Hi Guys,
I'm in the process of upgrading the tubes on the Sauvignon (Line Stage Cortese) and need some advice. I'm currently running the standard stock tubes at the moment.
If my main objective is to 'Tighten the Bass' and 'Increase the detail'. Any magic combination you would recommend ?
I've just acquired the Mullard GZ34 to be used as the rectifier as a start, and will place the tube into service once it arrives.
I've heard on this news group that using the Ken Rad's will result in Bass which is Not so tight in comparison to the Sylvania VT-231.
Any Thoughts.
Clipsal. |
Hi Slowhand,
I've had the line stage version of the Cortese (Sauvignon) for about 6 months now, and have just started experimenting with Tube Rolling, with vast array of information and feedback on this thread.
I've replaced the Rectifier with the Mullard GZ34 and the 6SN7's with a pair of Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231.
Initially upon replacing the Rectifier with the GZ34, the system sounded just a tad leaner with little or no loss in detail (Not much of a change after 1 week of usage).
But when I replaced the stock 6SN7 with the Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231, the improvement was immediate, extremely good bottom (Supurb Slam) with a glorious mid-range (Just put these babies in about 2 hours ago), after it's delivery by Australia Post this morning. The vocals which were once a little veiled, probably due in part to the Krell KSA-250 amplifier, is now completely brought to life. The detail is incredible, with a complete and utter transformation. I never thought changing these tubes could make such a difference. Hence the perplexation lately with some of the other comments on thread with regards to the Ken Rads (Microphonic, very little difference etc...)
Furthermore, the Sauvignon with the Ken Rads has no Microphonic qualities. I've tried tapping various parts of the Main unit and power supply, with no microphonics what so ever. Dead Quiet.
Just a question, If the bass is now very deep with an extraordinary level of detail, do you guys believe replacing the last remaining set of tubes (Regulator pair) with the 6F6G will make any more changes to it's character. Further to that, is the 6F6G a suitable replacement on the Sauvignon, I know some of the readers have replaced this component on the Syrah, but what about on the Sauvignon.
I just trying to think how the 6F6G can have any other improvements in light of the transformation that's already just taken place.
Thanks to everyone to date with their inputs. The information over the past year has been extremely informative, You guys know what you're talking about. Afterall it's not easy to purchase a piece of stereo equipment sight unseen and most importantly sound unheard.
Best Regards,
Clipsal |
Okay,
I've finally just a received a pair of Sylvania 6F6G tubes for the regulator and have had the system with the Sauvignon (Cortese Line Stage) running for around 2 hours now.
The Verdict: The system has not yet blown up, which is a good sign. The sound is little beefier, with certain instruments being brought out a little more. The extra deep bass maybe just a little too deep with the Ken Rads also plugged into the pre-amp. I suppose a more comprehensive listening test, with adaquate break-in time may make a difference.
Rectifier: Mullard GZ34
Regulator: Sylvania 6F6G with green letters
6SN7 : Ken Rad VT-231 Black Glass
Any thoughts as to this combination ? The Tung Sol Round Plates might make a better combination with the 6F6G. Although having said that, the Tung Sols are almost impossible to acquire here in Australia. |
Hi,
If the Sauvignon bass is too deep with the 6F6G & Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231 combination. Do any of you believe that a Sylvania VT-231 & 6F6G would make a dynamic combination. ie. All the strengths of great detail (Sylvania) with the deep bass of the 6F6G.
If the Sylvania is plausible in this scenario. Any particular of of Sylvania VT-231/6SN7 type of tube one should be looking out for. There are so many different variations of this tube.
It's just that Tung Sol Round Plates are still very difficult to get hold of, even from Bob at TubeSeller (Thanks for the tip Cello, thats where I purchased the Ken Rads from about a months ago).
Hence the thought of a Sylvania & 6F6G combination. Would this work ?
Cheers |
I posted an earlier comment regarding the Synergy of using the Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231 and a pair of Sylvania 6F6G tubes. I commented that the sound although very good was a little too overpowering. With big bassy sound tracks the bass would seem a little bloated with a moderate loss in the tightness of the bass.
Anyway, I've decided to empty my wallets and acquire a pair of NOS WE 350B tubes. They should arrive shortly, upon which I'll provide some feedback as to their performance.
According to Ecclectique, he stated the 6F6G come quite close to the performance of the WE 350B tube. I'm actually hoping that the WE 350B will provide a little more tightness in the bass then the 6F6G. If so, then I believe the 350Bs will provide the type of sound that I'm looking for.
This thread is by far one of the the most interesting postings of any forum, that I've come across in recent years. Let's keep it going. |
Dracule1
Only the gain for the 6H30 section (Bass) can be adjusted NOT the 101D. |
I just recieved a pair of NIB WE 350B's today and installed the insanely priced tubes in place of the 6F6G's, currently in service.
Ecclectique is correct, the 6F6G sound very similar to the 350B's with the real difference being a slightly less glorified bass and mid range treatment as noticed on the 6F6G's. It does seem on the surface, that the 350B's tend to have a little more detail, but proper burn-in time will really tell the story. Please note, do not take this comments as gospal as this result is system dependant and also very much dependant on speaker placement in the room. By moving my listening position around 3 feet forward resulted in less of booming effect as noticed with both the 6F6g's and the WE 350B. The booming effect is most likely due to the listening position, where the rear lounge is placed up against the back wall, thus amplifying the bass effect.
So, are the 350B's worth 8 times the asking price of the 6F6G's. Probably not, but don't let that stop you. Try it for yourself, your milage may vary.
Having said that, I still find the lower treble to be a little weak and the bass still not as tight as it could be. This Phenomena is probably due to the Ken Rad VT-231 Black Glass. I've ordered a pair of Tung Sol Round Plates as suggested by Cello, and they should arrive in the land down under in around 10 days. I'll keep you posted as to the results.
I think it's time to seriously start rotating the various tubes in my collection, to hit upon the magic sound I'm looking for, which is probably the same as everyone else's holy grail, Brillant highs, rich mids with strong, deep tight bass.
Note: Tubes Currently on duty in Sauvignon:
Rectifier: Mullard GZ34
Regulator: WE 350B was using 6F6G (Sylvania Green Letters)
6SN7 : Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231
Any thoughts?
Cheers |
I just received a pair of Tung Sol round plates 6SN7 GT black glass and plugged them over two days to evaluate the sound in conjunction with the WE 350B used as regulator and Mullard GZ 34 as rectifier in the Sauvignon.
The sound is now very much un-offensive, with lots of detail, correct bass definition and timbre, with no real emphasis on any particular frequency. I suppose it sounds great, but, I don't thing it grabs and captivates the listener.
Setup:
1. WE 350B
2. Tung Sol Round Plates 6SN7 GT - Black Glass
3. Mullard GZ 34
Then I tried the following combination, with the result being a slightly stronger bass definition, with the still non-offensive, neutral sound.
1. Sylvania 6F6G
2. Tung Sol Round Plates 6SN7 GT - Black Glass
3. Mullard GZ 34
Earlier, when using the following combination, the sound had a very rich, seductive mid-range, which totally captivated the listener at the expense of a very strong, bloated bass definition. The vocals sounded so real, it was almost scary.
1. Sylvania 6F6G
2. Ken Rad VT-231 Black Glass
3. Mullard GZ 34
The following combination resulted in a similar sound to the previous, but with slightly less bass, but stil bloated.
1. WE 350B
2. Ken Rad VT-231 Black Glass
3. Mullard GZ 34
I hope this run down helps in your quest to fine tune the pre-amp to your musical taste.
Does anyone else have any ideas as to whether it's possible to maintain a real seductive mid-range, whilst maintaining the correct timbre for bass definition ? |
Thanks Jazzdude, will give it a try.
I'll keep you posted as to the results. |
Hi,
Would anyone be interested in the Supratek Sauvignon. About 7 months old. Usually used for around 1 hour every two weeks or so. Jarrah with polished stainless steel finish. Absolutely mint condition with Remote, XLR Output and home theatre pass through and original 2 packing fed-ex containers.
Since being a new father, finding quiet time for listening to music is extremely rare.
Regards |
I have in my posession a vast array of tubes ranging from WE350B, Tung Sol round plates 6SN7 Black Glass, Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231, Sylvania JAN-CHS-VT231, Mullard GZ34, Sylvanis 6F6G, RCA VT-232 Grey Glass, Sylvaina 6SN7GT, Raytheon 6SN7-WGT, etc.... the list goes on and one.
All I can say is stop, step back, take a deep breath, and walk into the un-chartered territory that most of us have NOT known. It taken 3 years of owning a Supratek to get to this point. A complete round trip, back to where I started and the answer was sitting in my face as clear as daylight all along.
Other tubes may sound different, and yes they really sound different in my system, Each new tube inserted makes a difference. But at the end of the day the Supratek was optimised for a particular set of valves, yes folks, the ones included with the unit, when the unit arrived at your door step and you had that big grin on your face. When you opened the Federal Express box(s) with the included Sovtek 5AR4, Sovtek 6SN7 and Electro Harmonix 6L6, with a tear thinking, yes, yes the time has finally come.
Stop and listen to the original tubes, I think you may be pleasently surprised as to the calibre and the way it competes with NOS tubes. Best way to test this theory is to take all the NOS tubes out, dust off the Stock tubes sitting in the back drawer of a cupboard as mine where, plug them in and brace your self.
It does not get much better that that...Loads of Detail, Sonic Balance that does not tend to emphasise one area at expense of another, smooth and liquidy as one friend said today.
P.S. Remember to leave all the components on for at least 24 hours before passing judgement.
Happy Listening,
Fellow Audiophile (Learner) |
I've spoken to Mick about using the Bendix, he said the voltages are a little different. He said the safer bet is the Mullard GZ34 |
Hi all,
I have a Cabernet Dual which was hopefully shipped today to Sydney.
I plan to use the 101D pre-amp section going into a pair of 13E1 SET mono amplifiers (30 watts) and the 6H30 pre-amp section going to a seperate subwoofer. The 13E1 will hopefully power the 2 way loudspeaker full range.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
Btw, this is my second Supratek, my first was a Sauvignon, which I sold to a friend.
Cheers |
I think will soon make v-caps as standad equipment on the top end models. My Cabernet Dual came with v-caps.
Btw, Nice sound, big weighty sound compared to running Audio Aero Capitole MKII direct. |
Not sure what the V-Cap values are. I'll ask him next time and post the results.
On a different note, I noticed the Cab Dual has both XLR and RCA Inputs. Is anyone able to describe the differences, since I don't have a pair of XLR cables to comment. Mick said the Dual is fully balanced, thus, one should just try and compare. |
I do have to agree with Srajan, the 101D is something very special. I have the Cab Dual and the 6H30 is great on the bass, but the 101D is truely magical in the mids/highs, so much air and detail, it's intoxicating. It's light years ahead of the Sauvignon, which I owned before for around 3 year.
Btw, any good vibration/damping advice, as the 101D are very susceptable to slight taps on the glass. You don't really hear it in the music, but I'm sure every little bit counts. |
I think the bass is pretty good, detail is there but could be a little tighter. In that case you would just use the 6H30 part of the pre-amp circuit for the ultimate response. |
Anyone started tube rolling their Cabernet Dual yet ? |
Just wondering if anyone has used the genuine Bendix 6106 on the Cabernet Dual or similar. I've got 2 of these lying around but want to ensure nothing blows up. They worked quite well on my previous Sauvignon.
Thanks |
To all those Cabernet especially Cabernet Dual owners. What are you guys using for the Rectifier.... Mullard GZ24 or the Bendix 106. I have both, but am reluctant to try as the power supply gets very hot. I'm kind of afraid it my blow the valve.
I'm also interested in knowing whether anyone is using a different regulator valve such as the Western Electric 350B or the Tung-Sol KT66 as I also have both types of valves sitting in boxes at the moment, but again afraid to try due to the heat generated on the power supply unit.
If anyone is using those above mentioned valves, I'd be very interested in your thoughts about what those valves do above and beyond the standard set that Mick supplies with the unit.
Btw, I had a Sauvignon pre-amp prior to the Dual and the power supply only used to get luke warm. Mick assures me it's perfectly normal for the Cabernet Dual power supply to get very hot.
Thanks. |
Sorry that previous posting should read Mullard GZ34 or the Bendix 6106. I also realise the Bendix is not recommended in the Cabernet Dual, especially by Mick due to voltage differences. |
I got a Cabernet Dual (latest one) and noticed that if I replace the Sovtek KT66 regulators with the Western Electric 350B I get a little more bass, but that bass is a little bloated. Thus, in order to rectify that issue I went back to the Sovtek KT66.
I used to have the Sauvignon before and the WE 350B was fantastic in that model.
Anyone out there have any experience with tube rolling on the "Cabernet Dual" as I'd be very interested as to your impressions.
Many Thanks, |
I'm using the stock Electro Harmonix 6SN7 as it's not used as the driver in this particular pre. I do have the following stashed away from my Sauvignon days:
Ken Rad black glass VT-231
RCA grey glass VT-231
Tung Sol round plates 6SN7 black glass
Sylvania 6SN7GT
Ratheon 6SN7
Mullard GZ34
Bendix 6106 (not recommended by Mick in Dual)
I do have a pair of Sylvania 6F6G stashed away somwhere, that I can use including a pair of Tung-Sol KT66 (Russian)
Any thoughts? |
Hi Powers,
You are correct in my Cabernet Dual, the 6sn7s drive both the 6H30 and the 101 stages. The bass bloat occurs with the 101D section with WE350B as I'm only using the 101D section.
The Sovtek KT66 is not bad, just a little etchy with a little less depth than the WE350B
The Sylvania 6F6G I have is the standard "G" version with a black base and a silvery top
Powers, do you use the Dual ?
Sorry V21, I have three friends who both want my Bendix as I have two of them.
Cheers |
I like the new Cabernet Dual. It's quite different to the Sauvignon. The 101D imparts a holographic image which outclasses the Sauvignon and the top end is simply sublime.
I decided to go for the Dual, simply because I felt I had hung on too long with the Sauvignon. I had the old one for about 3 years prior.
I tried the Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231 JAN CKR-6SN7GT VT-231 in the Dual and am very impressed. This baby packs a large wallop in the bass department and is not at all wolly and flabby in my current setup. The Ken Rads also have a little more body in the mid-range.
One of my friends was commenting that he felt there was a small hole in the mid-range that shut out some parts of the vocal frequency range and made many of the vocals to sound a little recessed (eg. similar depth in presentation to the instruments). This could be due to the room I think, but the Ken Rads may have rectified this issue somewhat for the time being. I'll let you know when my Audiophile buddy comes over again.
My current set of speakers is the WHT PR-1 (http://www.whtspeakers.com), which are a pair of 2-way horn loaded ribbons. This explains why I'm only running one half of the pre-amp at the moment. The 101D section is connected to PR-1 completely. Even though the speakers are bi-wireable, it would not make sense to connect the ribbon tweeter to the 101D and the mid-range/woofer to the 6H30.
I'm planning to pick up the matching WHT active subwoofer and connect that directly to the 6H30 section using the RCA inputs/outputs. This should hopefully rectify the situation, and will keep my fingers crossed. |
Hi Dracule1,
Originally the Cabernet Dual was noisy as I noticed it had a quite a bit of hum coming from the power supply. Amazingly, after placing the Dual on my new Audiav Crystal Rack, the noise has completely vanished (dead quiet). Go figure ?
In terms of background noise coming from the speakers, it might be wise to adjust the gain on the amplifier. Similar to the feature on Mick's amplifiers. My amplifier was hand made by a guy here in Sydney, so I just went there again and asked him to retrofit an adjustable gain and feedback control for each of the mono-blocks. This then allows one to perfectly tune the pre-amp to the amplifiers.
Thus, after having the adjustable gain incorporated, I just turned down the gain a little from the default factory setting on the amplifier and wollah, NO hum or noise from the speakers. Btw, the speakers in the current incarnation are around 98 DB sensitivity. |
I've tried using only the 6H30 section and it sounds a quiet sterile. Really need the 101D to get the magic. |
The Midrange sounds sublime with the 101D including a very extended top end. Plus the amount of detail retreived is astonishing with this valve. I have two other friends who both have the Sauvignon model commenting on the sound quality of Mick's pre with the 101D section. |
All Supratek owners may want to read this short article by Srajan from 6moons on cap rolling (v-caps) and why he's going back to the stock Auricaps.l
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/caprolling/caps.html |
Hi Powers,
I've got two v-caps in my Cabernet Dual as well as a whole bunch of Auricaps. Mick did say the V-Caps in mine are in the position that make the most difference. I'm also considering removing them as I don't find the Cabernet Dual as musical as the Sauvignon, I had earlier. A lot more detail yes, but maybe not as musically satisfying. The detail is probably more due to the 101D section of the pre-amp then the capacitors. |
For the Cabernet Dual has anyone tried bi-amping using this preamp on a two-way pair of speakers that can be bi-wired.
I've just hooked up a pair of 2A3 monoblocks to the 101D section which feeds the ribbon tweeter on the speakers and a pair of 13E1 monoblocks to the 6H30 section of the pre-amp which feeds the woofer.
The sound is fantastic, but am thinking some of that mid-range magic is compromised. Any thoughts ? |
kgturner,
I also had a hum issue from one channel with my Cab Dual, but effectively reduce it by turning down the gain on the amps. A futher reduction in hum was obtained by re-routing the two umbilical cords on the Dual. |
Just to add a little competition to the mix, I'll be willing to off-load my Cabernet Dual for $14.5k |
Guys, I'll also throw in shipping and handling.
On second thoughts why sell an absolute classic. What could I possibly replace the Dual with? It's taken me almost a decade to get to this point in my pursuit of hi-fi bliss. I mean let's face it, how many other pre-amp manufacturers make a product like the "Dual" (two in one effectively)?
I may just hang onto this little baby like a 1955 Penfolds Grange.
Sorry everyone. |
