^In that the deletions were reversed, why would there be such doubts?
Put that in your pipe(s) and smoke it
I'll say it again: let's seek out the gem's and leave the rest, folks. Ignore the trolls, or be selective of the actual content they bring up - should you choose to reply; it may even hold an unexpected, worthwhile observation or two on a subject that could put into perspective our endeavors here.
More importantly, if we want this forum to allow for free speech and a degree of resilience, some around here should reconsider their liberal urge to hit the 'report' button, because that's the thing that truly annoys me and what I'd call the real trolls around here: the one's feeling offended on grounds I imagine to be so relative to their own agenda, indeed petty in nature, that their reporting a post or thread is likely to see no further inquiry by the admins and is therefore, simply by virtue of being a report alone, put into effect as an actual deletion.
We should be able to hold a conversation without someone feeling taken aback over what is, in the bigger scheme of things, insignificant issues. If not it's an ongoing, sad tendency to shut the mouths of those we don't agree with, or for some other flimsy reason don't like.
More importantly, if we want this forum to allow for free speech and a degree of resilience, some around here should reconsider their liberal urge to hit the 'report' button, because that's the thing that truly annoys me and what I'd call the real trolls around here: the one's feeling offended on grounds I imagine to be so relative to their own agenda, indeed petty in nature, that their reporting a post or thread is likely to see no further inquiry by the admins and is therefore, simply by virtue of being a report alone, put into effect as an actual deletion.
We should be able to hold a conversation without someone feeling taken aback over what is, in the bigger scheme of things, insignificant issues. If not it's an ongoing, sad tendency to shut the mouths of those we don't agree with, or for some other flimsy reason don't like.
113 responses Add your response
unsound6,532 posts10-29-2020 11:22am I have experienced it first hand.I find it doubtful that you've had posts arbitrarily deleted. ... It now seems more difficult to respond to notices of deletions, and even if one is successful in making contact, such petitions are often ignored.I have found the Audiogon team to be extremely responsive and thoughtful to inquiries. You're the first one to claim you've been ignored, AFAIK. |
unsound The issue at hand is that, despite conforming to the rules as prescribed by the hosts, that posts are being deleted just because a complaint has been made. When such decisions are arbitrarily made it potentially negates the purpose and value of the forum.Posts aren’t deleted arbitrarily. Many people who claim otherwise haven’t actually read the rules. You might want to read the FAQ. Also, you might want to note this: ... all members are responsible for maintaining a professional and cordial demeanor on and off the site including our forums. We will not tolerate the use of hostile, offensive, profane or vulgar language. |
My speech is not the same with my love one, with my friends, with a work collegue or with a customer, not the same with an old lady waiting in a line or with a scientist, nor is it the same with the pope, or with an imam, or with a buddhist monk.... Why? Because being free and polite i discern with whom i speak with.... Because i use my free speech ability (not rights) to translate my feelings, ideas, approprietely... What we say and the style or manner to say it matter... I never discuss quantum dynamic with my grandmother, nor will discuss free speech "rights" here ... And any forum is linked with his own regulatory speech recommendations....It is a good thing to respect them and a good thing also from the regulators to allow some flexibility....A good thing to any of us NOT to use the "button" except in some evident case of disrespect....I never used it before because it is better i think to read "example" of stupidity than to erase them all, most of the times....Censorship is not my first reaction.... Interesting discussion are interesting only if respect is all along the discussion..... If respect is there even some politic arguments are interesting.... But experience here dictate to me total restraint about that precise road fork because people most of the times think less with one another than they speak useless opinions mantras.....Politics is way much complicated than audio matters anyway....If people cannot agree in audio basic facts imagine politics.... :) Then it is way better to speak audio, philosophy, psychology etc, but not politics or religions.... :) |
+1 djones51's point about the general point of this forum being respected. One other things is relevant to his point, too -- it's really of value to our ability to get along as people to have a space where we keep politics *out*. I really would prefer to talk about audio with people and form bonds with them completely outside of politics. If, down the road, politics comes up (say, off the forum) any disagreements we might have will be more negotiable because we took the time to form friendly bonds about audio, first. Inject politics in the beginning and the chance for camaraderie diminishes dramatically. |
This forums value and purpose is to discuss music and the equipment that reproduces it, if the moderators allow the subject to stray to far afield from that purpose then it's value has been diminished. This arena is not the public square where any idiot can scream at the top of his voice his displeasure on any subject and when I see conspiracy theory nonsense and links to sites that promote them you can bet I'm banging on the report flag. |
Debating whether some use the report button to often has nothing to do with free speech is part of the point, yes, but I also question this use of these terms "thought police" , "snowflakes " and others used to stifle debate and inject invective. Who are the "thought police"? Tossing the term thought police is in itself policing thought so who are these persons other than all of us. This forum is not a free speech arena as some seem to think and the precedent whether unfortunate or not is a matter of debate as well. |
@mozartfan -- Here come the mods ready to shut this topic. My takeaway with the specific cases was some users being ninjas with the 'report'-button, not deletions originally prompted by the admins. @nonoise -- To wake up and see my post removed for something so petty, and wrong, was off-putting. One relates.. @hilde45 -- ... If this thread is so worthless, why take any time to read it or comment upon it? If talking about trolling...is pretty much...trolling, then talking about talking about trolling is...more trolling. +1 @cal91 -- phusis...I'm glad you clarified your use of the term "liberal", but it did come across as political. ... English not being my first language is hardly an excuse, but at the time of posting it felt like a "good enough" term to use in the context of my intention. Oh well.. ... Political correctness is simply being a decent person. It can also be playing a converging tune that takes the form of an unfortunate precedence, or as poster @unsound put it: "There’s nothing wrong with expecting people to be decent to each other. But it’s another thing to invite the thought police." @hilde45 -- ... The "free speech" business is an attempt to cut the OP's original topic short, which attempts to raise the question of norms or best practices. In the OP's view, stifling discussion with the "report" button doesn't allow for a sufficiently vigorous exchange of ideas. That's a reasonable issue to discuss and debate, itself, but it's not in the arena of "free speech." Eloquently put. |
+1 djones51. The "free speech" business is an attempt to cut the OP's original topic short, which attempts to raise the question of norms or best practices. In the OP's view, stifling discussion with the "report" button doesn't allow for a sufficiently vigorous exchange of ideas. That's a reasonable issue to discuss and debate, itself, but it's not in the arena of "free speech." When kids get together for an informal game of soccer or touch football, one of the things which gets debated along the way is what the rules are and what the rules should be. It's rare for kids to say, "but that's illegal" in a formal sense -- because appealing to standards beyond the situation of their game is ridiculous. That, I take it, is your point, djones51. |
Nothing in this forum has anything to do with your first amendment right of speech which only applies to government action. If you're not being tossed in jail or fined by the state for your audiogon posts then relax. You can even yell fire in a crowded theater , if it's on fire. This is a private forum open to members and the moderators can police it how they see fit. If you don't like it you do have the constitutional right to leave. The biggest problem isn't thought police or slippery slopes but people who haven't the foggiest idea what the constitution guarantees in relation to enumerated rights. |
Again, I have never reported anyone and have no intention of ever doing so. But as another poster has pointed out, freedom of speech is not absolute. While nobody on these forums is shouting fire in a crowded theater, there are a lot of personal attacks and name calling. I've been called a Marxist among other things. I just find it silly, but what should be the response to personal attacks? Let it go? Delete the posts of those not playing by the rules? There are rules, right? And if there are, by posting on these forums haven't we agreed to abide by the rules? I believe some posts should be deleted, but that means you're letting a person decide, who might have an agenda of their own, and delete only the posts that don't conform to their personal politics. To keep this from turning into a book I'll just say we should all try to show respect, and call out the posters who have shown they can't play nice with their fellow posters. |
What some people call political correctness is to others simply showing compassion and understanding for their fellow humans. Why do some people feel their rights are being trampled because it's no longer acceptable to call people of color and people with physical disabilities the nicknames that have been used in the past? What's wrong with referring to or addressing them in the way they prefer? Political correctness is simply being a decent person. |
phusis...I'm glad you clarified your use of the term "liberal", but it did come across as political. I've never used the report button, and I do believe in free speech. But I also believe in civility and being respectful of others. I am often disappointed by posters who use the anonymity afforded by the use of user names to make personal attacks against others. Just because you can be nasty and call people names without legal repercussions doesn't mean it's OK. |
First, I've been an active member on many forums (music, single malt, bbq, woodworking, and a few that need not be mentioned) and this forum is second only to the Phish forum for rudeness, arrogance, and self-centeredness. I love this place, and most folks are intelligent and helpful, but it's still far too often a hostile place. I'm all for the mods eliminating the rudeness. Respect is not something consistently practiced here. Second, I'd say some people need a lesson on "freedom of speech." For one thing, we've never had more "freedom of speech" in this country; the internet gives a platform to every kook and lunatic out there. See: the abundance of conspiracy theories that are dangerous and nuts. More importantly, freedom of speech is not and has never been absolute. Not only are there many types of speech that are not tolerated (most famously yelling fire in a crowded building) but communities are free to make their own standards, as long as they don't trespass on constitutionally protected speech. A classroom, a concert hall, a living room, a town park, an internet forum--communities have every right to insist on manners and respectful conduct. No one's speech if being abridged out here; the moderators are merely asking for civility and decorum in discussing ... stereo equipment. And that has nothing to do with freedom of speech. |
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If you or others insist on the political connotation, well, there’s a case of classic projection.No, it was not the "political' connotation. Denotation of the word, liberal, is by far, most commonly used in the political way. To wake up and see my post removed for something so petty, and wrong, was off-putting. All the best, Nonoise |
Freedom of expressing ones opinions/ideas is losing ground The future will be all about censorship and being 100% politically correct. I say its a good thing to expose the labs which can not produce high quality components. At a reasoable price and those that can not offer a full service 5 year warranty, with FREE shipping both ways. |
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I’d say you get your fair share. I endeavor to keep mine minimal. Zero share for me would be desired.. Gotta be more constructive topics than the value added by trolls to discuss I would hope. At the same time I maintain my position I’ve stated many times prior....I am anti-censorship and it can be a very fine line sometime between what is acceptable or not. On the other hand, nobody should be expected to tolerate bad behavior....neither here nor anywhere else. SO it’s not the case that anything goes. That’s why forums provide tools for users to use to help keep things in line when needed. |
OP, agree about not reporting too frequently. Tolerance leaves the door open to creativity and letting people come back and clarify what they might have said badly the first time. The norm I see you protecting is as follows: posts should stay on topic or explain the relevance of their tangent, unless things just drift away. E.g. a post on speaker connectors might drift toward types of wire, ways to hear differences, etc. When a comment harps on a topic (beats a dead horse) or injects inflammatory and irrelevant topics or vitriol, well, that seems to defy the purpose we're all here. It has nothing to do with "freedom of speech." It has to do with keeping the game fun and interesting. |
@b_limo -- ... u ever try talking to Kenjit? No, I imagined early on an empty food bowl would be the best to leave here, but seems to me he’s been well fed. That’s not saying there can’t be something of worth in his writings, as I pointed out earlier. Look, this is not about named poster or a defense of him/her. It’s about subjects that can be relevant to these boards, and that finding them can come from places one wouldn’t expect. Plus all the rest I’ve already drawn out. |
