Grannyring, what tubes (names & model numbers) do you have in the Syrah now? It is possible to get more bass impact, weight and body by tube rolling in the Syrah. I just need to know your tube compliment to get an idea where you're starting from. |
In the power supply,
2 - 5881/16L6WGL Sovtek
1 - 5Z4GT Phillips
Main unit,
2 - 6C45N-L - No brand name I could fine but the tube # was in a design that looked like a tube.
2 - 6L45N - E - Same company as above
Hope this helps. Pretty sure they are all stock tubes and the unit has not been retubrd from the factory. Built in August of 2001.
Thanks,would a AC cord help - you use a Moray cable I have never heard of.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill |
Cottection, the main unit has all 4 smaller front tubes the same,
6C45N-E,
I incorrectly thought two were (-L) however they were (-E) rubbed out a little.
Thanks,
Bill |
Hi Grannyring - sounds like you've got the stock tubes so almost anything you do will be an improvement. Many of the Supratek users on the board here use the Tung Sol 5881 in as regulator tubes and Mullard GZ-30-somethings as a rectifier. That is a very nice combo but I'd be willing to bet you can find something you like better - experimentation is the key to finding what fits your taste and synergizes best with your system.
One tube you left out is the 6SN7 tube.... That's the KEY to the Supratek sonics. I recommend Raytheon VT-231, Tung Sol Round Plate 6SN7GT and Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231's as great choices for the Syrah. I'd say the Raytheon is the least colored followed by the Tung Sol and then the Ken Rad.
Sylvania VT-231's and the 6SN7WGT (metal base) are good choices for the most open sound you can get out of the Syrah. The 6SN7WGT's are expensive and sound like all sylvania's sound slightly metallic to me but if you're into music like Enya, there is nothing better.
My favorite 6SN7 is the Ken Rad Black Glass VT231.
More on Rectifiers:
The Bendix 6106 is great. Good strong bass... nice mids, nice highs. Overall, I'd say this is the best choice for use in the Supratek but.. there are situations where the Bendix will absolutely not work. Some tube combos just clash with the Bendix and the pace / timing of the music goes crazy.
The old GEC/MO-Valve/Cossor/Genalex/etc U54 is nice. Very nice! These are pretty rare.
Regulator tubes:
Any 6L6 variant will work and they all sound tremendously different. The best of the best are the GEC/Genalex KT66 if you want the ultra seductive liquid mids.. The WE or NU 350B for more brutal honesty - superb bass - a real "you are there" type of sound. Almost too much for me but its what I'm using now.
The Sylvania 5932 - three types - and they are all very good. The most common, black plate with holes variety is the most neutral and/or accurate / realistic sounding tube I've heard in this application except... neutral is boring.
The rare dual black plate version is almost as good as the GEC KT66 for liquidity and seductive sound but mixes in some of that accuracy for a nice blend. The black plate without holes version - I haven't spent too much time with but as far as I can tell, its similar to the "holed" version but offers a little more personality, character and as such is not as dull as the neutral holed version.
RCA Metal 6L6. Cheap & ugly. Wide soundstage but a bit thin & somewhat see-through.
As for the Syrah phono tubes - I do not have any experience rolling those so I cannot comment.
Ecclectique has in the past made some awesome "tube related" posts to this thread. Scan through his posts to get more insight on tubes. |
Hello Grannyring. Congrats on the supratek choice and welcome to the forum.Regarding Nos tubes: Not much more to add on my behalf as Mr Bwhite's assessment of the nos tubes choices for the supratek is really very accurate. He has pretty much "dialed in" the sonic signature of those tubes.{Kudos to Bryon and very well said!}Regarding phono Tubes: I personally preferr the Amperex 5842 gold pin over the Western Electric 417a [most WE 417a's tend to be a little more microphonic]I also use the mullard GK5's in the phono but the nos RCA's are great as well and their influence have never really been an issue with me.I use a Koetsu Roewood mc,mind you I do preferr the RCA's with the Shelter 501.The voice of the cartridge used in the phono may very well dictate ones choice of tube here as the RCA's are a tiny bit brighter in the treble region. I am really quite certain that any of the nos tube choices mentioned in Bwhites post will literally mesmerize you. Enjoy! |
I would echo much of what Bwhite said.
I love the WE 350B's. Far and away the best regulator in my opinion. I like the RCA Metal 6L6's next and then the GEC KT66's.
Both the Ken Rad and the 1952 Syls are excellent 6SN7 variants.
Mullard 5AR4 (GZ34) is outstanding. I had the timing and pace problems with the Bendix that Bwhite described, but others have loved this rectifier. If you are interested, let me know, its brand new.
The good news is the Supratek is so transparent that you can mix and match tubes until you find the combo that you like. Believe me, you can find any sound you want if you play with the tubes enough. |
Ecclectique: In reply to your post of 20.01.04, I apologise for not responding earlier but I have been laying wood floors in my home and have had to put the hi-fi thing to one side ...
I can tell by your post that you are a fan of Proac and it's designer Stuart Tyler. Also that you have good ears, because you have pegged the sound of Proac as 'beautiful' (which is precisely as I would describe it). Tyler is a master speaker designer, and having heard the Response 3.0; the 2.5; Studio 200 & 150; and the excellent Proac EBS(with ATC dome midrange), I would say that all of his speakers have a similar sonic signature, that is, they have good bass, musicality in spades and a 'beautifulness' about the sound.
Tyler has a few tricks up his rather long sleeves to achieve this sound. Namely, from what I know ...
- the crossover usually has an in-built 'BBC monitor dip' in the treble and midrange region to give that soft, mellow listenable character. Surprisingly, without too much of a loss of detail. This is different from many of the overtly detailed/lean sounding US audiophile speakers.
- usually Proac speaker boxes 'sing', that is, they are tuned to resonate whereas as other audiophile speakers are inert, heavy and dead sounding.
- he has some tricks (alternative thinking) applied in the crossover design, e.g, in the Response 2.5 the phase of the tweeter is in reverse to the mid/bass driver. This results in the 'beautifulness' that we like.
With respect to my own Proac 2.5, it is a great speaker and IMO it will go down in history as a Classic. However, in comparing it to my Electrostats and other audiophile cone designs I have/had in my collection including three-ways using Raven ribbons/Accuton Ceramics/Seas Magnesium/Beryllium drivers, the 2.5 has an obvious hole in the mid that IMO needs to be resolved (for want of a better word).
This has lead me to marrying a Raven R-1 tweeter to the Proac Response 2.5. It is IMO a marriage made in heaven! All of the great bass, musicality and voicing of the original 2.5 is retained. But the upper mid is much more resolved, and inciciveness, detail, air and transparency in the treble region is greatly improved...almost rivalling the audiophile speakers that I have mentioned! A tiny bit of the Proac magic is lost, but this is more than compensated by the other gains to be had with the Raven modification.
I have to say that after listening to the Raven cloned Proac Response 2.5, the original version with the cheap Scanspeak tweeter is just downright boring!
All of this is particularly relevant if you own a Supratek Syrah/Cortese/Grange preamp, because you cannot appreciate the full potential of these pre's until you have a speaker with the speed and detail of Electrostatics or Raven ribbon tweeters.
Regards,
Steve M. |
For Granny:
Guys, no good in going WE 350 right off the bat...nothing is ever as good as we think it is, and this increases in effect when you look at from when, well, someone is looking at it. Look at where someone is, the curve, and make the recomm from there.
Go, for now:
Tung 5881 for Sovteks, no doubt
Hold off on the Ken blacks on the 6SN7's. Coming from Resolution CD and SS Parasound amps, regardless of their SS harmonic complexity, its, remember, a SS context (Crump would venture, agree on the context qualifier). As such, Kens might alienate with its, um, distant depth (the bass on the Kens is so good because it dissipates so naturally into the depth field, but from SS perspective this is a lost perspective, at least intitially, in a search for "lost" dynamics, and particularly in the bass octaves). Go Sylvania VT 231 circa 1940 era for now. If still too "vague" in bass, then Brimars, then later to Ken blacks. Stay away from metal base; over rated, at least in this application, ie no use going brittle to get the semblance of quickness.
Get Mullard GZ 34 - experiment from there if the mood moves you.
Do line stage first, then move onto phono NOS tubes.
Don't do all at once; get one, listen, for SUFFICIENT time, then, if need be, something else. Listen to others, become enthused, but don't move too fast, or the listening ear will be left behind. The mind needs time to aclimatize to each change, especially when from one "kind" of emphasis to another, ie from SS emphasis (no matter how good the SS) to stuff like the Supra.
Good luck! Very glad you are happy, much ahead... |
Asa
The Parasound Halo JC1 is the onlu=y SS amp I have ver owned. I am a true blue tube man. But these SS mono's are the best amp I have heard on my speaker by a wide margin.If I xlosed my eyes I would have NEVER guessed it was a SS amp. Would have bet is was a powerful tube brute with dozens of glowing tubes. Except the bass is better than any tubes I have heard.
I want to thank everyone for the great info on the tubes. I will start one tube/pair at a time and give my ears a chance to understand what is happening.
I do notice quite a bit of tube hiss through my speakers. I suppose this is common on the Syrah? When my Opus went directly into my amps it was dead quite. I also had to put cheater plugs on both amps and the pre to rid my system of an aweful ground loop hum. Hate spending all the money on dedicated 20 amp outlets, PS audio outlets, high end power cables and introduce this .59 cent cheater plug!
Do love the pre and wonder if anyone else had the same ground loop problem.
Grannyring |
Granny- If I remember you got your used as did I. Did you get the "manual". If you did, re-read it and you will see that Mick used unshielded wire throughout and you also have the umbilical. Combined with the overall high system gain, there are lots of opportunities for hum and noise. I had to re-arrange the two pieces, and re-dress the umbilical to get rid of the hum, but now it is as quiet as a tube piece will ever be. There IS crosstalk between sources, so you will have to shut off one when you listen to another (or at least I do). I also am using a Balanced Power unit, but have had that for a while. Of course ground loops can be a bitch, but you may not actually have a loop. If the pre is closely positioned to a powerful transformer, you can definately get hum. Try moving things around and you should be able to get rid of the cheaters (if not, give me a shout and I've got a Vans Evers power cord with a 2 prong plug and separate ground wire you might want to borrow. |
Power Cord for Supratek's! Grannyring - sorry I haven't replied to you about the power cord for the Syrah.... I have been waiting to determine if this new cord is better than the old. *I* think the old cord is better but the designer seems to think his new one is better..
Also, once you get through reading this, you'll understand why my recommendation of this cord was not as easy as just stating the name.
Here we go...
The cord I am using and recommend is called a Moray James PWR1.5. It doesn't do much to increase the bass but what it does do is magical on the Supratek. After you listen to a Supratek with this cord, you'll realize that the stock unit sounds dull and lifeless by comparison. The effects of this cord are a bit difficult to detect since they are not night/day tonality differences like many of the more popular "over the top" sounding power cords. Instead, this cord simply adds a very "happy" / "snappy" and/or lively character to the Supratek which once heard is difficult to live without.
Moray James can be reached at: morayj1@juno.com
He will most likely try to sell you on his new cord. I think the new one sounds similar in some ways but somehow is "cardboardy" and lacks that certain "happy" quality found in the old cord.
Caveats - In some cases, the cord can be somewhat "bright" (slightly) in some systems which lean in that direction - or have poor room acoustics. I have heard this cord in in multiple systems with multiple Suprateks and in each system it has been the best cord - period. My room is one of those with poor acoustics (hardwood floors) and as a result, I was forced to find a solution. The Moray James 1.5 straight into the wall (PS Audio Power Port Outlet) was a bit too much for me. I could have changed out the outlet but decided to go a different route. I used a DIY extension cord made from Carol 12/3 cable (warmish sounding), a 15A Male Furutech copper plug and a 15A Leviton female connector. This cord adds enough warmth to the Moray James to make it acceptable in my room and for my tastes.
Everyone else who has used this cord goes straight into the wall - no problemo - but they all have carpeted rooms.
On the Supratek specifically, this cord has sounded better than top of the line cables from Electraglide, Omega Mikro, Sahuaro, NBS, Shunyata, FIM, Harmonix, Cardas and others. I have not compared this cord to David Elrod's cords yet.
Should you decide to try this cord, please be sure to specify that you want the OLD PWR1.5 cord! Also, be sure to get Moray to commit to a 30 day trial..
If anyone would like more information or is interested in discussing this further, I would be happy to assist - just go ahead and email me. |
Asa, I will happily disagree with your advice to Granny. I hate to look back on all the time I wasted listening to inferior tubes, pc's, isolation footers, etc. I wish I had arrived at my current combination of gear and ancillary products in my sytem from day one. I enjoy listening to my system at it's best rather than taking some sort of hit or miss journey along the way. Many here on the 'Gon and at AA have helped me enormously and I can't believe how much better my system is now. It is night and day.
When I make my next upgrade, I will again ask for advice from owners on how to achieve the optimum sound of my new gear right from the start. Maybe its just me, but I have never understood the rationale, "No, don't listen to the best yet, try some inferior tubes, pc's, ic's, etc. so you will have something to compare the best to."
I think experimenting is fine, especially if you are talking about fine tuning. But I'm one who had rather ask for a consensus on what is best and if there is general agreement, that's the way I go. I don't want to re-invent the wheel. If enough people tell me a certain tube sucks or is simply inferior, I don't need to find out for myself. Experience has taught me that a number of guys here know their stuff and I don't need to hear mediocre tubes or whatever just to say I heard them.
I think I may have been the first or second Supratek owner to try WE 350B's in their Supratek. Looking back, I wish I had put them in the day I received my Chardonnay. Instead, I listened to several other good (and sometimes expensive) regulators only to eventually try the WE's. The 350B's are the cat's meow for me.
Most of what we post here is subjective, but in my opinion if Granny wants to get the best out of his Supratek, especially with the world-class JC 1's, he should use WE regulators, Ken Rad, Syl or Tung Sol (round plate) 6SN7's and a Mullard GZ 34 rectifier.
I am sure there are others that will disagree with my choices, but I have tried many other combinations and for me, there is no going back.
I will admit that at times I have enjoyed hearing the "step up" in sound from tube rolling, adding power cords, isolation, star grounding all of my equipment, etc. However, I wish I had known from day one what I know now because it would have saved me a lot of time, money and crappy sound. |
I will try the Mullard GZ-30, WE350B's and the Ken Rad Black Glass VT231. First, what brand are the WE350's(Is that Western Electric?)Not sure where to buy these tubes on the net? Thanks to all for all of the wonderful help.
Grannyring |
I agree with Grannyring about his comments on the Parasound JC-1's. I have a friend who is running the JC-1's with a Joule Electra pre and Soundlab M1 speakers. The sound is fabulous. You would think you were listening to a pair of very powerful tube amps. The JC-1's take a long time to break in, but when they do, they are truly amazing! He also just got the Meitner Dac 6 and Phillips 1000 modified player. CD sound is fantastic and SACD is superb. |
Hi guys, I am having some problem with my Syrah and I would like to share it with you all.
I received my Syrah about 6 months ago. After using it for 3 months I started hearing some noise on the left channel of the phono stage. I discussed with Mick on email for some time but couldn't solve the problem so I sent it back to him for inspection. Guess what the problem is?? Mick re-soldered the left 6GK5 adaptor and the noise is gone! Mick was very kind to pay for the return shipping but I have already paid $175 for sending it back ($80 for shipping and $95 for customs). I think this is very ridiculous that the Austrialian government charged me the import duties!
So, the noise was gone when I received the Syrah back in Nov last year. Unfortunately, the problem happened again a few weeks ago! This time the noise is heard on both channels (right channel is louder). Same as before, the problem is only with the phono stage.
I remember that someone has encountered the same problem before. Has anyone else had this problem too? To be very honest I can't afford to send it back for inspection again. |
Ecmlee, Sorry to hear of your trouble. As you mention, Mick does bend over backwards to help in situations like yours but the shipping and import duties are ridiculous. My suggestion to you and others in the US who have issues with their Supratek would be to find a local technician who can diagnose and fix minor problems like these.
At one point Mick mentioned to me that he had a (growing) list of technicians in the US. I am not sure how that list has progressed or if he still uses the services of these technicians - perhaps you can inquire.
In some cases, Mick has paid for the repairs or provided reimbursement but the "high" cost some of these technicians charge frustrates Mick - especially when he believes the tech's did nothing.
Do some research and discuss with Mick. I am sure you'll find a solution that works for you. |
As one who is considering the purchase of a Supratek preamp, I wouldn't stand for this situation (especially when the Art Audio factory is practically in my backyard). Mick needs to appoint/designate one (or two at the most) reputable and competent technicians as Supratek certified for handling all warranty work. Mick can work out some reasonable compensation arrangement with these tech's. This arrangement seems so obvious. |
With the problems mentioned, I wonder what is the validity of the Supratek preamp raves, of several members. Regardless of how good a product is sonically, if the monetary concerns of having the gear running are ever present, as per the post by EMCLEE, doesn't that mean that the quality of the product itself is questionable? Doesn't that detract the product from serious consideration as a standard bearer of a certain type of product, in regards to a price point? I have heard of several companies that charge not small sums of money for their products, but that have several reliability issues. To that fact, I wonder how good Suprateks can ever be or become.
PS: Even if one becomes the owner of the finest preamp in the planet, what is the point of being so if one needs to possible have the preamp off to the repair shop for a couple of weeks at the time, as well as paying for shipping and duties, on top of the already full price one has paid for that piece? I remember a certain manufacturer who had the same reputation....Metronome??? That French manufacturer of really Shi--y transports that when functioning were awesome, but I think most of the Metronome owners spent their time in UPKEEP, AKA: sending the unit back to the manufacturer for repair. Of course, everything was worth it when they could play a couple of CDs before sending it for the next repair. |
First, how many actually break or have a problem? One in 40, one in 70. Pretty small chance/risk. Second, paying full price is $2500, not $8000 like many of the preamps I have owned from Thor, Wavac and Audio Note. The Syrah bests all three of these and has a great phono section! None of the above three had phono at those list prices.
Be honest, folks pay $300 for NOS tubes and power cords, including me, that still dont bring other preamps up to the level of the Syrah. Again, when looking at this reasonably the cost/risk ratio is very, very low.
Grannyring |
On Halo's: OK, I'm glad everyone is happy, sincerely. As I said, however, I think even Bob Crump would concede on my point (and has...). Yes, on Sound Labs that would be a good match. Many people, I believe, are using that combo. When we can run a 300B or 45 into a Sound Lab, then we all be happy! :0)
Fiddler: I'll assume you just wanted to yap on a little (and I mean that in the nicest way possible :0). But, I did not say that one should forego advice wholesale, which is, um, from your tone, what one would assume. Everyone is different, of course, and with different learning curves. If yours' was steeper, OK, that's certainly OK, and maybe the gentleman that I was speaking to might be too - I don't know him - but, regardless, my advice remains valid.
Yes, I know, no one wants to go through pain, or inconvenience, or money, but through that we learn; its a simple axiom, and its recognition has nothing to do with a desire for masochism. I'm sure that some mistakes we would have liked to avoid, but many - no, all - make you, me and your listening mind what they are, here, now. To fail to see what has made one is, well, a point for further learning (through, ironically, more pain...).
On reliability: mine hasn't burped once. If you want perfect security - which I would argue is the marketed illusion of perfect security, at least as far as the hi end goes - then, well, yes, you should look elsewhere. The Syrah is for those who through the pain of failed experimentation have arrived here, and know better.
You can't describe the color purple to a blind man; he lacks a sufficient point of reference, experientially. If a sample of one burp is enough to discount that which doesn't occupy a full-page Stereophile ad, then I really can't say anything...except perhaps that I hope you have many more mistakes - and finally join us here. |
Well said Grannyring & ASA! Suprateks are very reliable IMO, due to the lack of circuit boards and simple but high quality construction.
I ran a Cortese Preamp for more than 2 years for 4-8 hours a day, seven days a week without a single hiccup other than the odd valve rush noise. For the past 6 months I have used a Supratek Cabernet with the directly heated 101D triode, and it also has run faultlessly.
I have found that the predominant cause of concern with these pre's is noise generated by the valves themselves and picked up by the high-gain circuitry. It is not a problem with the pre itself, but the inconsistency/vaguaries that come with using valves, albeit coupled with the sensitivity of the pre. The newer Supratek models have adjustable or lower sensitivity which has addressed such concerns.
It is also a myth to think that there is such a thing as a completely safe audio component. Even big companies like Audio Research have their problems. I have heard and read plenty of horror stories about their earlier preamps and amps over heating with major repairs required. For example their Reference 600 monobloc amps ($30,000?) have 32 valves stuffed into a metal case mounted on printed circuit boards. This is a disaster waiting to happen! mixing valves & circuit boards in an enclosed cahssis is a big no-no, IMO.
At least with Supratek everything is hard wired, lots of free space within the chassis and all running relatively cool, so it gives peace of mind.
Also, B23 misses the point of the 700 or so posts on this thread - we have all taken the leap to Supratek based on the superb sound! And as ASA has mentioned, it's kind of the end of the road of a long steep (& expensive) learning curve for many of us. If you do not take the advice of someone like Grannyring who prefers the Syrah over $8,000US preamps like the Wavac and Audio Note then nothing will convince you. I know of another who prefers the Syrah to a CAT SL-1 pre he has. Consider also, that Grannyring has an older style Syrah, let alone the fact that the newer model Syrahs/Cortese/Grange take it all a step further.
Regards,
Steve M. |
Asa, after reading your post three times I'm still not sure what your point is.
Grannyring, trust Bwhite and many others who have rolled numerous tubes through the Supratek, the WE 350b's are excellent, along with the Mullard rectifier and the 6SN7's that were previously recommended. That is not to say that some other tubes aren't good, but none are "superior" to any of the "class-A" tubes, IMHO.
Considering your associated gear and experience, I simply don't see any need for you to listen to inferior tubes as has been suggested here just for some ethereal learning excerise.
And concerning the reliability of the Supratek, I can speak from first-hand experience. My Supratek arrived with a problem not directly attributed to Mick. However, he had me send it back to him at his expense, he repaired it in one day and immmediately sent it back to me at no charge. It doesn't get any better than that. And it has been perfect ever since. |
I have talked to Mick and the only area of change in the Syrah is the phono section. I only use the linestage and he told me that it has remained pretty much the same. Your right about the unit making noise as I have moved the power supply all around and still get a hum through my speakers. The only way I could stop it is by using cheater plugs on my monoblock amps and the pre!
Nothing else seems to work. I will be trying some NOS tubes and I will see what that does.
Another interesting note on my used Syrah. Mine has what looks to be the same three tube power supply as put on the Cortese. I assume this is an upgrade over the stock one tube power supply? I have not heard of another one like it.
Grannyring |
Is there anyone in Chicago with a Supratek preamp or amp? I would love to hear one! |
Are the Supratek amps just as good as the preamps? |
Stevem1960, I noticed that you have a Cabernet line stage. My questions are: (1) Is this the latest generation Cabernet; I understand there may have been a design change in the Grange/Cabernet since its introduction, (2) did you you have any experience with Supratek prior to acquiring the Grange and, most importantly, (3) can you enlighten us about its comparative performance with respect to any other line stages including Supratek models. |
Fiddler, OK. But I think you understood my point perfectly.
You don't respond there, at the point you dismiss me, but then later add, the "ethereal learning excercise" - which I assume is your actual response, albeit, and disappointingly, placed at a safe distance from your opening response/non-response. (Now, why would you do that...?)
So, let me explain: nothing is "ethereal" (read: irrational, in the context you use it) about recognizing learning curves. Giving someone the very best stuff right off the bat can sometimes lead down the wrong path IN THE LONG RUN. Why? Because the mind requires time to aclimatize to deeper experiences through progressive stimuli.
What does that mean? Well, it is not your ears listening, but your mind, and the way it goes "deeper" is through progressively receptive states, and such states, or their "allowing," necessarily requires a PROGRESSION of experience. What rate of progression is best from person to person is, of course, variant, but to claim that one can jump from SS to SE, or from GE 6551's to Mullard EL34's, or from...well, any area you can name that involves an increase of musicality (as opposed to an increase in accuracy, which the active mind identifies and which people can learn/identify faster) is itself a position that exposes its own lack of knowledge in this area, if not a denial of one's own experience.
I'm not saying that someone can't notice the difference, in quantitative terms and in qualitative terms, but not in qualitative terms TO THE DEGREE THAT MAY BE POSSIBLE without SUFFICIENT EXPERIENCE. Yes, they might know it was better, but the degree that they might be able to appreciate such better-ness might be more accentuated had a progression been employed. I think any experienced person in the hi-end who has consulted on system construction over a wide spectrum of people knows this as a given.
I don't know the gentleman originally referred to above - given his later responses I might, in fact, say go for the Kens - but as a general proposition - which is what we are discussing at this point - the point remains valid.
Bottomline: To deny experience, and that process - your position - is merely a symptom of greed for the next experience; to get there faster and faster. But, that type of greed is the bain of the hi-end; the greed for the experience of beauty through music, those two qualities - greed and beauty - are, experientially, EXCLUSIVE TO ONE ANOTHER; your desire to go faster to get "there" prevents you from seeing what you are missing along the way. When you get there, you don't know where you are, except that you can look down at your WE350B's and be sure, because you just have them, that you are there.
I hope that was clearer.
Mark |
Asa, so let me get this straight.
A guy goes to sell his Chevy - so he should buy a Buick before a Cadillac and the Cadillac before a Mercedes and the Mercedes before a Porsche 911 Turbo...so, "his mind, can go way "deeper" through progressively receptive states, and such states, or their "allowing," necessarily requires a PROGRESSION of experience."
That is the biggest crock of baloney I have ever heard. Have you been reading Dianetics!
If we were talking about cloning humans it might be important to take baby steps to learn as much as one could along the way, but tubes ain't a life or death proposition.
Or if one was a tube "seller" it would be important to listen to as many tubes as you could to advise customers, but in your rebuttal here you are simply trying to defend your convoluted logic.
Had you taken the time to read Grannyring's posts more carefully before you decided to interject your "learning" dissertation, you would have realized that Grannyring is not trying to learn how to crawl. Take a look at his associated equipment, "Opus 21 CD player directly into my Parasound Halo JC1's monoblocks...Khorus X11 speakers which go down to 17hz." I don't think he is interested in half-assed tubes for his Supratek!
Once again your advice to Grannyring to seek some sort of "ethereal" (read: "other-worldly"....perfect context!) learning experience borders on the absurd given the context of his system and his early posts.
My recommendations to him were not about, "greed for the next experience; to get there faster and faster". Instead, my reply was based on reading Grannyring's early posts and trying to recommend the best choices of tubes to compliment his associated equipment.
Using your rationale I guess I should suggest to him that when he buys his Porsche 911 Turbo he should run it for a while on regular gas versus premium so he can, quote: " notice the difference, in quantitative terms and in qualitative terms, but not in qualitative terms TO THE DEGREE THAT MAY BE POSSIBLE without SUFFICIENT EXPERIENCE."
Asa, I appreciate your tenacity to defend your clearly untenable position, but let's move on. |
Indeed let's move on, so for those of us that are contemplating purchase of a Supratek linestage, can anyone offer any observations on the relative performance among the following: Cabernet (latest production), Sauvignon (latest production), Sauvignon (older model) and Chardonnay. Keep it simple by just assessing the line stages or the line stage performance of their equivalent full-function counterparts (Grange, Cortese and Syrah respectively). |
Linkster
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I would suggest that you get either a Grange, Cortese or Syrah rather than a line stage only Supratek pre. The incremental cost of getting a model with the phono stage included is very little compared to the value (many believe the phono stage to be one of the best phono stages available) you get. Having both stages should greatly help your resale / demand (not that you will want to sell it anytime soon). You will also be more than set if you get into vinyl someday.
I have a Cortese that is about a year old and I have not heard the Grange nor I have I heard any of Mick's new iterations that started coming out late last year.
I think that either Steve 1960 or Mick can give you and informed / honest opinion as to how much the newer models have improved the various aspects.
I would also like to hear from anyone that might have heard either the new Cortese or Grange releases and how they stack up against the older models.
It would also be great to hear how much of an improvement that the Grange is over the Cortese on both the line and phono sections. |
Eccletique,
Any updates on the new NOS tubes used as regulators, which you believed will "hold it own with the esteemed WE 350b"
TJ |
I now have a Cortese to A/B verses the Syrah. I am also lucky enough to have a CJ Premier 16LS MKII , on loan, to go head to head against the " highly praised" Supratek models.
Thus far I wish the Syrah had more body, foundation and overall weight to the music. The CJ beats the Syrah in these areas, but is not as transparent. The CJ throws a larger stage also. I am only listening to CD's thus far. I will test the Cortese and update all on my progress. The Syrah was built in mid 2001 and I am not sure of the age of the Costese. Inside I noticed it was tweeked by "someone" with vibration deadening sheets.Serial number is RL136.
I understand much of the outcome will be based on system and room matching.
Grannyring |
Hi Guys,
I'm in the process of upgrading the tubes on the Sauvignon (Line Stage Cortese) and need some advice. I'm currently running the standard stock tubes at the moment.
If my main objective is to 'Tighten the Bass' and 'Increase the detail'. Any magic combination you would recommend ?
I've just acquired the Mullard GZ34 to be used as the rectifier as a start, and will place the tube into service once it arrives.
I've heard on this news group that using the Ken Rad's will result in Bass which is Not so tight in comparison to the Sylvania VT-231.
Any Thoughts.
Clipsal. |
Clipsal, the Sylvania VT-231 and Sylvania 6SN7GT tall-boy (green letterring and VT-231 construction) are probably the best choices for your tastes. I would get one pair of each and decide for yourself which you prefer. Roll the regulators while you are at it. |
Another 115 posts and this thread cracks a grand ! |
Fiddler?? Which type of Mullard GZ34 do you use? I mean, is there any particular vintage? Can you describe it? That's one rectifier I've never tried - I couldn't hear enough of a difference between the GZ37, GZ33 and GZ32 that I skipped right over the GZ34. Perhaps that was a mistake.
114 more posts to top 1K. |
After 2 years is this preamp still amazing?
This thread has been going just short of two years. I am wondering if those who bought these preamps a year or two ago are still thinking as highly of this preamp. I am very tempted to buy the Syrah from the raves posted on this thread and have contacted Mick asking about the delay (3-4 months currently). I guess I am mulling it over this weekend. I have a pair of Von Schweikert 4.5's being delivered today with the new Rotel RCD 1072 (another purchase I am making before hearing!) Any amplifier suggestions to mate with the Syrah with this combination?
Lastly, is the Cortese worth double the money? Thanks in advance to anyone who responds to this post. |
Fiddler: yea, you must right. I mean, what could I possibly know? If you need to defend a cognitive position so emotively, then I will let you have it, and stay there.
My exchange with fiddler, and those fiddler-like, has taught me something; it is a question to myself, arising over and over, about such things, collectively speaking, that I will now answer. Enjoy your pre's gentlemen.
|
Bwhite, I have several Mullard/Amperex 5AR4 vintages (so technically not GZ34, but the equivalent) and they all sound the same. Very consistent from tube to tube.
I have tried the stock 5Z4GT, the GZ 32, the CV5745/GZ33, Bendix 6106 and the Mullard 5AR4's and I much prefer the 5AR4/GZ34 to anything else. |
Well, I have been comparing the Cortese(stock tubes) to the the Syrah (stock tubes). Thus far I am only listening the line stage with my Resolution Audio Opus 21 player. The Cortese is better by what I consider a small margin. More refined and and in control is what I would say. Then my NOS tubes showed up. I ordered these based on the info Bwhite gave me on what NOS tubes to use in the Syrah. Thank you so much Bwhite and others. Your ears are very good. Now going head to head, the Syrah with a Mullard 5AR4/GZ34 and the Ken Rad black glass VT-231's vs. stock tube Cortese!
The winner - very close and it just comes down to personal taste. The bottom line is for the money the Syrah with these three tubes is a better value to me. It is half the price and with NOS's almost all of the sound, if not all, in the line stage anyway. I understand the phono is better on the Cortese also. I am still looking for KT-66's Genalex or 350B's. I am sure this will put the Syrah in the giant killer league. These last tubes just cost to much and I am not sure I will ever pay that much!
I also have a CJ 16LSII in my home for the weekend. I never though CJ was all that good, but I am dead wrong on this one. Forget what you hear about it being slow, thick, lush or whatever. To be frank I feel it bested both the Cortese and Syrah in my system - line stage only, but I cannot afford it even used. It is very transparent and beautiful sounding. It is in the same leauge as the two Supratek units in the highs and mids, however it has a little more bass weight and foundation. I do like this as it makes music sound more live to me! But remember the CJ costs $8500 new! The Syrah with the NOS's costs less than 1/3 and has phono! I also find the Syrah with the NOS tubes mentioned sounded 90% as good as the CJ in my system. Perhaps the KT66's or 350B's would then cause the Syrah to be on par or better than the CJ. This is amazing for the money folks. I mean amazing.
Outside of the costly 350B and KT66, please give me a NOS tube that is affordable to use in the power supply. My Syrah has three tubes like the Cortese in the power supply.
I did open it up and while both have 3 tubes they are very different on the inside. The Cortese has many more parts and is laid out more cleanly.
Grannyring |
Hi Baranya, this is Slowhand. I am the guy that started this thread and I still have my Syrah. I have enjoyed it from day one and have no, I repeat no plans to sell it. The first thing I do each day when I get home from work is to turn my system on and relax with some music. I doubt if I ever sell my Syrah. I know that Mick makes the more expensive pre's, but I am perfectly happy with the Syrah. I agree with the posts that suggest getting a Supratek pre with both line stage and phono stage. Even if you don't use the phono stage right now, you will someday if you want to hear what these preamps will really do. As for amp suggestions, I am using a Berning ZH270 amp and it is a beautiful match with my Syrah. Place your order with Mick, you will not regret it and it is worth the wait. |
Jim2...Did you and Tubegroover get a chance to hookup and compare the joule pre./amp. and the syrah / berning with your merlins?...If you did, i sure would be interested to read what you two experienced...Thanks for your time... |
Hey Grannyring! Great review! Are you SURE you don't have a Cortese? The photos of your pre are dead on CORTESE!!
I've compared the Cortese and Syrah extensively and must say that the sonics of each are quite similar - very little difference from a tonal standpoint. The Cortese is quieter, more solid and refined but aside from that.... its not really what *I* would call "better" if sheer value is what you seek. It is however better in a more intangible way - difficult to explain. At a certain point in this hobby we begin paying big bucks for certain refinements which are ultimately, not necessary unless the rest of a system climbs above a certain level - which exceeds the performance of the lower-priced-less-refined component. I've been up and down with my system and there was a time when I felt my Chardonnay was perhaps the weak link. I have yet to feel that way with the Cortese.
As for the NOS tubes.... Glad you like the Ken's. They're great but they are an acquired taste.. (I believe that's what Asa was referring to in above posts) There are many great tubes to try & when you identify a combo which complements your system & tastes, put it up to the CJ again and you'll be amazed at how much better the Syrah becomes - then, stick those tubes in the Cortese and you're likely to understand why the Cortese is twice as expensive. There is just something unquestionably right about it.
The prices for NOS tubes (350B's) is scary.... but I would expect them to last a lifetime when used in the Supratek. So... a 200-300 investment isn't all that bad for the gains.
Other tubes to try - relatively inexpensive...
Regulator
Sylvania 5932 double black plate (nice)
Philips 7581A (massive impact! & dynamics)
Rectifier
Bendix 6106 (mixed reviews - but still worth trying)
RCA 5V4G (clear, open and detailed) |
Thanks for the reply Fiddler! Looks like I'm going GZ34 / 5AR4 shopping!! :) Loving the 350B's right now after a few power cord changes in my system.
Do you have the National Union 350B or the Western Electric 350B? I'm currently using the NU but the box says they were "Manufactured by Western Electric Co. Inc." and packaged in March 1945.
Some folks claim the WE is flat out better - others say there is no difference - same tube, different label. I am curious to know your thoughts on this. |
Bwhite, my 350 B's are WE's but I suspect the NU's are exactly the same tube. You might want to ask in the Tube Asylum. I am sure someone there can give you a definitive answer.
Grannyring, I know that Bryan isn't as big of a fan as I am of the 6L6 metal tube, but I liked them even better than the GEC KT 66's. And they are about $35 a tube. If I wasn't running WE 350 B's I would use the 6L6 metals.
I know the isolation issue was debated here earlier, but in my system I found a solution that worked wonders. I ordered the DH Labs large cones and put them under my Supratek on top of a piece of 12 x 12 slate - not tile, but a cheap slate from India that I found at Lowes. When you tap this slate there is no ring, just a dead thud. I thought what the heck, I'll try it. Under the slate is another layer of material I also found at Lowes. It is an inter-locking mat that is sold for garage floors, weight rooms, etc. I cut a 12 x 12 piece of this material, which has a 1/16 inch thick hard plastic outer shell laminated to a tough 1/2 inch resilient foam. Under this foam I put a 12 x 12 piece of Sorbothane with another piece of the foam under the Sorbothane and another piece of slate under that with one more piece of foam under the slate resting on the MDF shelf.
The resolution and soundstage is amazing when the Supratek is resting on this sandwich. A deaf person could here the difference. As clear as I thought my system was before, it is laughable how big the difference is since employing this combination. And the most expensive part is the sheet of Sorbothane.
I now have all of my components on this same sandwich and I am thrilled with the results. Only my transport is not sitting on this combo, resting instead on a Neuance shelf which is even more amazing.
Since I plan on over-hauling my entire system in about 9 months, I haven't ordered more Neuance shelves, but I highly recommend them. My home-made shelf seems to be very close to the Neuance shelf, but I suspect it adds some color to the sound that the Neuance shelf doesn't. But I can happily live with whatever color my home-made solution may be adding.
I did not find cones and an isolation sandwich for the power supply section as beneficial as the linestage, but the PS does sit on one of my DIY isolation sandwichs. If you don't have your Supratek isolated yet, you may want to try it. It made this giant killer even better for me. YMMV
When I upgrade my System, I suspect I will seriously consider the Grange or Cabernet, but after reading about the H-Cat, I would love to hear one. If it as good or better than the Suprateks, I would probably go with the H-Cat to avoid the hassle of tubes, but I am skeptical that the H-Cat will better the Grange. Just a guess, but as good as my Chardonnay is with NOS tubes, I can only imagine how good the Grange must be. |
Thanks Slowhand for your response and your decision to take a chance on a component with little to no press. I have greatly enjoyed reading through the thread and most likely will order the Syrah in the next day or two. I have always been a David Berning fan when I owned an EA 230. I have been on an audio hiatus for the past 5 years or so imposed by a divorce that divested me of my large vintage audio collection. I have been looking for a very musical system that I can enjoy and leave the collecting world behind. Something I can enjoy for the next 10 years or so without needing to look at every stereo rag out there. I have been reading of the Berning amp you are using. I am wondering which speakers you use them with. I bought a pair of Von Schweikert 4.5's and the dealer is letting me use his Sophia integrated temporarily. I have some updated Dyna mk 4's that I will use until I buy a more modern amp. Do you think the Berning and the Syrah would mate well with the Von Schweikerts? Thanks for starting all this fun! |
I had my ZH-270 hooked up to some VSA VR4Gen3SEs the other day and they sounded quite good. TONS of bass and more than enough power. I think that for R&R, that would be fantastic combo. |
Hi Stiltskin
Jim and I haven't done a comparison since Jim seems undecided on the pre-amp but is leaning towards the Joule. He is also considering the Cortese I believe but don't tell him I told ya :^) It will probably be several months down the road if he does order the Joule.
Hi Baranyi
I also have the Berning/Syrah combo with Merlins. I would expect the Berning would work very well with Von Scheikerts so long as the impedance doesn't drop below 4 ohms. Of course there is a feedback adjustment for lower impedances but I find the low feedback setting on the amp preferable. The power especially at 70 watts must be experienced to be appreciated. I've never heard it run out of gas, that is the music never compresses like many tube amps seem to when the going gets tough. It is a great match with the Syrah in that they compliment each other quite well, the liquid transparency of the Syrah with the clear, dynamic unflappable Berning. |
Hello Gang. A while back, I posted an alternative tube that can hold its own with the ultra expensive Western Electric 350B when employed as regulators in the supratek. I have been using a pair of 6F6g [ST bottle shape] from the 1930's in my Syrah for more than a month now.Mine are labelled rogers, however, I believe they were made by National Union[the company that first developed the 350b]. These power pentodes are slightly smaller than the 350b and their internals are almost indentical. Do "not" use the 6F6 metals[developed first] as they do not sound the same as the later glass tubes.These 6F6 power pentodes preceeded the more common 6V6 beam tetrode tubes and were used mostly in old radios and consols of the day.They should be relatively cheap and easy to source with a little searching as there is virtually no demand for these tubes today.The 6F6g will amaze you in the supratek! They sound so much like the 350b its simply a no brainer. |
Thanks for the response Tubegroover. I am very tempted to order both the Berning and the Syrah. I really am looking for something that I can use for a decade happily. I have been considering the Syrah for the last week and I have always been attraced to Berning amps. This seems like a real winner of a combo that would be hard to beat at anywhere near the cost. Thanks again! |
