrote, ""Apparently when you run out of rational arguments there is always the old fallback to name calling." Actually no- the principle is ’attack the argument not the person’, otherwise you could report my post. You have mis-stated things, quite clearly. I am saying your statements (arguments) are nonsense- including this one." Your lack of any rational argument again is duly noted. Calling someone’s post nonsense doesn’t qualify as any sort of rational argument. It’s a personal attack, not an attack of the argument. You can’t win any argument by claiming the other fellow’s argument is nonsense or wrong or any such thing. A debate is not over as soon as one person calls the other an idiot or calls his argument stupid or nonsense. Follow? Not to mention your whole LITTELFUSE and Buss fuse defense is actually irrelevant in the context of aftermarket fuses. Any more than claiming Alpha Wire and Belden cables are well made and reliable is relevant to a discussion of audiophile cables. Your claim that LITTELFUSE and Buss fuses are well made and reliable may well be true but as an audiophile, who cares? My recommendation for your next move is to claim, "I don’t really care about aftermarket fuses, anyway." Cheers, geoff kait machina dynamica |
Apparently when you run out of rational arguments there is always the old fallback to name calling.Actually no- the principle is 'attack the argument not the person', otherwise you could report my post. You have mis-stated things, quite clearly. I am saying your statements (arguments) are nonsense- including this one. |
For all folks previously unaware of geoff's non-sense; he can't even spell the name of http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina5.htm correctly. His are the types of "ideas" and "non-sense revelations" that some pathetic individuals and their companys use to try to makes "audio-fools" out of inexperienced audiophiles--by getting them to spend hard earned money--on pure junk; or as they refer to it-crap. My hat is off to the many genuine,intelligent and responsible people in our industry who have and continue to patiently design good products or work to guide music lovers to make wise choices in hi-fi purchases . To people of other ilk; please go in a corner and discuss,promote and market your "crap" to each other.. |
Atmasphere wrote, "In case no-one has made this clear, Littlefuse and Buss are the two top manufacturers of fuses worldwide." Nobody is denying that. Atmasphere also wrote, "Their product is excellent and reliable and beyond reproach." Nobody is denying that, either. All we are saying is give peace a chance. No wait a minute! I meant to say all we are saying is that aftermarket fuses sound better than LITTELFUSE and Buss fuses. Especially when the LITTELFUSE or Buss fuse is inserted backwards. Take a LITTELFUSE or Buss fuse, paint it black with Graphene, cover it with Mu Metal, damp it from vibration, and paint the end caps violet. Trust me, it'll sound better. You can have your cake and eat it too. geoff kait no goats no glory |
Lest anyone take geoffkait "in the least" seriously, please check what nonsense he purports to represent at www.machinadynamica.com/machina5.htm truly as sad an example of non-sense as I've ever seen. And if he feels he's "joking around" he should put some "he-he's" at the end of his comments. (For those of us with respect for serious hi-fi enthusiasts and manufacturers) |
Ralph, yes, that is very conceivable to me, even in the cases of the most astute and sincere listeners. As you’ve probably seen, I’ve mentioned in many past threads how easy it is in audio to attribute a perceived change to the wrong variable. And even if steps are taken to assure that comparisons are made under equal states of warmup, just the fact that power has been cycled could conceivably result in perceptible differences, especially if the component includes significant digital circuitry. We all know how the behavior of a computer can often change when it is rebooted, usually for the better. And unlike a computer the sonics of an audio component may additionally be susceptible to differences in the levels and characteristics of internally generated digital noise that might result from re-initialization of the circuitry. Best regards, -- Al |
Regarding the anecdotal reports Geoff refers to, such as those provided by various A’gon members in the current SR fuse thread, those are the one reason for which my mind remains somewhat open on this issue. Particularly given that some of those reports emanate from sources I consider to be particularly credible, such as Charles1dad among a few others.Al, I suspect the reason they hear a difference is due to the fact that the equipment has to be powered down (and thus also has to warm up) in order to change the fuse. I would not be at all surprised to find out that even though the fuse is now 'correctly' installed, reversing it and listening again would get the same result- as long as an open mind was doing the listening. |
Mapman wrote, "I was given a Synergistic Red Fuse to try. I tried reversing directions. Did not hear a difference. So by geoff’s logic that means there IS NONE. What a joke!" There is an exception to every rule. Of course, there are any number of perfectly good reasons why you didn’t hear a difference. Shall we explore what those are? ;-) |
Al refers to them as anecdotal. I prefer to refer to them as evidence. It’s what folks observe, you know, hear. Folks think of seeing as observation usually, but isn't hearing observation, too? t’s all part of the thing called the scientific method. We have a hypothesis, we test the hypothesis and we accept or reject the hypothesis based on ob-ser-va-tion. It’s actually remarkably simply. As I am fond of saying, it’s the preponderance of the evidence that counts. And there certainly has been a bunch of that, |
One amplifier came in with one of these ’tuning’ fuses which was blown. Usually when the particular fuse location in question is blown, it indicates a service issue, but in this case the amp was fine- once a good fuse (we use Buss and Littlefuse for the most part) was installed. As this fuse was made in Germany, I suspect its the same fuse as Roger Modjesky must have encountered. Even though marked correctly the fuse was not up to its spec! So Roger likely has good reason to not recommend these fuses.1. Since it only occurred once, probability fuse not up to spec is low IMO. 2. Since it only occurred once, possible fuse worked as design and save the amp from damage. I bet if you install another one, it will work. Atmasphere, thanks for sharing your experience. |
Geoffkait 4-8-2016 8:11am EDTRegarding the measurements described in the HFT paper (which Nonoise was kind enough to link to earlier in this thread) which purport to support the notion of fuse directionality: 1)Resistance measurements related to directionality were provided for 16 different HFT fuses, having current ratings ranging from 1.6 amps to 20 amps, as well as for a few competitive fuses and standard glass and ceramic fuses (the specific make of the "standard" fuses being unspecified). The differences in resistance for the HFT fuses in the two directions ranged from 0.000002 ohms to 0.000120 ohms. The differences in resistance for the competitive fuses were a bit greater in some cases, with the worst cases generally being the standard fuses, for which there was one isolated case having a measured difference of 0.005200 ohms. IMO those numbers are so miniscule as to be: (a)Laughable. (b)Very possibly attributable to changes in the voltage of the battery in the measurement meter, from measurement to measurement (each measurement imposing a slight drain on the battery), and from minute to minute. Or if the meter was AC powered, to the very slight differences in AC line voltage that may occur from minute to minute, as various loads are turned on and off at nearby locations. (c)Very possibly attributable to differences in contact pressure and contact area between the meter’s probe tips and the contacts on the fuse. The paper presents separate measurements of fuse resistance as measured in a fuseholder (for just one direction), indicating that the direction-related measurements were performed by touching the meter leads directly to the contacts on the fuse. (d)Perhaps even contributed to by differences in the resistance of the measurer’s body, that would have been paralleled with the resistance of the fuse if he or she had fingers on the probe tips and/or the fuse contacts while the measurements were being taken. (e)If Geoff’s comments about all wires being significantly directional are to be believed, then these differences would be totally swamped by both the resistances and the alleged direction-related resistance differences of the vastly longer associated wiring. In the case of mains fuses, that would include the power transformer and the power wiring in the component, as well as the power cord and the AC wiring in and outside of the house. I’ll say also that the comments I provided on the HFT paper in the "Fuses That Matter" thread (linked to in one of my posts earlier in this thread) do nothing to provide confidence that these measurements were performed in a methodologically scrupulous manner, that would rule out the kinds of extraneous variables described in (b), (c), and (d) above. Regarding the anecdotal reports Geoff refers to, such as those provided by various A’gon members in the current SR fuse thread, those are the one reason for which my mind remains somewhat open on this issue. Particularly given that some of those reports emanate from sources I consider to be particularly credible, such as Charles1dad among a few others. But while in those particular cases I certainly don’t question the reported perceptions, I also don’t rule out the possibility that subtle and non-obvious effects may have been in play which resulted in attribution of the perceived effect to something other than the variable that was actually responsible. Perhaps even differences in contact integrity. If as Geoff indicated the case is indeed closed, I hereby submit a petition for "certiorari" to the highest judicial body having appropriate jurisdiction, namely the individual judgment of each reader of this thread, who can and will decide for themselves. :-) Regards, -- Al |
FWIW, We’ve had boutique fuse manufacturers sending us fuses for years. At least one of them was a customer of ours. Funny thing- none of them have mentioned anything about directionality of the fuse (although one of them is marked as if it is). So we did test these fuses. The ones that are marked with a diode symbol on them are from Germany. Measurements of the fuse show that it has exactly the same characteristics in either direction- in both regular resistance mode of the DVM and also on the diode test function (where it shows a dead short). What we are dealing with here is something called Expectation Bias. This is where there is an expectation that something might be so (regardless of the reason for the expectation) and so a predisposition to perceive that phenomena exists. However, the fact is that in the case of fuses there is simply no difference. This Expectation Bias can arise out of someone with an agenda telling you that a fuse is directional (which might be done by marking the fuse with a symbol); what you are experiencing is some sort of scam or fraud. Again, we do have good reports from our customers regarding such fuses and all reports we have are quite consistent, with one exception: One amplifier came in with one of these ’tuning’ fuses which was blown. Usually when the particular fuse location in question is blown, it indicates a service issue, but in this case the amp was fine- once a good fuse (we use Buss and Littlefuse for the most part) was installed. As this fuse was made in Germany, I suspect its the same fuse as Roger Modjesky must have encountered. Even though marked correctly the fuse was not up to its spec! So Roger likely has good reason to not recommend these fuses. Since the installation of this fuse caused a customer to have downtime and the cost of shipping (about $170.00), I have to agree that these fuses can be problematic! While we are not saying they can’t be used in our gear, I am saying that you may experience fuse failures that are premature. So this aspect should be on your radar should you choose to install such fuses. FWIW, we detected audible issues with fuses about 26 years ago. This was when we were developing and releasing the MA-2 amplifier. Since boutique fuses did not exist back then, we used a different style fuse that uses a larger fuseholder. The fuse is a type FNM (Google it) . It has substantially larger contacts on the fuse and much higher contact pressures in the fuseholder. We still use this system on the MA-2 today. |
Seems like Geoff has appointed himself spokesman for all High End fuse and wire makers. Poor sods! Reason enough to move on. Unless one really cares about wire crystal structures and theoretical physics in hifi audio. Its an easy experiment if one cares enough. Just reverse wire or fuse directions and listen and compare to ones heart content. Or just spend your time enjoying the music if you still can after obsessing about such things. I was given a Synergistic Red Fuse to try. I tried reversing directions. Did not hear a difference. So by geoff’s logic that means there IS NONE. What a joke! |
I have no idea Geoff, and I am not questioning the claims of those who say they hear a difference. What I am doing is asking in all seriousness (snarking aside) how it is a fuse can possibly be directional while operating in an AC circuit.Simple, install one and listen for yourself. Why speculate and pound the slide ruler? We are humans and don't have all the answers. |
bdp24 wrote, "I have no idea Geoff, and I am not questioning the claims of those who say they hear a difference. What I am doing is asking in all seriousness (snarking aside) how it is a fuse can possibly be directional while operating in an AC circuit." If fuses were not directional in AC circuits then we wouldn’t be getting all these reports of directionality. The data sheets provided on the HiFi Tuning web site contain the statement that even for AC - Resistance measurements directionality of fuses was noted. Case closed. Geoff Kait machina dynamics |
I have no idea Geoff, and I am not questioning the claims of those who say they hear a difference. What I am doing is asking in all seriousness (snarking aside) how it is a fuse can possibly be directional while operating in an AC circuit. It is my (admittedly limited) understanding of Alternating Current that to do so is simply, incontrovertibly impossible. So as Jeff Bridge’s character Bad Blake in Crazy Love implored of his manager, enlighten me (and Ralph Karsten, and anyone else curious about how the well-known, understood, accepted, and time-proven properties of Alternating Current can suddenly be suspended). |
Bdp24 wrote, "Now Geoff, could I ask you to explain how a fuse in an AC circuit can be directional? AC, you know, for Alternating Current. Ralph Karsten must have skipped that chapter in his electronics engineering books. Of course, perhaps they weren’t "New Age" textbooks." You might consider not adopting the snarky attitude. Let me ask you a question, do you think that all of the fuse customers, you know, the ones who actually installed aftermarket fuses, reported right here on this forum hearing the difference between when the fuse was installed in the correct direction and when it was installed in the wrong direction were high on PCP? Or that there is a global conspiracy to drive pseudo skeptics crazy? |
Good points Al. The only thing I would ad is that I myself am not comfortable installing fuses designed by someone unfamiliar with the concept of breaking capacity into my $5000 amplifier, and I am glad Roger brought the information about the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuses being inappropriate for my amp to my attention. I shared that information here for the benefit of anyone else who might have made the same mistake as Roger's customer, thinking I was doing a good thing. Joe apparently disagrees with me! |
Exhibit A, this just in... from Steve Hoffman’s web site, date 2004, "Here is what Bill Low (owner of Audioquest) says about directionality: "Directionality: All cables are directional, from hardware store electrical cable to the finest pure silver cables. All AudioQuest cables are marked for direction. With other cables it might be necessary to simply listen to the cables in one direction and then the other. The difference will be clear-in the correct direction the music is more relaxed, pleasant and believable. While cable directionality is not fully understood, it is clear that the molecular structure of drawn metal is not symmetrical, providing a physical explanation for the existence of directionality."" geoff kait, machina dynamica |
The following was composed prior to seeing Bdp24’s post just above: Regarding Bdp24’s statement which Joecasey quoted above, according to Stereophile’s review of the RM9 the amplifier’s main B+ supply is 450 volts. That would be DC of course. Although Bdp24’s reference to the HFT fuses not being "suitable for use in a DC circuit" was perhaps worded a bit ambiguously, I suspect that what he was alluding to is that the HFT fuses didn’t blow when they should have because they did not have sufficient "breaking capacity" for a 450 volt application. NOT that those or other audiophile-oriented fuses are unsuitable for use in **any** DC application (which appears to be what Joe interpreted the statement to mean). If that same fuse (or a similar fuse differing only in its current rating) had been used in an AC mains application, it would only have had to deal with 120 volts (in the USA and other 120 volt countries), rather than 450 volts, which it presumably/hopefully would have been able to "break" reliably. See the Littelfuse link in one of my earlier posts in this thread for the definition of "breaking capacity." Regards, -- Al |
Sheesh! There are only two issues I myself addressed: 1- The claim of fuse directionality in an AC circuit is, as Ralph Karsten keeps saying, simply impossible. Of that there can be no dispute. None. 2- In the case of, yes Joe, one amplifier being damaged by the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse being used in a DC application, the great electronics designer (there, I said it) Roger Modjeski of Music Reference received a returned-for-repair RM9 power amplifier. Upon inspection, Roger discovered that all eight HFTF that had been installed in the amp had failed to blow when presented with a short from a bad power tube---the very job they are intended to perform. Further, Roger, upon inspecting the fuses, found them to not be of high breaking capacity design, a necessity in the application in which they were employed. In conversing with the designer of the fuse and it’s American distributor, he learned that neither was aware of that term. Therefore, Roger warned the owners of his amplifiers (which have fused power tubes) against installing the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse in his amps. That’s all. What’s the f’in problem, Joe? I had no idea letting people know about a potential risk in installing that particular fuse in a DC application would so upset you. I’ll never mention it again. Roger does, however, approve of the Littlefuse brand of fuses, and infact installs them in his amps. They DO possess high breaking capacity, and were designed by an engineer who DOES know what the term means, and it’s significance, importance, and necessity in a fuse. I said nothing about the sonic benefits of audiophile fuses, nor would I. That’s a separate discussion of which I have no interest in joining. |
There must be thousands of advanced audiophiles, you know, the ones who actually care about fuses and sound quality who, unlike manufacturers, DID get the memo regarding fuse directionality. What we have here ladies and germs is The Backfire Effect in full bloom. High entertainment for sure. Ones things for sure, pseudo skeptics like to rant and carry on but you will never see them actually get down to brass tacks and investigate these claims of directionality. They'd rather fight than switch. |
bdp24atmasphere, Re-read bdp24 initial post above. |
